snowymountains

I'm doing physio for this atm, do massages if you can. In any case during the day what my physiotherapist said I should do is ...belly breathing as much as possible (how appropriate an advice to pass on in Daoist forums 😁), as it helps the shoulders relax. Also check posture , height of screen etc when working with a computer.

An interesting parallel in Buddhism is that at least per some "delog" descriptions of the hell realms, there are Bodhisattvas there to help beings in those realms. I don't know if any textual reference to Bodhisattvas helping sentient beings in hell realms was ever made B.C. and if there's anything beyond delog accounts, i.e. if there's something on this in Mahayana Sutras. In any case, better not to draw too many parallels between Abrahamic and Dharmic religions. If the correct interpretation is that Christ eventually liberates all beings in the Christian Hell though, doesn't this sound a bit like, "do whatevs, you'll suffer for awhile but ultimately all will be a-ok, even if you did the exact opposites of Christ teaching's during life on Earth" ? Does Alfeyev comment on this aspect ?

Thank you, if you have the video at hand can you share it? On a side note in energetic practices in Zen ( it only has a handful of them tbh ), energy is either gathered in the hara or pulled down to the lower body, so I gather these would probably qualify as water methods in a Daoist classification ( there is one where it's circulated as well, but none where it moves upwards ). In Daoist water meditation methods, what is the end goal, is it something additional to pulling the energy in the lower part of the body?

Btw beyond Tummo, how do folks find Francis' books on the water methods?

I don't include tummo in my practice tbh, as personally I have no use for it. I'm 100% with Jiddu Krishnamurti on this one, I believe it's nothing more than a physiological response which for some people is ok, for others it may be dangerous, so if one doesn't believe there are benefits to it, there's no reason to practice it. But each to their own, if you find it useful, then you do the right thing for you. In any case, I'm not looking to replace tummo with a Daoist equivalent because I don't practice it. It's more of "academic" interest that I ask. Eg I'm wondering if the fire methods essentially are equivalent to Tummo (?), if so they probably have significant technical differences, as the underlying mental model is a different one. Ps: imo some practices need to be seriously considered before adopted, tummo may be at the border of this but others ( eg Phowa ) do create specific physiological changes that one needs to carefully consider, as there's no guarantee that they're trivially reversible. Just because something is part of a tradition, even a great one, doesn't mean that it's necessarily a good thing for everyone to practice. Reading about it academically is of course always harmless.

Just to add an interesting article I read last year about someone who had a kundalini event and treated it. https://medium.com/publishous/my-kundalini-awakening-and-the-seven-years-of-weirdness-and-bs-that-followed-f03e8d705ffa This is not from a TCM perspective but it may be relevant to anyone who had a kundalini event and wants to treat it. Of course the article is merely indicative and anyone who's had this should talk to their doctor, not rely on the article.

The Tibetan model could be of only psychological significance as Jung believed ( for a variant of the Tibetan with 7 Chakras to be more precise), not anatomical. It could also have anatomical backing, but in either case we just don't know, so we can't make the statement. The fact that nerves and arteries pass through these points does not mean that they have the attributes the Tibetan system assigns to them. So I take it that fire methods are tummo then? How many fire methods are there, tummo variants are not that many. What is the purpose of fire methods in the Daoist arts? One of the practical reasons tummo was practiced in Tibet probably was the Himalayan temperatures ( not the only reason but I'm excluding metaphysical reasons ), I can't see this reason being as relevant in mainland China.

Are you referring to Tummo? First of all are fire methods Tummo? I can't know without knowing what fire methods are about. If so and your question is for tummo, the Tibetan 5 chakras, the central channel and the two side channels are not anatomical parts of the human body. They are a mental model instead, and I would assume that Daoism the underlying mental model would be different, but I don't know what the Daoist techniques look like, hence my question.

Many folks have said similar things, ex macrocosmus , microcosmus, which I don't really see what they mean in this context, In a spiritual setting you can look at the concept of "Unborn" by Zen master Bankei With respect to the ego being a blocker for experiencing non-duality, read almost anything Mahayana. In essence this is what the direct transmission from teacher to student is about in Zen, to experience non-duality, when the student is ready. Though both of the above are not exactly divinity in the sense of an Abrahamic creator God, the above is from a Dharmic point of view. Also you don't need a spiritual framework for this, at least not an institutional one, C. Jung: “The first half of life is devoted to forming a healthy ego, the second half is going inward and letting go of it.” But at the end of the day, something like this may sound nice or not nice, doesn't matter, the actual question is how to get an experiental glimpse of it and for this no forum responses will ever help. Have you ever felt in every cell of your body that you are one with a loved one, a parent, a child? if you had this sort of experience, where the ego was completely off, it's a good starting point.

Depends, in my steady daily practice each day it's usually 2 of Metta, Karuna, breathing meditation ( first four steps of Anapanasati ), 4 elements, insight, maranasati, their Zen equivalents plus some other Zen meditations ( ie Koans, unborn ). I also chant and do walking meditation/kinhin. There's also quite a bit of time devoted in meeting with my teachers both in the context of a class lesson as well as 1-1s & private interviews, then creating notes etc, beyond the meditation sessions done in-class. When I have time for longer sessions, eg to meditate 10 hours per day it's a different story. But the most important thing is to maintain practice every day during the week.

It's a lot of mini-topics that are mixed in your response, I'll try to separate to see them in isolation on the nimitta: The nimitta can appear with any samatha meditation, including samatha on breath, without being limited to the context of anapanasati. The nimitta appears even before the first Jhana, it's just not stable yet, it's pretty obvious what it is when it appears, though two different meditators may sees it with e.g. different colors. In a breath samatha, when the nimitta is stable, it covers everything, also the breath stops ( just for a little time in the 1st Jhana ). So a concentration on the breath is impossible ( because it does not exist ), attention moves to the only thing left to focus on, the (now stable) nimitta. on the point of focus: I mentioned how I defined it before and how I differentiate it to one-pointedness (which is more general in that it includes non-spatial points, e.g. a nimitta). If you want to follow Suzuki for the point of focus, I don't think the end result will differ, in terms of Pali I mentioned before the translation and interpretation I trust/parimukha discussion. On the way you interpret the anapanasati: If I understand what you say correctly, you say first enter jhanas by 3/4 then do insight. It's one of the ways to interpret it, a popular one actually. However the issue in this is what happens if you don't enter Jhanas by the end of 3/4 on that day? Stop meditating there ? For all practical purposes it's impossible to be certain to enter Jhanas every single day when you meditate. The Jhanas are not a requirement to do anapanasati, as is this the only popular way to interpret it. But at this point even though I have enjoyed our discussion so far, I'll refrain as I didn't join these forums to reproduce my notes and experiences on Buddhist meditations in Q&A format, as unfortunately I don't have time for it. I'd really recommend to work with a teacher, instead of trying to figure out all these things alone . What you are doing is honestly impressive, eg I probably wouldn't had been able to figure almost anything out by working alone using translations of the Pali. However, this approach runs into all sorts of practical difficulties. There are also tricky points where you need to make assumptions, that is assign your own interpretation either explicitly or implicitly. If you don't like western teachers, for Theravada you can find teachers from the east, senior monastics do visit centres in the west, you can develop a relationship with them there, then meet over Skype till they visit again etc. Imo that is the way to progress, it will be much more time efficient than using multiple translation sources and discussing these topics in an internet forum format.

Re amygdala it's important to distinguish techniques for when eg someone enters fight or flight ( eg breathing exercises) vs therapy to "reprogram" automatic reactions. The two are very different, eg meditation and breathing does typically won't change automatic reactions, therapy is needed for that. No clue on Daoist 5 element alchemy techniques so can't comment on whether there are relevant concepts there. I don't know how similar they are to Daoist ones ( as I don't know the Daoist ones ) but Tibetan Buddhist 5 elements meditations ( a different 5 elements system btw ) do include regressions. Though these things are done much better by working with a therapist who uses modern methods. Thanks for the direct transmission info, makes it clear how the veil of secrecy has managed to hold..

Thanks, then it's clear why secrecy has survived well in the internet era. I had a gut feeling this was something beyond dependency on oral transmission. It's a method that works but imo it's not an irreplaceable tool.

It is true our body has its own memory and its own automated reactions, I don't see why athletics is a blocker for meditation though nor have I experienced a hinderance because of exercise. On this I can't agree with the Theravada point of view. Also the Theravada view ( it's Theravada who's not too keen on exercise after all ) is that the hinderance is attachment, eg to an impermanent athletic body, not any energy considerations. Some body memories or bodily automatic reactions of course could be a hinderance. People even start therapy because of it as it can cause issues even in everyday life, nevermind attaining meditative states. But that's something different. To go off-buddhism in this paragraph, indeed there are somatic memories and automated reactions coming purely from the body. However the root cause for these is stored in the amygdala. The more modern treatment for that is to work with the amydgala, as treating the root cause there will also eventually lead to treatment of the bodily reaction. All this however is not related to exercising really. It's about blockages, that may affect meditation or even tasks in daily life in more profound cases.

The core Buddhist meditations per Suttas is really a contained set of concise practices. It's simple stuff, and I mean this is in a very good way. Simple is practical, simple works. Agamas and Suttas are different textual sources , from different regions, that more often than not agree with each other ( there are some differences ofc ), so that's the proof that the teachings have not been greatly altered. There are some Buddhist lineages, which feel like they've incorporated so much from other traditions that I wonder if Buddhism or the other traditions have become the focus, but Ch'an is certainly not one of them and neither are Theravada or Zen.

Ch'an is Buddhist, it is based more on the Chinese agamas, rather than the Pali Suttas, so it has a different textual basis but it still Buddhist ( of course Mahayana sutras are part of it's textual basis as well ). There's direct pointing too of course and lineage texts and oral transmissions but it's not void of links to original Buddhist texts. Of course as Ch'an and Daoism were in the same geographical area, there may well have been cultural exchanges, but the textual basis is Buddhist. The energy practices in specific perhaps are of Daoist origin, I really can't know because I'm not familiar with Daoist energy practices. Btw some Ch'an lineages have retained instructions on the Dhyanas (Jhanas). Imo which of the three traditions you pick doesn't matter much, it sounds like you had a bad experience with a bad teacher, find another one, see if they have received transmission, if you like them as persons, if they and their students are dedicated to serious practice, don't act like a cult and look stable.

Their reasoning is that caring too much for the body is clinging at best and narcissistic at worst. I respect Theravada tremendously and practice it but can't agree on this, "too much" is .. subjective. The Buddha after all never said that athletes won't become enlightened, so imo they should specialise the teaching into something along the lines of "clinging to an impermanent condition of the body is an impedance for progress".

Theravada's weak point in my view as well is the body. A TLDR version of the Theravada view is exercise as much as WHO says it's good for health and nvm that WHO has given the same instructions for 16year olds and 90 year olds who just need a little blood circulation to make it to 91. There is nothing explicit in the precepts, even monastic ones, against exercise but the overall vibe is like that. Just take what's good from each tradition, follow their advice on meditation, which is stellar but also don't take their advice on the body and hit the gym. Some may say that hitting the gym is incompatible, well, I'll believe it when I experience it, the whole process is meant to be experiental after all.

Honestly I think you're complicating the view on this, there no need to bring energy in the picture. Join a Zen dojo close to you, meditate daily for 45+ mins. One day after, about a year so, when you'll go for a long/multi-hour session in your dojo, it will just happen. There's no secret sauce to it, really. If you want someone to give you more instructions join a Theravada center near you. Imo either way won't make much of a difference, you could even join both and split your weekdays between the two traditions. They're both great 👍

That's too broad a statement, how meditation is treated depends on the meditative tradition In Zazen practice the body and mind are one. In Theravada it's purely a mind exercise.

I can't know if that teacher was good or bad. The key however actually is letting go, he was right on that. Japanese Zen has zero instructions on how to enter Jhanas, zero, nothing. If you want instructions on how to enter them, my advice is to work within the Theravada tradition, they have very detailed instructions for all meditations and it's a great tradition. I'm practicing both Theravada and Zen, they're both amazing in different ways. If you want to hear a fun fact, the first time I had entered Jhana it was during Zazen and wasn't aware of the Theravada instructions at the time, I didn't even know that this state had a name. So indeed the key is letting go, including letting go of any goals to reach any state.

Actually any practice done specifically to attain Jhana can work against attaining it, as the key is letting go. This is likely why in Zen they've thrown away the instruction manual on how to attain them, intellectual knowledge of steps makes it harder for some people to attain Jhana because they cling to the process and don't let go.

It took some time to dig the other citation on someone not going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus took time to dig up. Another citation in a different thread on Anapanasati also took time to dig. I concluded digging citations is not a good use of my time, so I'm afraid no more citations going forward 🙂. Of course you're free to discard what I write because of that, but I don't plan to turn posts that take me 15 secs to write into chores, it's not a peer reviewed academic paper..

It's completely irrelevant to Dhyanas/Jhanas, you need exactly zero energy practices to enter these. In Theravada they don't do any energy practices at all and they enter Jhana just fine, in Zen too energy cultivation has nothing to do with attaining them.

It's the opposite, it's the top adapting to meet people's expectations, in order to stay relevant ( in terms of power ).