Tommy

God is invisible? Is love visible? I do not see love as being visible but I do see the effects of love. Hugs, kisses, gifts and happiness. So, maybe God is invisible?? But maybe, the effects of God is visible if one knows what to look for?? Is boredom a justification for mischief? Or is that just a human explanation of events?

Two men visit an abbot at a monastery at different times. The first man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was it like in your old town?” The first man responded, “It was terrible. Everyone was full of hate. I did not like it there.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I do not think you should move here.” The first man left and the second man came in. The second man said, “I’m thinking of moving to this town. What is it like?” The abbot asked, “What was your old town like?” The second man responded, “It was wonderful. Everyone was nice and friendly. I was happy. Now, I just wanted a change of scenery.” The abbot said, “This town is very much the same. I think you will like it here.”

I have always found that the Zen stories hold more than one point. In ancient times, it was normal for a traveling monk to seek lodging at a Zen monastery. But had to engage in dharma combat with the abbot or disciple. If the monk won the debate, he could stay. If the monk loss, then he had to go elsewhere. The Abbot asked his disciple to engage with a traveling monk, who challenged him to a silent debate. It so happened that this disciple had an accident as a child and had only one eye. The travelling monk returned to the abbot, saying, “Your man is too good for me. I must go journey on. I held up one finger to symbolize the Buddha. But he held up two fingers for the Buddha and the Dharma. So I held up three fingers for the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. But then he held up a clenched fist to indicate they were all one – so I ran to indicate I am no match for him.” After the monk who spoke these words, he left. The disciple arrived and was very angry. “Where is that monk?” he demanded. “He insulted me by holding up one finger to indicate I had only one eye. Determined to be polite, I held up two fingers to indicate that, he was blessed with two eyes. But, he held up three fingers to indicate that all together there were only three eyes among us. So I wanted to hit him with my fist but he ran off.”

The story also points out that wisdom without compassion is meaningless. As the monk does realize the daughter is there not because of some great emotional connection. But, he misses the point of her being there at all. And thus, having realized the monk has not learned this, the old woman burnt the hermitage down which also shows that wisdom without compassion is not complete. True, words on paper do not always convey the true tone of the words. However, from what I have read of your posts, I do realize that you do have much more knowledge of these matters and also have given them much more thought than I have. So, I have no wish to argue a pointless point and just leave it to opinion.

Well there is that poster that says, ... The person says, "I want happiness" The poster says to get rid of the "I" because that is ego Then goes on to say that "want" is desire and to get rid of that Then all that is left is "happiness". Lol.

I am sorry. I disagree with this "Buddha only taught two things." When you live with a person and follow them around, you learn their manner and their wisdom and their compassion. The Buddha might have only spoken about Dukka but much more was passed on than just words. The Dharma is not just about Dukka. Well, that is just my opinion. And, I accept that I am probably wrong. So no argument. I will bow to your wisdom and live the way I see fit. With respect to the story, everyone has their own opinion. The monk has his. The daughter has hers. The old woman certainly has hers. Not everyone agrees. And so I have mine. Apologies.

Craving is a desire? So a desire to do things and enjoy life? So I have to ask why what you are doing must satisfy your desires? Looking for something appealing means you expect something. Maybe if you stop expecting something then maybe you can just be happy. Expecting closure? A transition from one state to the next? Doesn't the expectation cause a barrier from the next state from happening? That gives me the shudders. That is why I have given up wanting enlightenment. Wanting it prevents it from happening. Not wanting it, lets me be me. Happy. Chop wood and carry water. I do not need to look for something appealing. It all is appealing. Even things I do not want to do becomes something to do. Just to do. What did Mark say in the four arisings of mindfulness? The more we try to do right, the more we do wrong.

Okay, nothing satisfies. What is the craving that needs to be satisfied? If you don't have a craving are you bothered by nothing satisfies? Let me see, a blank slate is still a slate. Ready to take up any ideas presented. I like what Bruce lee once said. Be like water. What he actually meant by that I don't know. But, it sounds good. Two guys who haven't seen each other for a long time meet. One guy says, "how have you been and how is that son of yours?". The second guy answers, that he is fine and his son is sitting around all day doing meditation. The first guy responds that sounds great. It is better than just sitting sound doing nothing all day. LOL. Sorry, poor humor.

Thanks for the reply, very much appreciated. No, I am still confused but am sure this might help someone else looking into it. This is the story of my life. Can't get there from here. And still I try. So isn't the definition of crazy like doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different outcome? I keep trying to get there from here. Must be nuts?? So, I sit in my practice of being aware of the moment and watching my thoughts come and go. Nothing changes. Yes, things do seem to quiet down. Thoughts do not come as often but they do arise and vanish. Doing the same thing over and over. Expecting a different outcome??? I have to laugh at the insanity of my actions.

That statement still confuses me. Cause if I try to do the right thing then it is me doing more wrong. So, if I do the wrong thing then it is still me doing more wrong. How can that be right? Sorry about the confusion. I know that this is probably more of my ego talking, ... So, I am a helpless sinner, incapable of doing the right thing. And only by allowing Jesus within and giving it over to Jesus, does the right thing get done. Why? Does giving myself to Jesus disolves me of the responsibilities of my actions? Do I become free to do what I believe Jesus would have me do? If God created me in his image then why am I lesser than Jesus in terms of doing right? Was I made defective that Jesus needs to handle me and my actions?? When people were going to stone the woman for adultery, Jesus said let those who have not sinned cast the first stones. I wondered why Jesus did not throw the first stone. Was Jesus a sinner too?? I know that wasn't the point of his story. I know that I am no where near the level of Jesus in mind or spirit. But, I do not like to look upon people as lesser than what God intended. Maybe that is my mistake. So, the confusion lives on in me.

That sounds like good news. Did Buddha identify life as only suffering due to trying to satisfy our cravings? Or is life a bit more? Having friends and family along with laughter and joy? Wisdom seems to be a companion of compassion. Does that mean we are trying to satisfy our cravings by showing wisdom and compassion towards others? Someone once told me to try smiling while doing ordinary life events. That smiling would transform the outlook of life. In other words, one sets their own frame of reference for life. If all you see is trying to satisfy cravings then that is all life means to you. If you laugh and sing and create then life is fuller. Of course, I could be wrong since I do not sit in the quiet of no thought. I sit in the quiet of my awareness. Thoughts come and go. I let them pass like cars on the road in front of my house. Where they came from and where they go, I have no idea. If my heart is light then I am light. If my heart is dark then I am dark. Does one choose one or the other? Or is that part of one's personality? Or does one have a personality after sitting for so long??

I really must apologize for my lack of sophistication. When I read, "The more we try to do right, the more we do wrong, IMHO. "Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness"--that, I believe, is the only way to the "supermundane" components of the way." I am sorry for my lack of understanding. Thanks Mark for the reply. This one is going to haunt me. When I read, "Eventually the initiate has most of its attention in relationships and intent, with the internal matters largely delegated to internal intelligences. One of the attributes of the heart is direct knowing without mental process." I guess that is taken out of context? Sorry. Thanks Lairg for the reply.

Is this how religion started?

I don't know. I look for the self or soul and found that I am a product of this body. I know of nothing else than what this body has produced in terms of myself. I can not find a soul or spirit. But, know that I am here, now. And that is all there is (here, now). This here, now is everywhere else too. It isn't filled with things but it isn't empty either. And it is only because of the persistence of memory that gives this sense of myself. Otherwise, I see no soul or spirit. What kind of journey am I on if I can not find my spirit?

Wow, I got the idea of mindfulness all wrong. To me, it meant that one should be aware of the present moment. As the same in meditation, one is aware of the breath and/or body. All the while, making actions with an awareness that keeps memory of actions made. That was difficult. In other words, being aware of where one has left their umbrella and sandals at the door. Knowing where the car keys hang. I know it isn't possible to remember every little thing (it is that way for me). But, when I make actions, I should have the awareness of what I am doing while I am doing it. So, one has to be mindful of the body. And be mindful of the emotions. And, be mindful of the mind. And be mindful of the state of mind. I can barely keep it together while I just sit. And when I watch a movies, I lose myself in the story. All this mindfulness is more than I can handle at this moment. Maybe I can just quit talking and try to make things a little simpler for myself. My simple mind has reached it limit of confusing stuff. I do not know how others cope with this information overload. Me, my head shuts down. Maybe that is why I like the quiet while I just sit.

So, you are saying the something else is an unstable state when combined with self preservation aggressive levels of conceit that makes one commit atrocities?? Maybe it is just the unstable states??

I have read so many people ask about phases or steps or levels of advancements. The thinking is that when one spends more time than others in practice or meditation then they are further advanced. Like taking a university course, the more time spent passing courses will eventually bring one the diploma. Except here it is of enlightenment. So, is it my misconception that there really is no levels of advancement. No phases that one goes thru to reach enlightenment. It is nothing like taking a college course? My misconception that it depends on whether a person is readily able to accept the impetus to be pushed beyond this mind. For some it may take years of practice before this state. Others are near and have had experiences they are not ready for. Thus thinking they may be crazy. That is until they meet a real teacher. Sometimes I see a person who spouts rhetoric and sayings from whatever they have recently read. Maybe even someone who has had experienced Kensho but has no idea how to move forward. Then there is the one up man. Must always be one up on the next person. There are so many different people. Am I wrong to think there is no phases or levels? That it is mostly a hodge podge of people in different areas. All trying to find their way? Sorry, I am not very smart. Just a simple person. I have many misconceptions. But, I am willing to learn?? Maybe??

I have self preservation, and aggressive levels of conceit but I do not kill one another. There must be something else involved. Just seen a video where an old army veteran shot and killed teenagers who busted down his door wearing masks and brandishing guns trying to rob the old man. The parents tried to sue the veteran for killing their sons. Saying that their kids were only trying to rob him and they did not deserve to die. This makes me think of the old saying that no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry, must be my misconceptions

This statement made me think and ask questions. Like what is a soul and do I have one? How would I lose my own soul if I gain the whole world? What does one have to do with the other? I mean it is a nice saying. But, its true meaning is lost because it seems to be out of context. Maybe someone is doing something that is hurting their soul while it provides that person with gain. Does this saying also include those who gain the world but hasn't done things to hurt their soul? Sorry, off topic and this mind tends to drift.

Thank you everyone. This has been an enlightening topic for me. I appreciate all the replies. Some I have had to read a few times to understand. I may not have responded directly. But, I am listening (reading).

I thank all of you for the replies. Greatly appreciated. Personally doubt being enlightened at all. Just have a mind that is curious about the truth. Like the saying goes, there are three things that can not hide forever The Sun, the Moon and the Truth. I know the first two. Still working on the last one. Wonder about the world and its mysteries? Yeah, being a simple person, I do wonder at things I just don't understand. For example, why observing the electrons passing thru the double slit would change the outcome of the pattern behind the double slit? My wondering doesn't change anything. Other than confuse my mind for a moment. Then move onto other things. The world is full of paradoxes. And as human, we all just live with what there is. Being on a Forum allows me to express my thoughts and learn. I think learning is what keeps one open to new possibilities.

Then I guess that I will never find enlightenment in this lifetime. I have no control over my physical desires. When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep. No control there. I have no control over emotions. When I see my wife, I feel love there and a gentle peace. When I see something outrageous like a person being hurt. My empathy or compassion goes out. I feel emotions. No control Then my thoughts comes without my intentions or control over them. Where it is cold, I seek the warmth. Yeah, enlightenment is not for me then. When I was younger, I had always wanted to experience the awakened mind. Find liberation. As I am much older now, I have seen my friends and my relatives pass away. A few years ago, my mother died. Then a couple of years after, my father died. I use to think enlightenment would give me emotional distance from situations. Sort of to be in the world but not a part of it. Now it doesn't make sense not to feel emotions. I don't seek enlightenment. It doesn't hold a value for me. It isn't something I can share. It isn't something that can be traded. It is what it is. To me, just a word written in some books. I do like to be on forums where I can meet some very interesting people. And I am grateful for the lessons I have learned here. Yeah, sorry for my misconceptions.

I have to wonder ... say the experiment of the double slit where a single light source travels past a double slit. The initial result is that there are light and dark patterns which form on the back screen. It is a pattern of wave interference. When the source was changed to an electron gun, where electron particle was sent past the double slit, the experimenter expected to see two bright bands. Instead, the pattern for light waves appeared. Somehow the single electrons form a wave pattern on the back screen. Then when the experimenter watched the electrons go past the double slit, a pattern of two bright band appeared. So, it seemed that the simple observation of the electrons changed the results. This makes me think question, does sitting quietly in meditation, observing, change something fundamental in consciousness? Can the act of observation make the universe behave in a different manner? Sorry, for the side track. My mind tends to lead me off to neverland. Note: The emptiness or don't know mind, when observed, does it change anything?

Does it matter? Guessing that with my abilities and knowledge that not much would change. So for me it wouldn't matter. However, what would knowledge of the atom matter? Well, atomic energy, a big bomb, ?? Guessing again that maybe true knowledge of the essence or soul might allow for other things to happen which may not be evident at the moment?? I remember a movies where the premise was that the whole world found out that reincarnation was absolutely true. The consequences of that was there was a jump in the number of suicides. If people didn't like their life then they would turn it in and go for a new one. I know it sounds silly. The consequences of knowledge and experience does matter?? Doesn't it? Note: Thank you for your kind words.

And how many compared to those who have no past memories or continuity from the past? One in a million? Two in a million? Or let us say 2 or 3 in a hundred thousand. What percentage are you talking about? Only those exceptions? If they really are for real? Also, can't one be a prodigy and not have the talent come from a previous life? Note: The Buddha or the awakened one could not prevent his own death. All things born will die. So, awakening is suppose to end the cycle of birth, death and rebirth? If one gets a chance to live again then why would anyone want to stop from being born again? Life isn't all suffering. Is it? Well at least for some of us, life can be very nice for a little while.