DentyDao

And we can add stupidity to yours. Time to move out of Mom's basement and get your own apartment in New Jersy. As Plato said, 'You are a fake seeker.' I couldn't agree more. Get off your ass and do something usefull. Your existence should have a point. God damn that felt good. Bring it on Spyrodork. The great irrelevent one has graced us with his wisdom once again!!! Good lord, you are the biggest geek to ever walk the planet and the only one who doesn't see it. No one gives a shit Pat. A couple months ago you were down in the dirt bragging about how you're going to make me suck your dick like some idiotic teenager. Now you pretend to be some wise sympathic old soul who swoops in and gives his sage advice and says how sorry for me he is. Your a joke. Your no worse or better off or more knowlegdable than anyone on this site and your in no position to make judgements. It's really not about ME. Stop pretending to care when the reality is you only care about your self and being popular here because this is your only real social outlet and these people are your only friends. That's fine, but stop pretending that your so wonderful and kind and trying to be the best you can be. If that were the case you would have dropped your fixation with me a long time ago. YOU NEVER EVEN TRIED TO IGNOR ME. You just keeeeep poooossting the same tired statements about how misguided I am and how wonderful you and your friends are over and over and over and over again. It's practically your hobby. When are you really going to go to China or are you really going. When are you going to hold a mirror up to your self and take a good look at your own actions and nerosis. Most of the people on this thread have come to the point of just making silly jokes about the whole affair, but you continue with your 'serious concerns' no one gives a damn, really nobody cares. This is the internet so just get over it.

I have to admit, I do like this more assholish side of SeanO more than the PC peace maker he used to be, at least more so. I think he's evolving into a more passionate admin and setting a example of, 'If your going to play, get down in the dirt and play and stop fucking around.' Maybe we can just all start insulting eachother more as a rule; kind of break the ice and provide some much needed therapy for Cameron who has been repressing is rage since grade school and frankly needs to unload on some poor bastard who has no idea what he's in for. I think we all need to get more in touch with our inner warrior. In a non-violent way of course. This God Damn PC world view we are transitioning into is basically the castration of the American male. It's reflected in most popular TV shows where Dads are always the buttheads who fuck everything up. Robert Bly talks about this in his writing which I recommend to every man over thirty who has kids. His book called 'Iron John' is groundbreaking. He like the deviant Joseph Cambell... in a good way. Anyway, that's the beauty of the internet, you can't slap someone for disagreeing with you

First tennis, then dancing, now wacking off. My gaydar just exploded dude, back the fuck off

For a guy who started a Daoist website, this seems a little ironic. Maybe you should change the name of your forum to Freebums... or Modernbums or Newwaybums... The Taoism thing seems a little misleading at this point. Unless that term has no real meaning to you other than the literal translation.

Darin, David would like to invite you to participate in a discussion based on the letter you have written here. You would need to log into the Foundation Forum. Up to you. If you like you can post your letter on the Faoundation Forum in the direct questions section. Just so you know David has asked his master, Wang Liping, to grant him permission to reveal certain closed door topic in order to explain things more clearly. Should be educational. Link to Foundation Forum Best, S

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Vidiami tells you to straighten your spine out and you think this has something to do with foundation or might have. I don't think the karma of one person will cause any big problems in the world. I'm more concerned that a fellow student understand the expectation of our school and that people don't get deluded. In the end Vidiami is really the only one this affects in a 'big' way. It's really pretty simple and no, in the larger picture, not that important. But still it's important to have accountability.

This may be the case. More power to you. David is making a video the Xing Shen Zhuan next year for people to enjoy. This is not the part of the practice at issue. It's just a qigong form that David teaches to support the practice. I will say that it is the most effective and dramitic, interms of results, form that I have ever emcountered. There are many people teaching it around Mt. Emei and several versions, some more effective than others. What's at issue is the foundation practice that Shifu Wang Liping teaches. This info is not in the public domain, even if it was you would need the background in the principles and methods, plus effective transmission and the guidence of a qualified teacher. If people can find these elements elsewhere and put it into practice effectively, I say good for them. That's their business. They would have a solid basis in the basics. BTW, there are other teachers out there who are qualified and teach sound methods. Some people here behave as if I'm presenting a monopoly. The truth is not this extreme, yes they are rare, but they are there for those who look hard enough.

Pietro, It's clear I have struck deep nerve with you. I can only suggest you take a good look at what your doing and the motives for your actions. David made his wishes on the matter of the post in question extremely clear. I personally could really care less what you say or think.

One more note: not if David and his teachers have anything to say about it. He intentially structures his seminar, as do many Daoist masters, so that the first course is the basic, general stuff. Critical teaching is left out and reserved for close students. This is probably not going to change anytime in the next millenium. Anyone who has notions of taking David's course and 'reporting back' to the Taobums or in any public way would not be welcome back and, the only reason I have been so open is because I have express permission from David to do so. If this turns people off or makes them less interested, good. That is what it's intended to do. You and others have made it clear that you don't agree with this way of doing business, but it's not about business. You are out of your depth and have not even the faintest clue what the tradition that I speak of is about. So why bother attacking it and trying to undermine it when you can never succeed in doing that and don't understand it in the first place. Some of David's students who share similar views have gone to rediculas lengths to get to David's teachers. Contacting them privately and offering huge sums of money. Everyone wants a piece of immoratality. What they fail to understand is that the masters know, just by looking, what's in your heart. It's really not about power games, it's just that there is a gate between the throngs of ignorant seekers and the Heavens. If you want to come in, you have to forget your stupid western ideas about personal freedom and self serving illusions of altruistic grandure; you have to surrender to a greater authority, something most westerners have a great fear of doing and most would never think of it; especially Americans. This is the traditional path to Sainthood in the Daoist canon; it's why we use the term Master. Master here means the same thing as Guru; one who dispells the darkness. Everything that you do you do for the master. I know it's sounds so foreign to American ears, but we forget, with all the health craze around Yoga, what the term really means. YOGA; it means to Yoke to, or to bind yourself to the master. In this process, the student has to be willing of course and he must surrender his identity; the mind must become one with the master. This is why real power and achievement will always be beyond the reach of the ego. It's why so many fail to achieve, they fear the surrender. It's to much for the mind to take or they think they will become a slave or be tricked. It is why the Dao is like a razors edge. When your Guru one day reveals for you the face of God, you will understand that it's not about being a slave. You will thank your Guru for cutting out the sickness that is your ego, like a good doctor, the Master has to have your total trust and surrender to cut you open and remove the cancer of the limited self cherishing of our pride that say we need to be in control. It's a lot swallow, I understand and I do have compassion. It's a process that takes time to see clearly. Let the shit storm rain down!!!!

SeanO, LOL. Anyway, I'm glad for the people who felt there was something positive in my contribution here. I recieve many many emails of positive support every month from people expressing their thanks for my 'work' here in light of all the idiotic remarks and attitudes which I feel are the minority here. You have to understand that I'm just sharing from a personal perspective as 'just another member.' And the Foundation forum now has over three hundred members who seem to share my enthisiam for David's teaching and the perspective it represents. We all seem to get along fine, and certainly there are different views and guidelines as well. As you know I don't mince words with the members here; part of the problem is that many of your members were rude and made silly stupid, disrespectful comments from the beginning. Some equally if not more rude than mine. My response is who gives a shit as well, so on that we agree. I prefer to focus on the positive that comes out of these exchanges. In any case, David will be contacting Pietro or relaying a message through me shortly to request that he remove the description. As you know from Vidiami's PM to you, this is his wish as well. Problem solved. Cheers, Sean

It's perfectly good point, but this is exactly the attitude that creates further seperation between the two parties. Trust me, I would be writing a book about the practice and teaching it for free if there were no restrictions, but David's teachers have their reasons to do what they do and I respect that tradition while I'm a part of it. The big reason is to protect the integrety of the lineage and keep ineffective practice from being spread or half truths and misconceptions from being created. This is what happens with big schools. The techniques methods and teaching get watered down and become a useless shadow by comparrison. It's important to respect this traditional way, even if we don't always like it. This is a rule in many successful groups and school; Kriya Yoga comes to mind, etc... It's also about the bond of trust that is created between master and student, which in many ways is deeper than marriage. David is the 19th generation lineage holder of the Dragon Gate that is lead by Wang Liping. It's not for him to question the guidelines of his teachers. When he himself achieves and becomes the leader of his lineage, it will be up to him to call the shots, but until that time, the tradition will remain traditional in that regard.

Hi Pietro, Your pathetic nonsense and warped sensabilities are of no concern to me. You're lost in a world of petty jealousy and have no real understanding of the issue. Vidiami, once he realized what he did wrote the following: 1. "I know - I'm sorry. This thread wasn't supposed to be about the practice. I tried to keep the description as general as possible, but I probably should've said even less. And it would have been better to say nothing. Anyway - I will talk no more of the practice details." 2. "Ok, I removed the description. And again I'm sorry." 3. "I will contact David. I will also post an apology and I will ask webmaster to remove any referencies to the description I wrote. The reason I started this thread was because of differencies in price info and nothing else. You wrote I was ignorant not realizing how offending my description would be - and obviously, in light of what passed since, you're absolutely right. When I wrote the description I really tried to be general and I thought it would be ok. But of course, I was wrong. So I'm sorry. Sincerely, Vidiami" CLEARLY PIETRO, YOU LACK THE SIMPLE UNDERSTANDING OF THIS VERY SIMPLE ISSUE. IT'S ABOUT RESPECT AND HONOR AND INTEGRITY; QUALITIES WHICH YOU CLEARLY LACK. Vidiami on the other hand is just a nice guy who made an understandable mistake. And since he has no hang-ups or insecurity to defend, he did right thing and didn't hesitate in his actions. This is the way of our tradition. The masters have always asked that the practices and descriptions of the practice be kept private. It's not something we expect others to understand, but it is our way and we hope that people respect our way. Comments and concerns like the ones you and Spyrelx made have no meaning, relavence or weight. I'm sorry, that the truth of the matter. Sincerely, S Pietro, rest assured, I have been in contact with David throughout this affair and your action will be shared with him. He made it very clear that Vidiami's actions are totally inappropriate. In fact his words were, "Tell the guy to Shut UP!" I can assure you that you are NOT David's friend in this matter and that I am acting in the best interest of my teacher. Now please get a life.

I PM'd him and asked him if he would step in earlier today. He says he remains impartial and the forum is an 'open space;' apparently he just steps in if things get really crazy. Which basically means, Gotch ya now sucker, pay back for all the adyshanti comments I guess. I can respect that, but I can't protect him from the immortal wrath... That's another joke. Anyway, it's a respect issue. I think Vidiami will do the right thing.

Gotch ya! Oh that was rich! Actually David was upset about it and did say there is a confidentiallity agreement and that he expects all his students to respect that the practice is not to be discussed openly. He would also really like you (Vidiami) to please contact him. Thank you As for the price difference, he is checking with Jette. My understanding is that things have changed for new students, including Danish and other European varieties. Of course return students do get a considerable price break. In anycase, it's possible it's just a hiccup in communication with the Danish contingent, as David was totally unaware. S

Dab nabbit.

David did say that, but later qualified his statement saying that he was with Master Nan ten years ago. Things can change in ten years. He said the achievements that he has attained are real, but of a different order and not really comparable. I only mention it because I also asked David's opinion on Nan over a year ago.

That's not the version I read. I think David's main critique is that Master Nan's Knowledge of Daoism in a broad sense is some what limited, but that he is a very respectable teacher and so are his teachers in Taiwan.

Thank for clarifying your position. I think we pretty much agree honestly. My only point would be that, while it is certainly not entirely up to us, we can use our own wisdom and the guidence of those who have more experience to go deeper more effectively, without so much struggle. Obviously having a spiritual practice helps and I think each one of us will believe they have to find the best system for them. The idea that my approach or the approach of David and his teachers is "formulaic" or less realistic is misleading. Part of the idea behind Buddhist and Daoist philosophy is this idea that some things are under our control and that we do have freedom of choice, to a degree; over our selves. And the decisions we make are important and meaningful, to us. Ultimately, what happens is outside of the confines of ego, but The Buddha taught that Liberation is in the palm of YOUR HAND, not some great unknown. It's about self a mastery, wisdom and understanding. Your right, the rest is in God's hands.

Hi Pietro, All I have to say is that I will do my best to convey your attitude to those in our community of students and friends. Since Vidiami's description is far too simplistic to be of any use and will only confuse people, the only real issue is one of respect for David who has spent a lifetime trying to honor the wishes and attitudes of his teachers. When we were in Thailand, David told us some of the stories of people who, lacking any real depth of character or respect, would begin teaching the practice to their friends without permission. One Romanian guy even started teaching his buddies during a lunch break at David's seminar. This is the same attitude of Michael Winn and Mantak Chia, who have no regard or respect for tradition or the teachers who give up a normal life to uphold those traditions. Fittingly they have no achievement and, lost in there own self serving game, gain nothing but bad karma. Vidiami is at least just ignorant, but people like you Pietro will be the butt of every joke to cross the lips of the immortals for the next million years. Your pathetic. S

I respect your opinion, but I have to disagree. From what I understand, and I have discussed it many times with my teacher, David feels the same. I'm confident that you and most of the Tao Bums are mature enough not to misunderstand the situation, but this forum has a large non-member audience and over 1000 members, that's an important consideration. Vadiami has already expressed his regret about writing it to me in his PM and cleary respects David's wishes on the matter, so the only request I have is for the description to be removed from all posts here; Unless David's wishes are NOT respected on this forum which would only prove my point further. Please remove the description. There is a very good discussion that can happen without it. Thank you. Sean

This is where we are different. I have been formally studying Buddhism for several years under the guidence of a very highly regarded scholar and meditation master. The nice thing about Buddhism is that the Buddha repeated himself over and over and over again. It's not like Christianity where scholars often disagree about what Jesus did and did not say. It's very clear what the Buddha said and what he has not because each teaching was repeated multiple times in very redundent terms to millions of people who later compared notes and confirmed that the teachings were authentic before they were recorded. Many of the masters involved in recording this teaching were enlightened beings who had commited the Buddhas teaching to memory after spending decades with the Buddha and direct teachings from the Buddha. I have also formally taken refuge in a public ceramony with the authorization of my master and the understanding that I had to go through the required formal training and demonstrate to my teachers and fellow sangha members a clear understanding of Buddhist view, history and philosophy. Happiness is part of the program. Buddha wasn't talking about transitory, fleeting happiness that comes from gain, fame and pleasure seeking. He was talkiing about the transedent happiness of enlightenment. The sutras are all there for people to read and they haven't changed for thousands of years.

Just a few corrections to avoid confusion The limit for beginners is the first two weeks. The higher price is for the seminar in China which is something completely different. The price is actually about $6500 USD. The purpose of the seminar in China is to provide students an opportunity to train with David's teachers directly and receive qi transmission to help assist progress in the training. Naturally you would have to well informed to make a commitment of this level. Most of the people going have spent considerable time researching the Foundation Forum and want the experience of meeting and training with a master. Vidiami, I have already PM'd you regarding what you have written here. I certainly appreciate the fact that you had a positive experience and want to share. However, as you can see, people are already making misleading judgements and unskillful comments, convinced they have seen the truth of these matters and so on... Rest assured David has been made aware and, I can pretty much garentee he will be offended even though your intentions were good. The Taobums is a very public forum with many varied view points and attitudes regarding the way traditional Daoism is taught. Your writing has already, I'm sure, been download and will be spread throughout cyberspace as the definitive teaching of David Shen. What's more, even though your general description is too vague to practice from, dozens of young 'Taoist Masters' will be practicing this 'method' convinced that they can make a workable practice from the outline you provided. Sadly, they will just be deluding themselves and wasting their time and energy. Nothing good can come from this.