YMWong

So my question is to you then, What kind of fajin (if any) can you demonstrate? I don't need book references - I can use google and amazon for that. I want to see a practical demonstration please.

What do you want to see 'fajin' for, I wonder

'Fajin' means nothing in a confrontation, totally nothing, it has just become a fashionable items sold to the gullible. And by the way some kinds of 'jin' are totally invisible thou of course can ben felt

Much if not all 'fajin' that you see on the web is just people shaking

Ask them to mesure the impact force of their strikes and compare to those of a beginner (western) boxer ... you will be surprised

YM

That is true for me. I've only seen it on youtube and was never impressed by it.

Could you explain pls Mr TMWong?

There are dozen types of 'jin', which is simply a 'trained/integrated' kind of power which has also different characteristics in different martial arts (Taijiquan does not have exclusivity of 'jin').

The different 'jin' can be 'fa(ed)' (issued) in many ways, resulting in a huge number of combinations.

Chen Yanlin lists, I seem to remember, a couple of dozen 'jins' in his Taijiquan book published in the '40.

Anyway, I see the logic expressed in the method and stipulations describes in the original post has having very, very little to do with actual 'fajin' ... if any

YM

With all due respect it seems you guys have no idea about what 'fajin' is

YM

Oh, and don't forget Tao Gaming

and Tao Tasting

Our new double-o-seven looks so cool, obviously a bright man

YM

Shot through the heart, and your to blame, darling. You give TAO a bad name.

Let alone the hard blow to the english language ...

YM

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost.php?p=1059979741&postcount=23

sorry to disappoint you guys

YM

Kathy, thank you for translating.

 

I have one question.

in 秘傳正陽真人灵宝毕法 (LBBF) it is said that 虹霓 (the rainbow)is not an auspicious, or positive, sign in nature.

阴阳不匹配，错乱交合生成虹霓

roughly

"When yin and yang do not match and have disharmonious rapports, the rainbow appears"

Couldn't help thinking about 'rainbow body' that appears in other practices.

 

In the western culture it is associated with Christian belief, in which rainbow is a sign of agreement and peace between Heaven and Earth.

 

Can you explain why the rainbow isn't an auspicious sign in Chinese culture?

(if this is the case, of course)

 

Thanks

 

L1

L1,

the rainbow is an auspicious sign in traditional chinese culture as it is in western culture.

But 虹霓 is not a rainbow but a double rainbow which is considered ominous in chinese culture.

Huainanzi has this to say in his first chapter:

[...] 禽獸碩大，豪毛潤澤，羽翼奮也，角觡生也。獸胎不毈，鳥卵不贕，父無喪子之憂，

兄無哭弟之哀，童子不孤，婦人不孀，虹蜺不出，賊星不行，含德之所致也。[...]

[...] Among the multitude of kinds of wild beasts, the hairs of their coats were sleek and moist.

Their feathers and wings fluttered; their horns and antlers grew.

The embryos of beasts were not stillborn. The eggs of birds were not infertile.

Fathers were spared the grief of mourning their sons.

Elder brothers were spared the sadness of mourning their younger brothers.

Childern did not become orphans. Wives did not become widows.

Double rainbows did not appear. Baleful star did not occur.[...]

Best

YM

EDIT: by the way, in case you want to learn about 'reading' the double rainbow signs I suggest to take a look at the Song dynasty military classic 虎鈐經 (Tiger Seal Classic) which explains in details that:

　　攻敵人之城，有虹霓屈曲從外入者，三日內城屠。五色虹霓飲軍井者，大兇，移營避之。虹霓垂營中者，亦敗兆也。五色虹霓繞城，城中將亂，急攻之。白虹見于軍上者，軍敗流血。白霓貫中，師不可出。白虹繞城而不匝者，從不匝處攻之，必拔矣。繞城而匝者，即俟從漸錯處攻之。赤虹從天直垂地者，所垂之地敵兵至。十一月屈虹出，破軍敗將。天有白虹如霧者，營中防奸，將及兵將反。黑虹所見之地，大水到其處，利于高處置營。赤虹半隱云上，有火災，亦當敗。黃虹在營上，吏士多驚撓。青虹亦如之，不為災。

Had not seen this vid before

http://catalog.digitalarchives.tw/dacs5/System/Exhibition/Detail.jsp?OID=3253490

Ni Hua Ching, who later moved to the US, is shown here in 1970 starting at 00:41 doing Chen style Taijiquan

YM

I actually emailed the above to myself April 14th so that I could post it here Never enough time to fit everything in, not helped by enjoying standing around doing nothing several times a day!

 

I am back doing Tai Chi at lunchtime, but now sneaking in 15 min of standing in the morning and afternoon. It's still very enjoyable.

Mal,

may I suggest that you do no less then 40-45 minutes in a single session instead of two separate short sessions?

Short sessions like that are close to useless in zhanzhuang, in my opinion/experience

YM

Books like Taoist Yoga are written in a manner that makes them difficult to understand without constantly looking up and defining terms. The notion that the text could not possibly be rewritten in simple English, in a very clear and concise manner is false however. It would take probably hundreds of hours of work but it isn't something that is impossible like you make it out to be.

 

Maybe we aren't on the same page, what I am wanting to do is something like this:

 

http://www.enotes.com/hamlet-text/act-i-scene-i

 

It is side by side modern translation of a hard to understand text.

Maybe I am not clear enough on what I am trying to say, I am sorry.

Your example is not useful, as it "translate" a 'subject' you know about.

One thing is the "technical terminology" that of course can be translated into understandable English, but once you have done that you are still left with a useless text.

In my nuclear/kindergarten example, more close to the situation at hand, you can translate the technical terminology of "a proton" to a "subatomic particle" but it won't make much difference for a reader like my mom who has no specific formation/education on the subject. To be frank, even my idea of "a proton" is very superficial and to be able to read (and gather a bit of useful info) from your translation of a nuclear plant manual it would take me thirty years of schooling.

May I respectfully ask you how old are you, MPG?

YM

Eventually I will get around to sitting down and scanning the taoist yoga book, I plan on replacing each weird obscure term with plain and simple english, then going back and simplifying down to a grade school level. That is what it would take for me to be able to read it without wincing, and is actually on my todo list, just way in the back.

But my question is: how on earth could you ever do that?

For somebody who has a kindergarten education and can barely read is it possible to "translate in simple English" the blueprints of a nuclear plant?

And once you have done that, supposing you do, what can the use of that writing be?

Those are "user manuals" to be gone through with the help of a teacher from that lineage, who teaches you what those words mean PRACTICALLY and even then you really understand them AFTER you have done the practice and experienced those words by yourself ...

Best is always to take one step at the time, never make any assumption, and plan goals that are WITHIN REACH only.

You will find that, by the time you have reached that first (close to you) goal your understanding has a lady changed and you next goal is going to be in a different direction that you had expected

YM

Traditionally Buddhist monks used begging bowls while they meditated relying on others to feed them to survive, I believe they too could have gotten off their lazy asses and worked more as well.

Again, MPG, I don't think you are looking at it from the right perspective.

Daoists also are required to beg for food, especially Quanzhen and therefore Longmen.

But this is done to help get rid of ego and offers of food come from the rich, they would not eat food taken from the poor.

Which brings me to suggest you another book by Eva Wong called "Seven Taoist Masters" which is the novelized story of Quanzhen founder and his seven disciples, one of which is the founder of Longmen. Although that is a novel it is very much based on actual history and you can see hints of what begging and money are meant for on a Daoist path.

Best again

YM

Songofdistantearth raises some very important points here, and I'd like to add my comments if I may.

Hopefully I won't sound too judgmental.

Doing by choice a bare minimum and yet making use of government support is, in my opinion, opposite to any path of spiritual/human development.

Actually it is the other way round, we are supposed to do our best if we have the chance to earn up and return whatever we can to those in need, those who really HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE and must be supported.

Moreover, MPG, I really can't see how one can plan his life on something he has totally no idea about.

How in the world do you know we are going to be reborn, what do you know for sure about that?

For as much as we know we might dissolve into nothing and you would be affecting your whole life, and your family and those around you, on a totally wrong belief.

Finally, again, you are after things you don't know (Mo Pai, Longmen) and about which you have only assumptions. Wrong assumptions in my opinion.

Yet, you tell us you practice now once a week "but plan to retire and do more later".

You have "Daoist Yoga" and find it gibberish, yet you take the pain of buying a book even more gibberish (and in Chinese) from a stranger ov the web: for what, if I may ask ?

I am afraid, my friend, you are really going the wrong way. I am sure you trust it is the right thing but .... well ...

My suggestion is simple: find a master and work it out NOW!

Don't worry about the future, about rebirth and about ANYTHING you don't know and you have not experienced yet.

Work it out now, don't wait, and when you'll start experience what it is you can start making plans - STEP BY STEP (only short term goals that are within your reach) - and go ahead with that.

You will discover, trust me on that, that it is no what you think it is

Best in your trip

YM

Interesting, thanks. Where would one run across the word "daoshi" or find it translated? Does it appear in the DDJ or Zhuang Zi?

While the term "daoshi" has been in use quite early, by memory I think as early as the Warrior States, at the time 'daoists' were mostly called by other names: from the earliest 'fangshi' to 'fashi' to 'zhenren' etc.

I think there is no mention in the DDJ, thou I seem to recall a 'daoren' reference in the Xiang'er commentary, and most probably not in Zhuangzi (which might have plenty of "zhenren" and "fangshi" I guess).

A "daoshi" can then be called by other terms depending on his specialization, his lineage, his rank etc.

Most of those original terms, be that before of after the common usage of the term "daoshi" in history, have been translated variously as "taoist" (then 'daoist' with the advent of pinyin in academia) in western sources.

A few authors have tried to suggest terms like "daoist priest" to identify certain characteristics but ever since N. Sivin the bickering around the usage of the term 'taoist/daoist' has been heated.

Anyway, it does not help to look at sources 2000 years old to define daoism or a daoist. Actual daoism is what has been transmetted to us to modern times and it is more important to look at the last couple of hundred years to understand the Tradition.

Academia has understood this problem so much so that in the last few years, after dozen of years spent only looking at written sources of antiquity, studies of daoism in the Qing and late Qing dynasty together with fieldwork done in China finally dominated.

It is to those sources that people in the west should look at for guidance, as they are closer in time and affinity to what daoism is today. For one, I suggest the excellent work by Prof. Liu Xun (Daoist Modern: Innovation, Lay Practice and the Community of Inner Alchemy in Republican Shanghai, Cambridge: Harvard University Asian Center/HUP, 2009)which sheds good light on this issue.

Best

YM

But yes within Daoist orthodoxy there are your exclusionists who will say that even this is not good enough and you must become a part of a Daoist lineage to really experience Dao and have the right to call yourself a Daoist. To reemphasize, I personally don't fully agree with this, however I do respect their point of view and will subsequently not formally call myself a Daoist nor will I claim the authority to teach Daoism.

Guys,

this horse has been beaten to death for YEARS!

First of all no (chinese) daoist would say that one has to "become a part of a Daoist lineage to really experience Dao". I don't know where you get that, but 'Dao' is a concept that permeates chinese history and therefore it is a common idea to everybody and everything. Confucians have 'their' Dao, Buddhists have 'their' Dao and they all agree it is the same old Dao.

The problem of "calling oneself a Daoist" it is very much a semantic issue actually, because the word "daoist" (in english) is a NEW WORD and different people give it different meaning.

As a new word/concept everyone is entitled to call him/herself as such.

If, however, one takes the word "Daoist" as the english translation of the chinese word "daoshi" (or similar terms) THEN it is correct to say it cannot be utilized for someone who has not received oral transmission and has been accepted by a lineage master in a specific (chinese) daoist tradition.

It is quite simple in fact

YM

I'd like to suggest to all friends, if I may, to avoid loosing time after 'secret texts'.

Most of the manuals are just meant for the initiate of that specific tradition and are totally useless for the passer by, they don't contain direct instructions and they are only a 'notepad' for the pratictioner.

As of old, masters knew that practical informations can only be passed on 'hand on' so some sort of DIY manuals only appeared in modern times and those "instructions" are so basic that nowadays it suffices to browse the web to find more details. Those are the likes of Luk's 'Daoist Yoga'.

For those that are after that kinds of instructions I suggest to pick up books like the one recently translated by F. Pregadio (http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html) which actually deals with Longmen sect information.

Best

YM

Are you able to really understand any of them?

 

It seems like even if you know Chinese, they would still be hard to interpret?

As I said these manuals are like the user manual of a car.

My mom, who is old and doesn't drive, may be able to read the words but would not make ANY use of it.

My dad drives, but unless the manual is the one for his own car he too would not be able to make much use of it.

Only the owner of that specific vehicle, with the car at his disposal and having being taught how to drive, will be not only able to read the manual but also make the best use of it.

So any chinese with good classical education would read (much of) these manuals but won't understand most of them, or at best will misunderstand most of their meanings.

YM

I'm pretty sure I don't know the subject I can't read chinese characters nor have I any idea how the mo pai manual looks like.

I went to Master Wang last christmas showing him the picture of the "manual", explained him the 4 levels of mo pai we have little knowledge of and asked him, if this document could be a page of the so called "mo pai manual". he answered: no, this is not what you described me. it's fu.

Well, Kronos, I have concurred with you that the image doesn't seem to belong to Djiang school (thou frankly speaking only those from that line could say for sure, right ?). What I replied to was your assertion that, and I quote:

I showed this picture to Master Wang and Richard 2 months ago and they confirmed me that this pages are not from a "manual",much more it seems to be a Fu.

and expressed my opinion that, in fact, that IS a manual.

Anyway, what is all that fuss about manuals ?

Daoist manuals are totally useless for the non-initiates of that specific lineage, they are akin to the user manual of a Toyota sedan for somebody who has never seen a car: what would one do with that ?

Best

YM

But the link is Fu (which can do magic), not for practice Nei Gong.

Kronos,

with all due respect according to what you say I don't think you know the subject.

The fact that the text shows some talismanic characters doesn't mean the text "is a fu" <sic>, as a matter of fact most mijue (instructional manuals) include talismanic characters.

Moreover, I have not talked about 'neigong'

YM

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M6vX869sJ90/TL5szlK68YI/AAAAAAAAAUc/mtCODSaCY78/s1600/mp.jpg

 

I showed this picture to Master Wang and Richard 2 months ago and they confirmed me that this pages are not from a "manual", much more it seems to be a Fu.

Look at it yourself for some minutes and feel

Kronos,

the attached picture IS a manual.

It is a typical mijue manual which are instruction manuals held by most daoists and are usually passed on to disciples.

I have a collection of around 2000 of these manuals, some of which dating as early as the late Ming dynasty, but of course the manual in the picture has nothing to do with Mozi or Djiang school

YM

let's get our terminology clear here, YM.

Yes, let's clear terminology.

Then the seminar is maybe "small" but still public, as it is open to strangers found on the web just like the one I posted

Anyway, feel free to call it anyway you feel fit

Best

YM

fyi, the price for the public seminar is at least $3500 USD for foreigners now.

Here you go again: seminars are ALL public, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing them here !

And, I repeat, he can charge 35,000 USD and it would not bother me either

Best

YM

that would be the public seminar where you don't have the opportunity to ask Grandmaster any personal questions because there are so many in attendance. by the way, even the public seminars are much more expensive now. my foreign friends who attended didn't even grasp the practice down properly because the translator ratio was so limited. they later attended a private with Grandmaster and thus filled in the many gaps and misunderstandings.

 

The accommodations at the private Intensive have been quite impressive. No one had complaints about the hot springs hotel in dalian. Internet access was available and meals were overwhelming. Laundry service and spa services were available. just so you understand correctly, YM, that we didn't stay at a cheap hotel.

Hello Lotus,

I was just reporting on the 2008 seminar which was public just like the seminar you are proposing.

If the seminar you are talking about were private it would have not been promoted on the web no?

Even the price, that was 3,000 USD (for foreigners) in 2008 shows that it is the same kind of seminar, maybe there are less people now simply because it used to be mostly Chinese (paying 3,000 in local currency) so of course one can raise the same kind of money with 10 times less people if they pay in USD (i.e. If they're foreigners)

For the rest I personally think everyone is entitled to sell his products at the price he feels fit, as long as there are customers ready to spend that money there is no problem.

So I was not questioning the amount of money, which I don't care since I don't attend, but simply reporting some facts as some on the board were asking.

YM

A question why actually $3900? And not $2000,$2500,$1500 or $10000.

What is the grandmasters intention for doing so ?

For people in China 25668.5 Yuan are a big sum or not?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_money_is_earned_by_an_average_Chinese_perso n

An average blue collar makes 1,000-2,000 RMB in China, much much less (down to 2-300 RMB) if he lives in the inner provinces, so that's a huge bunch of money.

But typically Wang's seminar are charged the SAME amount in local currency for the locals, so Chinese will pay 3,900 RMB instead of 3,900 USD.

And by the way typical location is NOT in fancy Hotels, actually quite the opposite, and these kinds of venues when fully booked (usually attendees are in the hundreds) are extremely cheap.

EDIT: official info from the 2008 seminar here (http://hi.baidu.com/qi_gong/blog/item/b7b815fdd7cfe01e08244d71.html), chinese paid 3,000 RMB and foreigners 3,000 USD. Attendees expected up to 500 people. Full board lodging in the hostel they stayed might have been around 150 RMB/day maximum, probably much much less given that it was co-hosted by the local tourism bureau.

Just FYI

YM

PS: was your underlined question a rhetorical one?

unfortunately YM the terms u use have no place in tradition. those are wishy-washy newagee meaningless words

LOL, "taking vows" 受戒 is now a "goal" in daoism ... you made my day

Happy New Year 'tianshi'

YM