Tommy

That statement still confuses me. Cause if I try to do the right thing then it is me doing more wrong. So, if I do the wrong thing then it is still me doing more wrong. How can that be right? Sorry about the confusion. I know that this is probably more of my ego talking, ... So, I am a helpless sinner, incapable of doing the right thing. And only by allowing Jesus within and giving it over to Jesus, does the right thing get done. Why? Does giving myself to Jesus disolves me of the responsibilities of my actions? Do I become free to do what I believe Jesus would have me do? If God created me in his image then why am I lesser than Jesus in terms of doing right? Was I made defective that Jesus needs to handle me and my actions?? When people were going to stone the woman for adultery, Jesus said let those who have not sinned cast the first stones. I wondered why Jesus did not throw the first stone. Was Jesus a sinner too?? I know that wasn't the point of his story. I know that I am no where near the level of Jesus in mind or spirit. But, I do not like to look upon people as lesser than what God intended. Maybe that is my mistake. So, the confusion lives on in me.

That sounds like good news. Did Buddha identify life as only suffering due to trying to satisfy our cravings? Or is life a bit more? Having friends and family along with laughter and joy? Wisdom seems to be a companion of compassion. Does that mean we are trying to satisfy our cravings by showing wisdom and compassion towards others? Someone once told me to try smiling while doing ordinary life events. That smiling would transform the outlook of life. In other words, one sets their own frame of reference for life. If all you see is trying to satisfy cravings then that is all life means to you. If you laugh and sing and create then life is fuller. Of course, I could be wrong since I do not sit in the quiet of no thought. I sit in the quiet of my awareness. Thoughts come and go. I let them pass like cars on the road in front of my house. Where they came from and where they go, I have no idea. If my heart is light then I am light. If my heart is dark then I am dark. Does one choose one or the other? Or is that part of one's personality? Or does one have a personality after sitting for so long??

I really must apologize for my lack of sophistication. When I read, "The more we try to do right, the more we do wrong, IMHO. "Making self-surrender the object of thought, one lays hold of concentration, one lays hold of one-pointedness"--that, I believe, is the only way to the "supermundane" components of the way." I am sorry for my lack of understanding. Thanks Mark for the reply. This one is going to haunt me. When I read, "Eventually the initiate has most of its attention in relationships and intent, with the internal matters largely delegated to internal intelligences. One of the attributes of the heart is direct knowing without mental process." I guess that is taken out of context? Sorry. Thanks Lairg for the reply.

Is this how religion started?

I don't know. I look for the self or soul and found that I am a product of this body. I know of nothing else than what this body has produced in terms of myself. I can not find a soul or spirit. But, know that I am here, now. And that is all there is (here, now). This here, now is everywhere else too. It isn't filled with things but it isn't empty either. And it is only because of the persistence of memory that gives this sense of myself. Otherwise, I see no soul or spirit. What kind of journey am I on if I can not find my spirit?

Wow, I got the idea of mindfulness all wrong. To me, it meant that one should be aware of the present moment. As the same in meditation, one is aware of the breath and/or body. All the while, making actions with an awareness that keeps memory of actions made. That was difficult. In other words, being aware of where one has left their umbrella and sandals at the door. Knowing where the car keys hang. I know it isn't possible to remember every little thing (it is that way for me). But, when I make actions, I should have the awareness of what I am doing while I am doing it. So, one has to be mindful of the body. And be mindful of the emotions. And, be mindful of the mind. And be mindful of the state of mind. I can barely keep it together while I just sit. And when I watch a movies, I lose myself in the story. All this mindfulness is more than I can handle at this moment. Maybe I can just quit talking and try to make things a little simpler for myself. My simple mind has reached it limit of confusing stuff. I do not know how others cope with this information overload. Me, my head shuts down. Maybe that is why I like the quiet while I just sit.

So, you are saying the something else is an unstable state when combined with self preservation aggressive levels of conceit that makes one commit atrocities?? Maybe it is just the unstable states??

I have read so many people ask about phases or steps or levels of advancements. The thinking is that when one spends more time than others in practice or meditation then they are further advanced. Like taking a university course, the more time spent passing courses will eventually bring one the diploma. Except here it is of enlightenment. So, is it my misconception that there really is no levels of advancement. No phases that one goes thru to reach enlightenment. It is nothing like taking a college course? My misconception that it depends on whether a person is readily able to accept the impetus to be pushed beyond this mind. For some it may take years of practice before this state. Others are near and have had experiences they are not ready for. Thus thinking they may be crazy. That is until they meet a real teacher. Sometimes I see a person who spouts rhetoric and sayings from whatever they have recently read. Maybe even someone who has had experienced Kensho but has no idea how to move forward. Then there is the one up man. Must always be one up on the next person. There are so many different people. Am I wrong to think there is no phases or levels? That it is mostly a hodge podge of people in different areas. All trying to find their way? Sorry, I am not very smart. Just a simple person. I have many misconceptions. But, I am willing to learn?? Maybe??

I have self preservation, and aggressive levels of conceit but I do not kill one another. There must be something else involved. Just seen a video where an old army veteran shot and killed teenagers who busted down his door wearing masks and brandishing guns trying to rob the old man. The parents tried to sue the veteran for killing their sons. Saying that their kids were only trying to rob him and they did not deserve to die. This makes me think of the old saying that no good deed goes unpunished. Sorry, must be my misconceptions

This statement made me think and ask questions. Like what is a soul and do I have one? How would I lose my own soul if I gain the whole world? What does one have to do with the other? I mean it is a nice saying. But, its true meaning is lost because it seems to be out of context. Maybe someone is doing something that is hurting their soul while it provides that person with gain. Does this saying also include those who gain the world but hasn't done things to hurt their soul? Sorry, off topic and this mind tends to drift.

Thank you everyone. This has been an enlightening topic for me. I appreciate all the replies. Some I have had to read a few times to understand. I may not have responded directly. But, I am listening (reading).

I thank all of you for the replies. Greatly appreciated. Personally doubt being enlightened at all. Just have a mind that is curious about the truth. Like the saying goes, there are three things that can not hide forever The Sun, the Moon and the Truth. I know the first two. Still working on the last one. Wonder about the world and its mysteries? Yeah, being a simple person, I do wonder at things I just don't understand. For example, why observing the electrons passing thru the double slit would change the outcome of the pattern behind the double slit? My wondering doesn't change anything. Other than confuse my mind for a moment. Then move onto other things. The world is full of paradoxes. And as human, we all just live with what there is. Being on a Forum allows me to express my thoughts and learn. I think learning is what keeps one open to new possibilities.

Then I guess that I will never find enlightenment in this lifetime. I have no control over my physical desires. When I am hungry, I eat. When I am tired, I sleep. No control there. I have no control over emotions. When I see my wife, I feel love there and a gentle peace. When I see something outrageous like a person being hurt. My empathy or compassion goes out. I feel emotions. No control Then my thoughts comes without my intentions or control over them. Where it is cold, I seek the warmth. Yeah, enlightenment is not for me then. When I was younger, I had always wanted to experience the awakened mind. Find liberation. As I am much older now, I have seen my friends and my relatives pass away. A few years ago, my mother died. Then a couple of years after, my father died. I use to think enlightenment would give me emotional distance from situations. Sort of to be in the world but not a part of it. Now it doesn't make sense not to feel emotions. I don't seek enlightenment. It doesn't hold a value for me. It isn't something I can share. It isn't something that can be traded. It is what it is. To me, just a word written in some books. I do like to be on forums where I can meet some very interesting people. And I am grateful for the lessons I have learned here. Yeah, sorry for my misconceptions.

I have to wonder ... say the experiment of the double slit where a single light source travels past a double slit. The initial result is that there are light and dark patterns which form on the back screen. It is a pattern of wave interference. When the source was changed to an electron gun, where electron particle was sent past the double slit, the experimenter expected to see two bright bands. Instead, the pattern for light waves appeared. Somehow the single electrons form a wave pattern on the back screen. Then when the experimenter watched the electrons go past the double slit, a pattern of two bright band appeared. So, it seemed that the simple observation of the electrons changed the results. This makes me think question, does sitting quietly in meditation, observing, change something fundamental in consciousness? Can the act of observation make the universe behave in a different manner? Sorry, for the side track. My mind tends to lead me off to neverland. Note: The emptiness or don't know mind, when observed, does it change anything?

Does it matter? Guessing that with my abilities and knowledge that not much would change. So for me it wouldn't matter. However, what would knowledge of the atom matter? Well, atomic energy, a big bomb, ?? Guessing again that maybe true knowledge of the essence or soul might allow for other things to happen which may not be evident at the moment?? I remember a movies where the premise was that the whole world found out that reincarnation was absolutely true. The consequences of that was there was a jump in the number of suicides. If people didn't like their life then they would turn it in and go for a new one. I know it sounds silly. The consequences of knowledge and experience does matter?? Doesn't it? Note: Thank you for your kind words.

And how many compared to those who have no past memories or continuity from the past? One in a million? Two in a million? Or let us say 2 or 3 in a hundred thousand. What percentage are you talking about? Only those exceptions? If they really are for real? Also, can't one be a prodigy and not have the talent come from a previous life? Note: The Buddha or the awakened one could not prevent his own death. All things born will die. So, awakening is suppose to end the cycle of birth, death and rebirth? If one gets a chance to live again then why would anyone want to stop from being born again? Life isn't all suffering. Is it? Well at least for some of us, life can be very nice for a little while.

Long ago, when I first came to daobums, you made a response post which really annoyed me. And I have seen where others have had the same reaction. I have come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter what others say. It only matter how one reacts to others. I can only control myself. So, after having said this, I thank you for your reply. To say that my spirit is the essence of me?? I don't see it. As I have been knocked out, know there is nothing of me that exist outside of my body. Drink alcohol and my mind becomes affected. There is nothing I sense or feel or grok that is outside of this body. And so, what essence would there be? It is like people tell me there is a God. Sure. Okay, then how do I know this? How do I find my God? No visions or acts to show God. Some people who have had near death experiences say there is a God and so on and so forth. Personally, I don't see it. Maybe someday if I ever experience Kensho. Or have a near death experience. Lets see, Ram Dass who took LSD and other drugs to experience something "else". That isn't a path I wish to take. I mean it might give one the experience of something other than this realm. But, how is it real when it only seems like an illusion created by the drug? Sorry, I take seriously the idea of trusting the Buddha's word that one should see for oneself. So, for me, death doesn't allow entrance to heaven or hell. It is the end of this life. What Karma has in store for me? LOL. Does it really matter when there is no continuity of mind or memory?

I personally do not know how the spirit would penetrate all existence since I have found no such thing in myself. Some have mentioned that they can travel thru the astral planes. Guessing that might have something to do with the spirit. For me, I do not have such experiences. And so, I do not see, feel, or grok that there is such a thing as spirit. This not to say there isn't a spirit. Just that for me, it doesn't exist. I live and breathe. Wake up in the morning, cook myself a meal, boil water for coffee. What life is, it is in front of me. When I read the saying before enlightenment, chop wood carry water. after enlightenment, chop wood carry water, the question arises what changed?.

I thank you for your reply and trying to help me understand. Still, I remain confused with all this as my mind doesn't see these complexities. Saying that breath or the act of breathing is in part spiritual, leaves me wondering if actions turn into portions of ourselves. The actions of the mind to sense conditions brings an uprising of emotions. So, the act of breathing brings a spirit or spiritual sense? My head spins with all these thoughts and ideas. So, let me just say thank you for your efforts to let me understand. And let's just say that I don't get it and probably never will. When Quantum mechanics says that anything can come from from the nothingness of space, I can understand that. But, when one states that breath or watching breath is a spiritual act, my mind freezes. One can say that one is on a spiritual path. However, it seems to me that it is only the real path to follow. All others returns to the beginning. When one says that two quantum objects can share the same information at the same time even though they may be light years apart thru quantum entanglement, okay, I get that but don't understand how since it is faster than the speed of light. So, yeah, I read your words and as I read they make sense. But, how it relates to me, there is a chasm. Still I thank you for trying.

Don't know how you ever came up with this? Meaning how did you discover this truth?? And what way is there for me to verify this? Is this like enlightenment? Just something to aspire to but never really achieving?? Sorry for the so many questions.

The heart where emotions are felt? So, you say that spirit is anchored in the heart? Is the spirit an emotion? Or is it part and parcel of the the heart and its emotions? My emotions are driven by my mind's understanding of the situation to provide a base for my emotions to be felt. To say that spirit is anchored in the heart, means to me, that it is just part of that which ??? .... arises from where into the mind and thus takes it form from the thoughts. Yeah, now more confused than ever. Yeah, all that makes me think of the guy who is holding onto a rope which is anchored on a roof edge. The guy is holding onto the other end of the rope. All the while standing on the rope and walking out into the middle of nowhere. Up in the air by holding onto the rope? Yea, fancy words and lots of dancing around to produce a wonderful show. All of which still makes no sense to me. I guess I am lost and always will be.

Well, you seem to know what spirituality means. What is the spirit and how do I find it in myself?

In my life, I have found that I have a mind and emotions. These things exhibit their properties thru my body. I feel them to be real. I have not found a soul. So when one says something about spiritual this or that, I really do not understand as I have not found there is a soul in my body. In movies, the souls are mostly ghosts of a person who might have existed. They exist in our realm thru their trauma and inability to move on. Where they are suppose to go, I have no idea. I was taught, as a child, to believe in God and have prayed many times usually when I needed help. There has been no action or vision to lead me to believe there is a God. Many have said it is a matter of faith. Where as, the Buddhism says to not just take their word but to actually find out for myself. So, even though I have never experienced enlightenment, I trust there must be such a thing. What it is or how it is , ... well, that is beyond me. Buddhism becomes strange when it declares that this world is an illusion. When I strike my fist against a rock, my hand hurts with pain that makes me feel the truth of this world. It is real. Suffering is real. The more I just sit, I realize that there must be something else or more to this life than just suffering. What is the truth of our nature? Don't know. So when it comes to Buddhism, I listen and hear the words or the wise. My mind goes "Yes, but". And then I sit and My mind goes "Don't know". Is it really one versus the other? Seems to me to be all part of the mix.

Don't know

And this affects the sitting how? When the point of just sitting is .. to not follow thoughts or chase thoughts, how does it relate? When just sitting is .. to allow one to not identify with thoughts and to be present? What is your next thought going to be?