Azoro

Magnificent. Sublime. Well chosen. Thanks for posting.

 

We could have an opera thread itself for that matter.

________________________________________________________________________________

 

"Not sure if this qualifies as Taoist, but then again, why not, if magnificent and sublime are involved."

 

Did you mean magnificent or sublime in reference to the John Denver and Clannad songs (As in, if those songs can be here, why not this.) Or to the magnificent and sublime qualities in general for this topic thread, or to the opera link you posted. Just curious. (Sometimes people feel nervous sharing what they like, I wanted to give a wide scope, hopefully some people would post some great things, that have gone unnoticed. All's well. Take care.

Hi. I wasn't sure whether to post that song or not, because it doesn't seem specifically Taoist, but then I thought that to tap into the Tao is to tap into (among other things) the magnificent and the sublime, which, in my view, Di Stefano has clearly done.

Glad you enjoyed it.

Not sure if this qualifies as Taoist, but then again, why not, if magnificent and sublime are involved.

A very short aria that begins at the 28 second mark:

Di Stefano -

What is called "the dao" is the potentiality, it is not manifest. Everything is manifest from it. It's not thinking. It's not pulling strings. It has no grand plan, or compassion, or purpose for anything. It is impartial. People grant the dao divinity or power only because they assume something powerful must have a higher purpose.

 

God is a concept, an icon, an idol. Something people make responsible for what they can't control. Something people can blame for things that don't go the way they wish they would.

 

There is no correlation between the dao and god.

Thanks, beancurdle.

That is the distinction that I thought (actually hoped) might exist, but it seems that not all share your view on it.

In a search for a path that either venerates nature itself, or venerates an imagined creator or author of nature, I find myself drawn to the former.

Thanks, Dao Zhen. What I really want to know is if Daoists believe there is a distinction between the nature of the Tao and the nature of the Christian God.

One seems to imply an Is-ness. That the Tao IS everywhere and in everything, but without the inherent idea that Christianity has of an all-knowing, all-powerful, sentient God in control of everything, and if you simply believe in it, then you are saved for eternity.

I mean, they both seem to share the idea that the Tao is everywhere and in everything, just that Christianity would probably call that Spirit, or the Holy Spirit. What I'm trying to get at is that in Christianity, there is something greater that manifests the Spirit, whereas in Taoism the Spirit (the Tao) is it. There is no God or Supreme Being that manifests it pulling all the strings. It just is, and it is what interconnects everything.

I'm wondering if I have the concepts right.

See, the thing about the God concept, which I could never reconcile, is that if there is an all-powerful, all-knowing God, why would it allow such suffering to exist. It just seemed terribly incongruent, and so, I could never believe in that construct.

Which is why I think I would like Taoism, because I already believed in the idea that there is a universal force which connects everything, and the more attuned you are with it, the better the harmony there will be, the more aware you'll be. You don't fight it, but rather flow with it. So, that aspect of spiritualism (if that's what it is), I am already fully on board with, and I like it the more if there is not the idea that there is an some all powerful entity consciously pulling all the universal strings.

That's really the question I'd like to get answered; Is there a differentiation between the God concept as I have described, and the Tao concept. My sense is that there is. They both recognize the Tao/Spirit as being universal and in everything, but one is subordinate to a higher God, pulling all the universal strings, so to speak, whereas in the other, the Tao/Spirit simply IS, subject to no higher authority.

Is there a (yes or no) distinction?

Sorry if I'm seeming like a pain in the ass on this. I just need to know.

Hey Bums,

I was having a discussion with someone about Taoism, and I'm trying to figure out some basic info about same. Wonder if you would mind sharing your opinions on this:

There is something that I still don't understand about the distinction

between Taoism and Christianity.

 

When considering these passages quoted from the link:

 

"a force which flows through all life and is the first cause of

everything. The goal of everyone is to become one with the Tao. Tai

Chi, a technique of exercise using slow deliberate movements, is used

to balance the flow of energy or "chi" within the body. People should

develop virtue and seek compassion, moderation and humility. One

should plan any action in advance and achieve it through minimal

action."

 

... and

 

"The concept of a personified deity is foreign to Taoism, as is the

concept of the creation of the universe."

 

... and this from PosterA

 

>>>With that in mind, the quote I cited above was intriguing to me. As far as I understand Taoism--which itself is doubtful--the Tao itself is beyond all dualities or, better, the source of all dualities. If so, the distinction between a "personified deity" and whatever the opposite of a "personified deity" might be ("Prime Mover"? Godhead?) may be artificial. Once the flow of creation from the Tao has begun, the flow of complementary opposites goes with it. <<<

 

What I would like to know is this; when speaking of the Tao force

which flows through all life and is the first cause of everything, is

the Tao regarded as omnipotent and omniscient, as is God in

Christianity?

 

I guess the question would be, in Taoism, is the Tao regarded as a

being, or entity which has a consciousness and intent, and which is

regarded as having created everything, and that is aware of our every

action and thought, or is the Tao distinct from that in that the force

that flows through all life that makes us all interconnected (in a

quantum physics way, which I know practically nothing of, lol), is not

explicitly or implicitly regarded as a supreme being?

 

Do you see the distinction? One suggests a supreme being that created

everything and knows everything, and is in charge of everything, where

the other suggests that there simply IS everything, and that we are

all a part of that everything, interconnected.

 

Does that distinction exist between Taoist and Christian beliefs?

Because this statement:

 

>>>The concept of a personified deity is foreign to Taoism, as is the

concept of the creation of the universe." <<<

 

...seems to explicitly say that.

 

Again, I don't wish to offend, PosterB, because I know your background is

in Christianity, and I'm not implying that one belief is better than

the other, (and since you're involved in both, you must regard them as

at least, highly complimentary of one another.) I just want to know

if there is that fundamental distinction between the two.

 

I'm trying to choose a spiritual path that I'm comfortable with, and

the reason that Taoism seems like it might appeal is that (I think) it

lacks what I consider the incongruity of there being an all powerful

being while at the same time there is so much suffering in the world

(the age old question of 'If there were an all powerful being capable

of ending suffering, why would it not do so?). That's an aspect of

Christianity that I've never been able to reconcile, so I'm wondering

if Taoism does or does not share the belief that there is an all

powerful being. It's a very fundamental question to me.

Thanks for the heads up, Lozen.

Regards

Hi Azoro,

 

If you're not limiting to Taoism, you might want to check out:

 

The Zen Desert Sangha

 

They sound pretty well-established. The teacher's teacher, Robert Aitken, Roshi, was one of

the earliest Americans to study zen in Japan, and taught in Hawaii for many years.

 

Regards,

 

Ken

Thanks, Ken. That one looks promising. Think I'll check it out.

Thanks, Bill. I'm told Michael no longer lives in Tucson.

Mainly, I'm looking to start doing meditation. I guess it need not necessarily be of the Taoism variety. Any suggestions for good meditation groups in Tucson (Taoist or otherwise)?

Hi. I'm wondering if anyone can recommend a place where I can learn about

Taoism and meditation in Tucson. Any pointers greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Hey all,

New to the site. Have recently (re)taken up an IMA, and I think as I unblock a lot of stuff, I'll be stirring up some things that will be unsettling.

I'd like to get into some form of meditation, and have been searching for something that seems like it will be a fit. I'm wondering if anyone can recommend someplace where I can study Taoism in Tucson, AZ, or if Kunlun is taught here in Tucson.

Very interesting site, and I'm glad I found it. Can't wait to read more.

Regards