Ken

I don't really know Jim that well, only through some communications a few years ago. My sincere condolences to his family.

I am curious what's the point you are trying to make here ?

"One of the most prominent traits of the early Quanzhen school was its ascetism. Hagiographic sources and personal testimonies indicate that all of the early Quanzhen masters lived austere lives and underwent periods of intense self-denial. Throughout their lives they followed the ideal of 'pure poverty' (qingpin) and relied on begging as their primary means of sustenance. "

 

 

YM

According to Da Dao Xing (Chinese version of Opening the Dragongate), Master Wang's teachers were about 70 years old in in 1960s, hence the oldest the living master can be is about 120, give or take 5 years.

Never heard of him. But as far as I know at least one of Master Wang's teachers is still alive. One grandmaster died, one is "missing" (?) and one is meditating for years now.

Jim said that he is money hungry.

From Jim's book: "one of the Western students that dropped out of the Mo Pai (translation: Verdesi) that went to China to find another master could actually be instrumental with why the “Almighty Buck” has helped contribute to replace the ancient way of doing things.

arrr yes Jim, who communicated with me a year or two ago because he wants to know about history of Mohism in China. He didn't sound like such a deranged and egoistic person in those emails. It's interesting how someone who doesn't understand Chinese nor his Master's first language, Indonesian, knows about the ancient way. It seems his understanding is that he should get whatever info he wants because that's that ancient way of doing things.

You know Jim, in the ancient way of doing, the disciple will devote everything to his Master, not just himself but everything he owns. Flying over to Indonesia once in a while to ply information out of your teacher is not devote. In the ancient way of doing thing, the student has no right to demand the teaching, if the teacher stopped teaching you, that's it and you don't go around and insult him and the ancestors to the first persons you met.

Ancestors worship is one of the most important aspect of Chinese culture that I haven't yet known to exist in other cultures, and I believe this is one reason why Chinese have preserved so much ancient knowledge. To insult the ancestor as a demon is an insult to the whole lineage. Jim, you should be glad Mopai people are doing things modern way now, because in the ancient way of doing things, you would have been crushed like a cockroach that you are for insulting Mopai Master and the Ancestors. You should be thankful your teacher and other students are still so kind to you.

Thanks for the compliments although I can't really take any credit since everything on there are Shen laoshi's writings/researches (or his more advanced students').

Yep, we should always check the sources of information that is presented to us as well as checking the qualification of the persons making these extreme claims.

 

But even beside that, I see nothing creditable that proves a major component of the fact of evolution is wrong.

 

Yes Dear Hearts, evolution is a fact. Doesn't matter how many IDers disagree with it.

Right on. Intelligent Design is nothing but creationism in disguise, it has no scientific basis, make no valid scientific predictions. I highly recommend anyone to read Judge John Jones highly readable decision on the Dover case back in 2005 for a complete take down of ID's false facade.

It's clear that TheTaoBum is not Jeanette, they may know each other but they are definitely not the same person.

I don't think "Taoist Yoga" （性命法决明指） is of any use, quite worthless in my opinion. The lineage descendant of the author had to go to Beijing to learn the 24 simplified Taijiquan in the 70s . I have heard they only do Taiji now and none of the practice outlined in the book.

edit: wrote 90s originally but it was much earlier.

I am quite willing to bet that connectedtaoist=eletric gravity=thundermind=Eli Wilson.

Hm you paid good money to have the book sent out? If I do remember MPG sent out more money to pay the expenses. Even to photocopy the book..

 

He wouldn't have opened up this thread if it were worked out now would he?

MPG and TheTaoBum have agreed to a payment plan for the refund on page 3 here. So I don't think you should torment him anymore about the refund...

I just wanted to update Ken and everyone else, I worked out a deal to receive small monthly payments for the $150 I am owed and so far so good. I will issue him a public apology when paid in full.

 

He may not be Elijah as I am fairly certain he lives in Australia, but I do find all of these coincidences too weird for my mind to comprehend.

 

I hate being angry with people, it makes me feel really sick internally. My anger is hard to contain and turns me into someone I don't like being.

 

I still wouldn't waste my money buying this book however.

I am glad this is getting resolved although I don't think a public apology is needed, you have put in far too much effort than reasonably expected in getting your refund for a fair transaction. But a public statement of resolution is probably a good thing so that TheTaoBum can clear his name.

I'm about ready to pay each of you $150 just so y'all will just shuddup already.

 

Hey everybody, don't spend your hard earned money on some manual called 'Mozi Neidan' that contains all the secrets to make you a powerful person who won't be so desperate as to keep sending more money to shady ripoff strangers on the internet.

 

There. Now let it go and let's move on.

The problem is that there is still the question of the un-refunded $150 which TheTaoBum has himself admitted of receiving. Unless this is resolved I don't think it's fair for MPG to just move on. But now if you are willing to give MPG $150 then I am sure he will be happy to take it and let this matter drop, otherwise you don't have any right to ask him to move on.

No.2 means completing and attaining the highest level possible in inner alchemy training, a.k.a becoming a fully realized Spiritual Immortal (神仙）, Master Wang had said as much in an off-hand comment during a seminar last year.

I have never heard of no. 1 though and without his verbatim answer in Chinese, it's impossible to even guess at what it mean. However, you are talking about going against reincarnation, the grandest flow of the universe, which only a full Spiritual Immortal can stop, so even if "cutting off spirit/soul root" is a practice, it won't be easier to achieve than becoming a full-blown realized immortal. I am more inclined to think that it is a task that can be done by a spiritual immortal or some similar being.

Of course these are only speculations and for everyone on this forum, that's the only thing we can do because we are only mortals and these concept are beyond our understanding. I will suggest that if you get a chance to ask Master Wang again, either through an online Q&A or a class, ask him again but be more specific, like asking him "Is cutting off the root of the spirit a practice that one can do? Or is it a task that have to be performed on you by others?".

Master Wang's answer: 1. There is a very special method to stop the

rebirth. Cutting off the "spirit/soul root" is one way. 2. There 3 types

of energy --- universal energy, rebirth energy, yourself body energy.

Taoist practicing training is to train with these 3 energies, if they

train successfully, the rebirth will be stopped.

Well done, you nailed it completely! There is nothing more infuriating to me than new age superstitious asshats spewing their bullshit on the web.

I think you've completely missed the whole point of the article. This is not an indictment of the scientific method; it's an observation of how rampant are the flawed research practices of human beings.

 

Judging by the points you've made in other posts as well as this one, your agenda seems plain enough; you fancy yourself as a one-man crusader out to undermine the world scientific communty and have us replace it with metaphysics and superstition. Attributing the earthquake in Japan to "Gaia," the living earth who's taking out her wrath on the human race, was not only idiotic but profoundly vulgar and beneath the measure of wisdom and clear thinking that must be summoned to address this tragedy. New Age bullshit doesn't have a lot of utility here.

 

Sorry for not being more diplomatic, but not all of us in here are uneducated idiots looking for the hippest new mythology. I appreciate your heartfelt desire to update our ruling paradigm, but this is accomplished by transcending the paradigm, not going back to the Pre-Copernican era and looking for shortcuts around it.

 

If this is genuinely an interest of yours, as I believe it is, then there's no way around reading Thomas Kuhn's The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. We all had to read it in college. You will too.

 

Sincerely,

Blasto, the presumptous and pedantic asshole from hell

edit: fucking Verizon connection!

Master Wang's answer: 1. There is a very special method to stop the

rebirth. Cutting off the "spirit/soul root" is one way. 2. There 3 types

of energy --- universal energy, rebirth energy, yourself body energy.

Taoist practicing training is to train with these 3 energies, if they

train successfully, the rebirth will be stopped.

Well your (1) is new to me, i was talking about (2).

Also I am happy to further discuss this and anything related to longmen if anyone is interested in my limited understandings but can we start a new thread? I don't want to discuss authentic teachings of Master Wang under a thread that's titled "David Verdesi". Yuck, I feel sullied and I don't want to give him any free association of Master Wang for even a tiny hint of legitimacy.

 

Edit: Since we're at Verdesi... We should 'render unto the Caesar what belongs to Caesar. He's writing of traditional daoism inspired many to search for the authentical, personally I am grateful for this. Like yourself, it was then that I made my commitment to learn Chinese, and [maybe someday] [real working] traditional practice. I hope I'm halfway there!

Edit: You mean his high fantasy? There is nothing traditional daoism is his writings, it's 30% half-truth and 70% bullshit aim to tempt the naive 20-year olds with wet dreams of super power. Although I have to give it to him that he is a pro-active person who really go out and seek out his wet dream, which is more than a lot of people who want to cultivate from their parent's basement through the internet. But he is still a liar shitface scumbag though.

Master Wang had talked about the question of reincarnation several times already, and he actually mentioned it again last time (in an off hand comment)of how to stop reincarnation.

"cutting the root of the spirit" or whatever is NOT a practice that one can be tuaght, it's the result of completing one's neidan (inner alchemy) training. If one can ever attain the level Spiritual Immortal (神仙）i.e. when one fully realizes his Yang Spirit (阳神出窍), then one can stop reincarnation. So there is no one practice to do it and you can't be taught to do it, it's the apex of one's training.

I probably am doing it backward, but it's my way of doing things. If master Wang isn't teaching by the time I am ready to seek him out, then I'll seek out his students and learn from them or investigate better leads into other teachers.

 

The only practice I am interested in getting more info on is "cutting the root of the spirit" to stop rebirth, I've asked a few times but not been able to get any more information on it from him. It sounds like it is a form of spiritual suicide resulting in eternal death, but I haven't been able to find out more.

 

Really my only goal for practice is to never be reborn, I'd rather do that by becoming a hsien but I doubt such a thing is possible for me realistically. If cutting the root of the spirit meant I could stop rebirth in this lifetime but remain dead eternally so be it.

Ya know, I think you are doing it backward. Firstly, even if you can do any of those things, you won't be any special, there are people in the big seminar who can go into trance in full lotus for several days at will. (Also there is no "dantian" to speak of in normal person, in Longmen Pai, you need to create a Xia Tian (lower field) before you can fill "anything") Secondly, by the time you can do any of these, it is possible that Master Wang will be retired from public and you won't be able to find him anymore, trust me if he doesn't want to be found he won't be, he is absolutely capable of doing that. So it's more important to study with him while he is still teaching publicly. Also don't buy into Verdesi's bullshit of "secret teachings" behind door, Master Wang is already teaching real stuff in public. Finally if you are serious about learning Chinese, perhaps you should start using Official Chinese Pinyin for you Chinese romanizations. For example, Dantian not dan tien, den tein ten tein or any other weird spellings.

 

When I last spoke with master Wang he told me flat out I'm a lardass, and to get in shape. If I meet him in person I will be certain I am in prime physical condition, I can speak Chinese, and I have finished filling my lower dan tein, and I can sit in full lotus in deep meditation for at least 4 hours.

 

I wouldn't waste his time otherwise. I think a certain level of respect is required, and if I were a master I wouldn't charge students money but I wouldn't teach anyone who didn't come to me prepared.

 

 

I don't like people wasting my time, and I sure as heck don't want to waste a master's. When I seek them out I will make sure I am worthy of becoming their student.

 

Since I've been working 50 hour weeks and not cultivating at all I've lost the abilities I had developed but I know the potential to reawaken them exists. You don't need someone to hold your hand, you just need dedication and correct methods.

I won't even waste my breath on a naive troll like you, you will learn one day.

TaoBum, you are an intelligent, reasonable, seeker of mastery. Ken here acts like he's knowledgeable, but honestly, he is simply an old friend of kathy li and takes every opportunity to show his bias. Jeannette is a direct contact for Grandmaster Wang as she is the one who studies three times per year with Grandmaster but Ken studied but only once and thus knows nothing about what is 'official'. Ken's bias is reinforced by not having spoken with Grandmaster directly for about a year; since the April 2010 intensive! he has no basis to determine who is 'official'.

 

Let it be known that Jeannette at Dragon Gate Academy in New York is every bit as Official as kathy. the only parties with this 'official problem' are kathy and kevin (husband) and yes, apparently their good friend, Ken. The New York branch supports Grandmaster Wang without ego. kathy seeks dominion; this is the difference.

 

Jeannette was very kind and helpful to me because i am a full time student; she made it possible for me to study with Grandmaster. She is really an awesome person, an enlightened student volunteer receiving absolutely no financial compensation. i want to say that she is the REAL, serious student whereas some others just have serious ego issues. The New York branch is growing rapidly; the current students practice twice per week together as a group and look forward to attending the April 2011 Intensive. Very few students come only once to an Intensive with Grandmaster because they make so much progress that they naturally wish to progress even more.

 

TaoBum, i do hope you will join us one day; for an Intensive directly with Grandmaster. the value will be made very clear to you; the practice is absolutely priceless. this cannot be compared to a disjointed, low vibe, egoistical, weekend retreat with kathy. see, clearly, 'more pie' didn't learn anything to encourage your attendance! after that weekend retreat, two years ago, he may never be motivated to study directly with Grandmaster. Sad.

edit: oops double post.

It is expensive (to me personally also), it's a fact so I don't see any disrespect and I am sure none is taken. Now that you mention dragongate nyc, just to be fair I need to add that the official sanctioned representative of Master Wang is laoziacademy.us who has his official seal of approval on top of their website front page. I will not write any further about these two organizations and please don't ask, there have been much "discussions" already.

Regarding the "optional" movement exercises, in a sense everything is optional, it is up to you if you want to do them or not now that you have spent so much money for the classes. No one is gonna to force you to do anything, it's your own practice.

In the classes you learn methods of authentic internal alchemy, I am just going to list their names and you can look them up in Opening the Dragongate. I would like to write/translate about the specific purposes of these practices in the future but for now you can look at them in the book: Yin Xian Fa, Ping Heng Gong, beginning practices of Secrets of the Golden Flowers (such as negong lines and Method of Intelligence etc).

Finally a few words on "ye li", actually it should be "ya li (压力)", it's not a "technique", ya li literally means "pressure" in English. I am not sure how it was translated to cause this confusion. It could have gone something like this:

Verdesi's follower: Master Wang, why do my legs hurt so much when we do the meditation?

Transltor: (derp derp derp)

Master Wang: It's because of the ya li of the qi field. (in Chinese)

Translator: (derp derp herp derp)

Verdesi's follower: OMG, Master Wang use his special ya li technique to compress my legs.

:lol: :lol:

Hi Ken,

no disrespect to nyc dragon gate, i just think it's a little expensive for me.

 

If i may, i would like to enquire as to what you actually learn at one of these 10 day intensives. To get an idea whether it's worth making my bank account very upset with me.

 

It seems odd to me that the movement exercises are optional, but you do sitting mostly.

 

I read a blog on the net by someone who went to an intensive with David Shen. He said they began sitting practice, and Grandmaster used a technique called ye li [or something like that], which forced the chi down into the legs to open all the channels of all the people sitting. He said it was excruciating, and the best you could hope for was that your legs went numb. It felt like your meridians where going to burst and splatter the people next to you Is that what your sitting practice was?

 

I thought that maybe you would have been taught some kind of foundational moving exercise that you practice daily, between intensives, to help you progress.

There wasn't any NY seminar. What I meant was I went to study with Master Wang with Jeanette from NYC who organized the April seminar in China last year.

A typical daily schedule in the seminar is movement exercises in the early morning (6am-7am) but it's up to you if you want to do it or not. A sitting session in the morning and afternoon ~1.5 hrs each. Movement exercises in the evening ~7pm for an hour (again optional and up to you). Sleeping practice at 10pm (40 mins - 1 hr).

If I may ask, how many days and how many hours was the NY seminar? What did you personally get out of it? How did it help your development.

 

One thing I've read from people who've practiced with Master Wang is the high commitment; dedication and daily practice regimen he asks for. Does he require 3 to 5 hours a day?

 

Thanks

 

Michael

Just want to add that I went to study with Master Wang last year with the NY group and I paid the same price. So I don't get any personal advantage by supporting and promoting any Master Wang's classes.

If you are not willing to pay then don't go. Simple enough.

The practice have already been collected and published in book formats in China since the 80s and yet more and more people would like to learn from Master Wang every year. I personally would like to see an up to date English edition published but it takes some times, a revised up to date Chinese version is still in work.

The teachings won't be given out cheaply (btw, "TheTaoBum", the $3900 current price is insisted upon by the NY group)and if you don't agree with the price, do not attend the seminar, end of story.

Final words on Verdesi, actually i don't have much to add, a search on the forum will yield plenty of info. But just let you know he was kicked out from China in 2009 and he attempted to sell contact info one last time back then for Master Wang and his other teacher Jiang for 23,000 and 46,000 Euro respectively. I think he has a new website now, I haven't been there for a long time but last time I saw, he claimed to have found a hidden Indian lei shan dao linage or whatever , how convenent that he now find an Indian lineage not long after he was banned from China?? I will let you dwell on that.

Why do you insist on one interpretation?

First of all there is The Dao (道）, and from the Dao, there arises many aspects, interpretations and extensions of it. These different branches or extensions of the Dao became different schools of thoughts, for examples, Daoism, Confucianism, Mohism, Legalism and Militarianism etc. With the exception of Daoism, each school only exemplify a limited aspect of Dao. And so in some area Confucianism "gets it right" and so Zhuangzi used it as a good example, and in other situation where Confucianism "gets it wrong", Zhuangzi used it as a counter-example.

Ok. Cool. So it sounds like what I'm hearing is that in the Book of Chuang Tzu Confucius is a messenger of the Taoist philosophy. Chuang Tzu isn't using him as a character that teaches Confucianism, but is in fact more similar to the other sages in the book that speak of the tao.

 

My struggle when reading these Confucius passages in the past has been that I would continually second guess or question everything Confucius said; thinking that Chuang Tzu was making the words of Confucius as antonymous to Taoism.

 

If it's accurate to view the Confucius character in the Book of Chuang Tzu as a Taoist than it definitely clears up a lot of confusion, but also brings up more questions. The most basic question is why is Chaung Tzu using the founder of Confucianism, a philosophy considered to be in natural opposition to Taoism, as someone who teaches Taoism?

 

I really appreciate everyone's help here.

what is a heavenly immortal and how do you obtain that?

What Vortex posted earlier is accurate enough.

No one who posts on this forum knows how to obtain it.