DentyDao

This is pretty close to what I'm saying, but not really the 'whole' issue, which has far more to do with the temptation for people to practice something that would only hurt and hinder their progress. Once a student has progressed to a certain level, many things are revealed, but so is the correct understanding of how to progress without stunting your development. Certain practices which are totally authentic, if done at the wrong time in the student's development, can actually cause so much damage that the student loses the ability to cultivate what they wer trying to in the first place, sometime permently. This has huge karmic implications. It's also why the attitude that everything should just be free and out in the open is dangerous and foolish. This will be always misunderstood by people who lack experience and understanding. This is very common in the public eye to see people screaming about 'black magick and money scams.' Even if we look at history, this is practically par for the course. What people don't understand is that this is the test of the divine; the masters don't create this invisible wall it's just there, totally independent of anyone's will. If people want to learn cultivation they need to risk everything. This goes for all traditions and all spiritual practices if the goal is really enlightenment. If you think seeing the face of God, or Dao is going to happen whith you still holding on to doubts and fears and that you can just test the waters and see if the temperture suits your comfort level, you might as well give up now. There are a few interested in David's work, I would guess, who look very carefully at how well I'm received here as a measure of whether or not they should take David's course. This is a classic blunder that happens in spiritual groups of every nation and variety. It's like people at Sunday mass, or temple ignoring the message of the Rabbi or priest and paying attention to the crying babies and what people are wearing and who is dating the preachers son It has nothing to do with the opportunity at hand and they miss the blessing as well.

You have answered your own question here. You are far too concerned about me and my behavior. It's silly. Why would you care so much, it pretentous; you don't even know me. Of course there is a logical connection. You're trying to judge whether or not David's teaching is valid based on one of his student's behavior; as you keep insisting over and over again. David has hundreds of practicing students. Don't you see how nonsensical this is. This would be like me saying, "one of Michael Winn's students called me a gerk, so I now will make it my personal mission to hold that student accountable because 'I' need to see if Michael's student meets my standards of politness before I decide to learn from Michael." I have just reacted to this incorrect approach with a bit of sarcasm from the beginning, which you then interpret as hatred and anger. It's you own feelings that are being reflected, not mine. I just think you are silly. I'd be glad to share that coffee now, but if you think I'm flying to New York just so David and his masters can prove the efficacy of their teaching to you, you are sadly mistaken. Be well, S

The point that you have missed here Pat is the fact that dispite my own addmission that I am not achieved or more than a beginner, the teaching and practices I experienced with David are designed so that anyone, experienced or not, can understand the real meaning of Daoist cultivation once they understand the underlying principles. That's what's so exciting, that an ordinary person like me can easliy grasp why most of the stuff out their that's being presented in the west as Daoist cultivation is very shallow and incomplete. Btw, I have been practicing and researching for over a decade and am a former HT instructor; it's not like I fell off the turnup cart yesterday. I have traveled to Euope and Asia fairly extensively over the past 6 years and learned the secrets of Daoism from people who have achieved th things many her dream of achieving and that have been written about is classical texts, but grossly misunderstood in the west and in China for that matter, the realities of these practices are there for those who look. As for your challenge, I cannot accept. Our school has nothing to do with martial arts really. For what it's worth I'm sorry for any offense you have perceived. I certiany never intended to offend the memory of your Mother. I think that is very clear and there is really no need for you to behave the way you have because I have nothing against you personally. I just happen to think your criticism of me is unskillful and borish. I will share some points from David's recent essay soon; hopefully this help clearify the message I'm putting out and the reason for secrets, etc. It is the masters obligation to keep secrets from his students, it's imortant for teh student's growth and the masters duty to only reveal what that student needs at the right time in his or her development. Simple, but easy to confuse from an outside perspective. Many traditions, such as the Jewish Cabbalists and Christain essenes held and do hold the exact same ways of secrecy and it's a safe gaurd for the student, nothing more. When you understand what cultivation is and how delicate and complex the process of creating the Dan tien and letting the process occur at the right time and in a balenced way, you will understand why the secrets are not secrets; there are actually very important karmic reasins for this and the student can bear that karma for life times if they go to fast or don't proceed according to the teachers perscription which can be different for each student. As for the price of the training. Many of David's masters do actually teach for free and some do not. As has been made clear here, the prices for David's retreat are more expensive than some training and less than others. I happen to think they are pretty reasonable. I really don't see how this is corrupt or evil. The idea that David is somehow putting a price on enlightenment or immortality is not really close to the reality as he is not really garenteeing anything of this magnitude. There are many paths to enlightenment, all require sacrifice. I understand your frustration and I hope we can make peace. The fact that I'm rude and sometimes crass has nothing to do with the truth of the experiences of myself and others. I think someone used the term 'Hornets nest,' this is basically how it gets in this board some times. I'm just one person and I'm human. When I feel unfairly attacked some times I react with sarcasm. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the net. Anyway, as I said I hope we can put our differences aside. I would like to suggest that both parties need to respect eachother more, I think MOST people here see that point. With Love, S

David just posted a rough draft of the essay. It touches on many topics that I think have been a source of frustration for people. Definitly anybody is welcome to read through it and ask questions.

Verdesi

This must be what walking in to a StarTrek convention and shouting 'It's not real' must be like... Suddenly the angry mob of Trekies turn and go on the offensive, shouting angry bursts of hate ridden retoric, "Spok is real you horrible, horrible man!!!' And then the whole place goes ape shit and people start trying to kill the guy. One of the bigger, dumber brave Trekies, starts moving toward the offender, yelling something in Klingon. Some of the younger treks collapse in a corner with tears in their eyes, "Spok is real, it's OK, it's Ok, oh dear God.' Alex Chu to te rescue! This is really too funny. Like I care at this point No idea. I would be surprised if it's Karina. Not her style.

Dear Spyrodork, After many posts here you invited me to NEw York to 'Grab Coffee' and hang out. Later when it suits your jealously, you start joining Pat in following my writing very closly and looking for opportunites to get a punch in. Then after you treat a newer member hear like a bag of shit and I call you on it you send me this assinine PM: "Hey, I actually think you're making some good points and I appreciate what I see as a (slightly) improved tone. About Darin, I DON'T know, but my guess is he's a nut, or dishonest, or both. He's claiming to have spent 13 years alone on some rigorous path that he learned from a translated book of obscure esoteric knowledge. If that's true, I don't think he's balanced, and if it's false he's either fucking with us or delusional. If you read that thread most people said "get some help". He came back, more or less, with nonesense. So I wrote what I wrote to slap him around a bit so he'd wake up and take some action. (Or go away if he was just being a wiseguy). Perhaps I was wrong but that's why I did it. I think a few others had the same idea and did it in their own way. You've come in and saved his ass, which is charitable. And maybe you and/or David can do something for him. All I'm saying is he might be pretty unstable and you should be prepared for that. Good luck. " Get over it really. Why not just say what you really think and stop pretending your not shallow and rude as anyone on this forum.

Jette sent me a letter explaining the reality of the prices for Denmark: Hi Sean Tobias who has put this information on www.thetaobums.com should have cleared this whit me before starting this problem. There is a very clear policy about the price. The price for the seminar this summer is 1000 euro a week for people who never worked whit David or me before. People from the Danish group and people who have done seminars here in Denmark with David before pay a different price. We have made this policy about the price to make sure that all the new participants are really committed students. If the people that starts the practice this year comeback next year, they will of course pay the same price as everybody else. Please make this clear to everybody or better ask them to contact me if they have any questions. To make sure that every body gets the same answers I will suggest that any questions that has to do with the organisation of the seminar goes trough me. This is my job and David has plenty of other things to do. See you soon All the best, Jette I couldn't agree more. David said he really wasn't very connected with you with the exception of the incident mentioned. Certainly it seems the term 'old friend' was just more of your practical joking. A bit sad really. His version of the story wasn't very flattering for you if I understood it correctly. I'm sure you will elaborate.

Thanks for being sincere. Let's just say David has a sense of humor too. Something about an HT hottie and some photos. You can ask him if you like. Nothing to worry about he just found it humorous and wondered if it might be the reason you tried to piss him off a bit.

Gentlemen, I am just a 'beginner' and had a powerful experience with David's masters that changed my life. You can hate me all you want, but David is a Prince among men truly. I realize my presence here is a mixed blessing. Obviously, several members here have developed considerable animosity toward me; mostly because I have not been very polite and tend to get right down into the dirt and argue too much when people make offensive remarks. I realize this is a poor stratagy. But honestly my approach has never been to have a 'stratagy.' My attempts to engage in serious debate are sincere, with Pat being the exception. I realize that this cycle keeps taking on the same predicable patterns over and over; this last exchange with Pat has been a total waste and just makes me realize what a futile, boring approach this can be. The more I say I'm not representing anyone, the more people will hold onto the idea that I am doing exactly that. My agenda is not David's agenda and, honestly my presence here is a pet project of my own. True, I have David's blessing to share my experience, but beyond that people interested in David's work should go to the source. I hope most people get that. I really don't want the job of representing anybody and, if I did, I would never have been so casual and free; but really David doesn't need any help, he has hundreds of students in over a dozen countries, many of whom love him dearly and have achieved much more than I along the way with his masters teachings. As has David himself.

Nothing so elaborate

Up to you. Do what you will:)

Thanks for clearing that up Pat. Best of luck.

My reply is simple. Pat has never met David or his teachers and knows nothing of our tradition. He just doesn't like me. This was as clear to me from his very first post as it is today and it's why I can't take it seriously. Tobias (Vidiami), my suggestion, if you don't like your privacy voilated, be a little more mindful. Lesson learned. My best to you. As for the 'black mail' David's words not mine. What Pietro did was a power play. Plan and simple really and not the first such behavior from him toward David. Makes sense to me.

Just received David's thoughts on the matter of the practice revealed and Pietro's actions. David is always very telling about such matters and about people like Pietro who have, of course, a troubled history with David. David related the whole story of his very limited relationship with Pietro. I will not repeat such embarressing details here. Definity Pietro has a motive to black mail David in this funny little charade. I will leave the rest to imagination out of respect for Peitro's reputation and emotional health. David did write him and requested that the material be taken down and we shall see if he will make good on his promise. As for Vidiami, David "understands that his actions are faultless and just asked that he contact Peitro to also request him to remove the description. Since Vidiami created the mess, he should have a part in cleaning it up." David sometimes tests his students, while he said it's up to Vidiami, if Vidiami values his relationship with David, it would be a nice gesture; that's just my feeling. Sean David's letter: "Dear Sean I wrote to Pietro so to cut the head of the problem directly. this is the letter in italian Pietro sono anni che non ci sentiamo, mi spiace che debba essere a causa dell'incidente della lettera sul forum, un paio di amici mi hanno scritto in proposito, ti pregherei di cancellare le copie che hai fatto e altre note e referenze all'argomento, in rispetto di privacy e della volonta' dei maestri in proposito. Una descrizione cosi' generale di un esercizio non puo' far altro che generare piu' confusione e gossips. D'altronde qualunque pratica se descritta a livello generale potrebbe essera asscociata a qualunque altra ed invece non e' decisamente il caso, ti pregherei di evitare di suggerire altrimenti. grazie mille a buona fortuna David English version: Pietro Many years passed since we last communicated, it is regrettable that the reason is an "accident" cause by a forum letter. A couple of friends wrote me in regard, please erase the copies and paste you made and also references and notes on the topic so to repect privacy and the masters will. Such a general description of a practice will only create confusion and gossips, in fact any practic if described in such general terms can potentially be associated to any other, this is not definetly the case, please do not suggest it is so. thanks a lot and good luck David" Indeed, way past my bed time. This fat happy lad is going to beddy by. Sorry Pat it's 10pm here time for all good little punks to dream of cotton candy and lemon drops. I suggest you do the same. Things may look different in the morning.

Hi Spyrodork, I'm sure you have your own fantasy about what Pat would do to me if I don't apologize. What I would like to know is what exactly did I do to warrent a death threat. Sorry, but once again you demonstrate a lack of any real ability to think clearly. All I have done is respond to his dumb insults with a dumb insult. Actually I do take his threat seriously; what Pat said is against the law and I have made copies of his threat in the event that Pat decides to foolishly act out his words. Infortunitly ther will be no way fro Pat to save face here. It's lesson he needs dearly. If people here want disregard David's wishes about the description of the practice, I will be disapointed but I would never threaten anyone, it's just not smart.

As I sit here waiting for your reply, it occurs to me that this little incident could very well be just the serious break through you need to motivate you to do something meaningful with your life. I happy to facilitate this rather embaressing (for you) moment. Anyway, please continue, I will respond in between grading my students school work.

Pat I have to warn you, I am skilled in the art of fart-jitsu. You really wouldn't stand a chance. The only one who provoked you is you. This sadly, is your undoing.

Ah well. Hey Pat, have a good night. Go sell that art so you can go to China

SHIT!!! PAT, STOP WATCHING ME. I KNOW YOU ARE THERE. The watcher... he he he. Ignor list my ass. This ignor list thing is the funniest thing ever. 'Your on my ignor list, but I am keeping a close eye on you.' Neutral bastard. Cameron here is your chance to unleash your fury.

Are you kidding. BACK ON YOUR INGNOR LIST!!! And now you're threatening me with physical violence. As I said Pat, most of us have let the issues on this thread go, My self included. Is this really how you spend your time; just looking for fights and defending your mothers honor. Are really this shallow and infantile at your age? What happened to the grand sage who is so above all these youthful follies. Pat, it's time for me to give you a little life lesson as you are clearly at the end of your perverbial rope. First of all I have never met your mother and I'm sure she was a nice lady; I also did not know you ACTUALLY lived with her, that was joke. Your 52 years old now; it's time to start waking up and deciding how you really want to spent your time. Since you are single and have no family, perhaps you should devote your life to some nobler cause like charity work or habitate for humanity. I would also suggest some therapy if you are starting to threaten people with physical violence on the internet. A man your age can have a heart attack if they get too worked up. If you can't handle a little humorous ribbing via internet, what are going to do when someone calls you a idiot just for walking down the wrong side of the street in New Jersey? I would suggest a few weeks of Oprah Winfrey show to calm you down a bit and perhaps asking out that older lady at your favorite book store on a date. Sometimes having a women in your life can help mellow a person out and help them deal with the stresses of life a little effectively. There are some good studies that bear this out. Since it's probably been a whil since you have been in a relationship, maybe you can use some of the PUA resources on this site to build up you confidence a little more. I'm sure there's someone your age in New Jersy you shares you interests in corny poetry and long, long, long speaches about Taoism based on your profound depth of knowledege and subtle wit Really I don't dislike anyone on the forum here. I don't know any of them personally and I have not been really angry about anything said here. I mean who really cares what someone you don't even know a thousand miles away says about you? Sure now one likes being called names, but that's just part of being online as far as I can tell. No one acts the way people do on this forum in real life. Get over me and move on Pat.