YMWong

In your opinion, what are the possibilities of a non Chinese person being successful with these practices?

The exact same possibilities a Chinese has

Do you think essential aspects of these practices can be removed from their original cultural matrix and "transplanted" into a foreign (modern, western) culture?

Yes of course, as long as the basic principles are not removed.

These are extremely "practical" treasures and, while their theoretical background is vast and important, they can in fact be learned successfully as long as hands on transmission happens, no matter where

YM

i'm sure YM's answers may not be too romantic and maybe not as generous in options as your average spiritual philosophy, but i feel they offer a realistic, and therefore, helpful perspective. cutting away the unreal can have the enormous benefit of letting us see our real options, this in turn saves time, time is something we barely have, as humans.

Yes, it is important to realize the difference between the popular approach to Daoism and the actual real thing.

Since early times, Daoism has been spread to the masses through novels and so-called "morality books" 善書. These works are not meant for the actual pratictioner but they are only addressed to the masses, in an effort to spread morality in the population, to reward their good deeds and behaviour with positive hope.

They can be an introduction in that many people in Chinese history got started on their path by reading these works, but they really don't convey reality of Daoist practice and transmission.

It is very much like the story of Newton discovering gravity while being hit by a fallen apple. Even if the story was true, he had tons and tons of real knowledge acquired from proper studies at the time and that causality only generated an idea that was in fact borne out of formal studies.

If we want to become another genius we must therefore find a proper academic institution and follow their curriculum studying hard for many, many years instead of just sitting under a tree waiting for magic to happen

YM

How many stories are there about immortals, or spirit guides, that reached out to transmit teachings?

Most of those stories are true, but they have been passed down to the general public in a novel-like way so - while they have a value - they are not complete.

In fact, immortals will transmit teachings only to those already in their own lineage.

Let's say that one follows a certain teacher and he is, thru the teacher, introduced to that specific line of transmission up to the founder. Only once this is done, and he is accepted by the chain of masters before him, can he work hard on himself practicing the teachings of that lineage and MAY later be visited by the immortals (of that specific lineage) for further guidance.

Failing to be formally introduced to the line of transmission this help from the Sky is basically impossible, unless one is for instance a huge hero who has saved the lives of million people than maybe the immortals may notice him.

It is basically the same in "normal life": one who works for Apple, at any level, and therefore is introduced to the "chain of comman" of the company may be noticed by his superiors and has the opportuny to be given a better job, a better position, higher training.

Another guy who works for a factory in India may hardly be noticed by Steve Jobs, no?

YM

Please note the implication of the definition of internal(內) and external(外) in the Huang De Nei Ching(黃帝內經).

 

1. 內合於五藏六府(internal organs)

2. 外合於筋骨皮膚(tendon, bone, and skin)

CD, I am not sure if you are trying to convince me of something I already know as a practical fact, by searching on the web definitions that fit the paradigm that you have created with your guesswork, but I can assure you that you can find "proof" of any possible scenario you may draw.

"Internal" and "external" simply mean in-and-out, than when you apply that definition to the different situation you get the specific meaning.

Anyway, good luck with your quest

Best

YM

But logically, if the external practice was for the tendons, bones and skins, that would lead one to think that internal would have something to do with the body parts inside. I guess I have to fanatically accept whatever was given.

Guesswork is totally useless with these subjects, and can become extremely dangerous if taken practically.

You don't need to believe what I say, but let me suggest that you don't simply try to understand things "logically" without the guidance of a good teacher as that usually takes people astray.

We all have the (bad) tendency to think we are clever enough to understand things on our own, but we forget that these are Sciences that have taken GENERATIONS of people to develop and there is NO WAY no matter how smart you are that you can match that in a single lifetime.

Best

YM

What do you think of this...???

The External practice corresponds to the saying about the tendons, bones and skin. However, the part on "neigong" contradicts of what you said it "does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy."

CD, the passage you copy-and-paste from the web here quotes the "Modern Chinese Dictionary" which - I hope you will agree with that - is not the perfect reference for what we are discussing about

Best

YM

i heard some people translating that character as : 'no fire' , as in 'a non-fiery qi, not burning, neutral, balanced'

 

do we have this kind of qi in nature? where? how can human beings get in contact with it?

Of course we not only have it in nature but is a prominent kind of 'qi' which exists inside everyone of us!

Let me try to oversimplify the whole 'qi' system so that you may understand how it works: we derive our 'qi' from a "prenatal qi" (also called 元氣 or better spelled 元炁) that is transmitted to us from our parents (and "the past" in general, which includes karma) that is linked to our 精(essence) and is stored in our kidneys.

After birth, we start to absorb two kinds of 'qi' from the air (breathing, which is called 清氣 and is stored in the lungs) and that coming from food and water (that is usually called 谷氣 or 水穀精氣 and it is stored in the spleen). These two 'qi' combines into 宗氣 "zongqi" (central qi) which than combines in turn with "prenatal qi" to generate 正氣 "zhengqi". This final "zhengqi" is the 'qi' that most people speaks about, which flows in the body as 營氣 "yingqi" (nutritive qi, which allows for the body, the organs and their functions to work properly) and on the body surface as 衛氣 (defensive qi).

Is that more clear now?

i read the article about the 'classification of immortals', i remember reading about it not long ago in Eva Wong's translation. however, i'm not sure what 'pure yang' means. can you provide some refference?

All the 'qi' we have discussed above are made of two components, you can imagine that 'qi' as a molecule made of two atoms or like the negative and positive parts of elecricity. Pure Yang means removing one part of the couple and leaving only the other.

It would be like being able to devide a magnet in two by removing the negative side.

Sounds tough eh ?

ps: i understand that 'transmission' of a [neigong etc] lineage requires yuanfen, or fate/destiny, without which the transmission cannot take place. is it a specific type of yuanfen? i remember [the only case of a westerner seeking a real transmision that i am aware of] the case with kosta danaos, he was voluntarely seeking knowledge, but at the same time the master dreamt about kosta looking for him. would that qualify as the specific required type of yuanfen? i myself am not sure what to think, looking at the result, that is, in the end their connection ended in an unfortunate way. of course i just provide a case as an example, it's hard to estimate what really happened.

Yuanfen, in the chinese way of the World, is present everywhere.

One get to know a girl and likes her, they may get together if there is "yuanfen".

They can then live happily ever after or split again, which means that "yuanfen" is finished, changed or was never there is first place.

This is just the way things are no?

j chang also mentioned that there are universal laws that allow for such transmision, especially beyond a basic level, to occur. since all these things have been already figured out, i think we might as well learn about it, to avoid fooling ourselves, and letting others fool us.

There is not much to "know" because, unless one is a fortune teller and can see the future , the future is made by us day by day. There are things that are beyond our grasp, of course, as in everything but at the end of the day it is still all in our hands.

In chinese they say 命不在天而在人手中 people's destiny is not written in the Sky but it is in their hands.

If you plan to travel to Rome and you decide to get there by plane, when you discover the airline is on strike you can either cry about your unlucky destiny or simply get on a train. In this case getting their by plane was not your "yuanfen" but you still can get there as destiny is in your hands, so just change the road/tool and keep the destination.

sorry if i raise too many questions, but your answers kinda determine me to continue to ask, haha. i must say, as the others also noticed, the answers are very clear, and cut through alot of confusion. that, in turn, has the effect of putting less and less time into things that haven't any positive outcome, and leaves more and more time to experience and enjoy everyday life, as deliciously complicated as it is.

for which i am very thankful.

Well said

Best

YM

^^^^^ not sure if serious..

Maybe

Anyway, of course "qi" is not (only) breathing or air!

Qi is everywhere, including inanimated objects like stones and it is not strickly related to breathing in qigong or neigong practice either, as for instance yin-qi is gathered most commonly by contact from the ground.

Best

YM

I agree with the YMWong's comments here and will offer the following information for those who are interested -

炁 (reference - http://www.chinalanguage.com/dictionaries/?pageID=CharDict/View:pinyin&query=7081).

According to my ShiYe, this is the original character for Qi and can only be found in very old Daoist writings.

It is now obsolete and has been replaced in modern use with 氣.

The intention of the old character was to distinguish Qi from Air or Breath which contain Qi but also include other things (oxygen, nitrogen, impurities, the respiratory process, and so on).

Not really, Steve

In the old scriptures both characters are found and 炁 is used to indicate "pre-natal qi" while 氣 usually refer to "post-natal qi"

YM

"內練一口氣 (Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi.)"

I am glad that the original concept reveals itself that 氣(qi) is breath.

No, Qi is not "breath" but the Chinese character for "Qi" has ALSO the meaning of breath hence my translation

So "qi" is simply "qi" because there is no English equivalent, and "breath" is one of the meanings that it entails but there are so many others

May I add:

1. Externally practice was for the tendons, bones and skin.

 

2. Internal practice, besides a mouthful of breath, it was mainly for the internal organs. Otherwise, they wouldn't call it 'internal' for nothing. There is still a little more needs to be addressed for emphasizing the "internal practice". Perhaps some other time.

Of course you can add whatever you feel fit but that is not what the original Chinese say

Moreover, "internal" is relative and it does not necessarily refer to the internal organs.

As a matter of fact, in most cases the "nei/internal" of "neigong" does not refer to the internal organs but to a different (internals) structure which does not have a precise equivalent in modern anatomy.

By the same tokens in fact, 筋 "Jin", which I have simply translated as "tendons", means much more than that and actually also entails the muscles.

But a complete translation would need explanations and it would not be equally efficient/direct.

YM

However, it would be more helpful if we can hear the difference between Waigong(外功) and Neigong(內功)[/b].

As I explain in the article, the difference is cleared in the classical passage 外練筋骨皮，內練一口氣 "Externally practice tendons, bones and skin. Internally practice a mouthful of breath/qi".

YM

so. i think we can agree on the fact that for most of the neigong practitioners, at some point it becomes pretty obvious that the ultimate purpose of the training has to do with karma, transcendence, and afterlife. it's pretty clear that they can't count on qigong for that, as all bodily related energies will vanish as soon as their container withers and dies. at what stage during a neigong practitioners training is he able to take with him the fruits of his training into the afterlife. do the chords of karma need to be severed before that?

Simple death in Daoism is a form of immortality, the lowest, so one becomes a "ghost (immortal)" 鬼仙.

In this case, as the pratictioner has not reached a "pure yang" state, his "hun" and "po" spirits will dissolve and he won't be able to pursue his practice in the afterlife.

As long as a "pure yang" state is achieved, which can be done at different levels, one will be in a condition to eventually pursue practice and continue on his path if he is willing to.

The are many levels, an overview of which you can find here http://www.hudong.com/wiki/仙人#7, which gives birth to different states so different positions "in heaven" (or wherever that is )

Best

YM

so, if my understanding is correct, the neigong energy can be used for various purposes, meanwhile qigong energy focuses on health. to your knowledge, to what other purposes, other than martial, can real neigong energy be used for. it kind of makes sense that nowadays the focus on martial goals should not be as important as in the past. which means today most practitioners use it for other practical purpose. how can that be done specifically? does it happen by itself as the amount of energy grows, or does intent, yi, play an active part. just share what you can.

Neigong is a tool and it can be used for many different purposes, martial been only one.

Just like having and learning to use a car: you can use it to race (as in martial) but also to pick up your kids from school, to go to work, to actually get a good job, to travel at leisure and visit new places or even to repair yourself from the rain

It is just a basic tool, then the lineage and personal preferences will direct one with time toward different goals.

Those goals may need additional instructions or not, depending on where one is in terms of development and where he wants to go.

Everything is always done one step at the time

YM

I find it interesting, because that's the opposite of how it was explained to me by my teacher. Qigong was described as working with external energies, and neigong as working with internal energies.

It's good; if we all were in agreement on everything sharing here would make no sense

YM

Hello YM,

 

could you elaborate a bit on the difference between qigong and neigong? I know qigong is quite a modern term, and these kind of practices were once gathered under the umbrella-term yangsheng. As such, it seems most of them are part of China's popular cultural heritage, however we sometimes see people mentioning various forms of qigong taught in monasteries and temples in Asia. I must say that the subject seems a bit fuzzy.

Furthermore, do qigong and neigong complement?

 

Probably most of us have their own ideas about the subject... just curious about a traditional perspective.

 

Thanks!

 

E.

The term qigong has been widely used to cover all "energetic" practices, including in most cases "athletic-only" ones, since the 50s but it is not a new terms.

I have a few manuals dealing with "qigong" (in the title) from Republican era and many others which discuss "qigong" in their content, long before the 50s then.

Historically speaking, as everything else in Daoism and in the Chinese Tradition in general, there is not ONE single interpretation of a subject or a term but different schools see and believe in different ideas often at the exact opposite side of the spectrum. This does not mean that "everything works" or that everything is true, of course, but schools with a history of accomplished masters can practically testify to the goodness of their theories/believes/practices.

Nowadays, for as much as it is my experience, most schools and traditions labelled as "qigong" transmit either a void kind of gymnastic or at best a form of 'tuna' which is meant to balance the flow of "qi" already existing in the pratictioners' body. No matter what the advertisement say, this is used at best to produce balance of the body functions and therefore health.

The term "neigong" has now been used in place of "qigong" in many schools because it sells better, but in the vast majority of cases they still teach some kind of qigong.

This practice should allow for the absorption of "qi" from outside and the usage of it to strengthen the body, the mind or to be used for any purpose the pratictioner has as its goal.

Needless to says there is some little overlapping between the two practices but in general they are very different. A typical "neigong" usually looks like the practice you can see on the documentary "secrets of the yogis" or whatever it is called (I think there is a thread open here on Thetaobums).

Finally, for what concerns your question about the possibility for qigong and neigong to complement each other, it very much depends on the specific practice but in general I would say no, they don't. As a matter of fact many or most (actual) qigong can be practiced together since they work energies already existing in the body. Neigong, on the other side, creates, builds and generate a new kind of energy from the outside. The energy thus created has a "frequency" and characteristics peculiar to the system (the way it is created) so mixing this system with another would create huge problems as you would be mixing TWO different kind of energies.

Best

YM

Sitting practice, slowing the mind and metabolism, focusing on absorbing energy. Or something similar.

MPG,

"meditation" does not necessarily happen in sitting position and does not necessarily "slows down the mind and metabolism". Even "focusing on absorbing energy" is not necessarily related to "meditation", thou it is usually one of the concerns of neigong.

Anyway, here is for you:

Dantian is the sea of “qi”(energy), the basis of “qi” practice. If the “qi” energy in your dantian is not full nothing else could be achieved. To practice dantian “qi” the body must be naturally straight, feet parallel at a distance of about four inches. The right hand holds the left hand with both arms stretched out and both hands close to dantian, as in picture 1. Then close your mouth and hold the breath (this “breath” refers to one’s regular breath and not to extra air breathed-in on purpose) for about two minutes. Then raise your head and start to swallow bringing down [saliva/qi] to the dantian with the mind, following with your eyes and head while at the same time bending your knees as in picture 2.

Best

YM

Could you quote a sentence or two from the manual that deals with meditation?

What do you mean by 'meditation'?

YM

Yeah that's what I was thinking. Do you understand it to be a set handed down through taiji lineages or broadly through internal schools and families? Or even "hard" style schools?

The specific set you are talking about only exists in some Wu style schools, so it must have been included at some point in that lineage. I seem to recall that the same practice was passed down by Frank deMaria (not sure about the name) in his shuaijiao curriculum in the US, there was an old video with his performance which was exactly the same as the one in Wu style.

More in general, different schools have included existing neigong sets or have created their own.

These are meant to develop some body or mind qualities which can be used in different settings, and of course a martial artist use them to help him/her with his goals

YM

Do you have anything on the Wu family 24 exercise nei gong set in the archived articles?

No we don't, I am sorry

That is another set introduced into Wu style which you can find in other styles/curriculums

YM

I am afraid we don't sell PDF version of the Journal which is a 140 pages, no advertisement, full-color, printed-only magazine.

Neigong always includes practice of both the mind ("meditation") and the body. As a a matter of fact most so-called "martial" neigong are not originally martial in nature, they are usually simply sets which have been introduced to a specific martial curriculum to enhance certain body/mind qualities.

It is the case of this set too, which was introduced by the present manual author (Bao Ding) in his xingyi curriculum after having learned it in the 20s.

Most of what is taught, or better to say 'sold', nowadays is not neigong but in fact in the best cases just various forms of qigong.

YM

For those eventually interested our new issue 6 of JOCMS is now available with the full translation on an early republican era neigong illustrated instructional manual.

www.martialstudies.com.hk

Best

YM

So, "offended" is not the word to describe my feelings, "familiar with your agenda" is more like it.

Amen

YM

YM

Taomeow, please feel free to read whatever you want in my messages.

I just posted a nice video of an old man that somebody sent me a link to. I don't know the old man and I have just been told the few things I reported here, which sounded nice to my ears after reading messages after messages of how good was to save a few hundreds of dollars from fees of many thousands.

If my message or the video offended you I am sorry, that was certainly not my intention, but I am sure many will gain from watching it as I did.

Take care

YM