YMWong

Just checked again, this is the original article

http://www.appledaily.com.tw/appledaily/article/headline/20070715/3644468/applesearch/

that can be found with Jiang's name as a string.

No rebuttal can be found on the same magazine with that string.

YM

I am not certain when, where, or even *if* his retractions were ever published. As I said, "Unfortunately publishing retractions is less enticing than publishing defamatory articles."

Well, you also said

A disgruntled student who wanted immediate results and subsequently slandered Shifu in an article, then publicly retracted his statements later.

I would tend to exclude the Apple Daily anyway, as I recall quite clearly having checked and found the original article with Jiang's string that - however - did not give result of the supposed rebuttal.

Frankly speaking, I still doubt there was any

YM

1: A disgruntled student who wanted immediate results and subsequently slandered Shifu in an article, then publicly retracted his statements later. Unfortunately publishing retractions is less enticing than publishing defamatory articles.

I recall at the time the first article was available on the web portal of the journal/magazine so I suppose the retraction is also available: would you be so kind to point me to that material?

Thanks

YM

The fact that not only can he *demonstrate* the skills that practically no on else has, but that he also has a verifiable track record of successfully *transmitting* them to his students, that the transmission takes place within a comparatively *short* timespan, and that he is *willing* to do so ... *that* is what makes it worth it.

So let's say that in a "comparatively short" timefrane one can learn from him, say it is in 10 seminars - 10 *4,000 = 40,000 US$ to learn to cut a hole on a piece of paper ? This is worth it, in your opinion, right ?

Again, this presupposes that you are actually interested to cultivating the ability to demonstrate objectively verifiable qi phenomena.

I can demonstrate the same "phenomena" with a laser pen which is maybe 1/1000 of that cost, and can do it in an even more "comparatively short" time. Are you interested ?

YM

If you think the seminar is too expensive, that's certainly your prerogrative.

I am afraid that is the prerogative of any normal person, the vast vast majority of us

If you had met Dr. Jiang before and experienced his gong firsthand, I doubt you would consider it a "ripoff".

So the fact that HE has certain skills, which remains to be seen, would make the amount of money requested fair?

And what about somebody's morale, beyond his skills, for asking about ~400 times the average salary for 10 days of work in China?

That would be like making ~2-300,000 US$ in America for 10 days of work: would you find that acceptable ?

YM

So if I play on the team, I'm a Miami Dolphin, but if I play football all day and don't have a team, I'm a fan.

No, if you play all day and don't have a team you can be a football player but not a Miami Dolphin

A Miami Dolphin makes million a year playing, a "football player" at best sweats and maybe doesn't even know where is Florida

YM

but my question is, specifically, are you talking about religious daoists? or alchemical daoists? a particular branch of organized daoists? which daoists in particular are the ones that hold the belief that everyone else is just a fan?

Daoists are simply Daoist, there are no "religious daoists" or "alchemical daoists", those are categories made up by those outside the tradition

why in the writings of lao and chuang do they not say "find ye a lineage" but instead just talk about closeness with dao as if anyone had access to it?

I don't know much about Christianity but I read that John baptized Jesus, but who baptized John?

There is always a beginning, hopefully nobody dare to compare themselves to Laozi

By the way, "Daoism" and therefore "Daoist" appeared as terminology well after the texts you mention which are not "the bible" of Daoism

YM

Sorry, double posting

It is very simple in fact.

A (Medical) Doctor is such if he has followed a specific academic curriculum and has completed it with success.

Then there are healers who are maybe very good at what they do, but they are not Doctors.

When one is sick he can choose to get help from a healer or from a Doctor: a healer might be better than many doctors but it is only with a doctor that we are sure about having to do with somebody with a minimum standard knowledge of the subject. And of course medicine is where it is because of the medical (official) advancements and not thanks to the few good healers we have around.

To be a Daoist one must be officially taught by a Daoist, who can pass a complete curriculum of knowledge which in turn was passed down (and evolved) thru generations of pratictioners. Through the transmission, the new pratictioners is introduced to the line of teachers before him and therefore he is "known in Heaven".

Then there are people who might be spiritually good, many of them gain their insights through different means including Nature or even readings of Daoist-ish texts. While some of these people might again be very good at what they do, they certainly cannot be called daoists.

In both cases, this real transmission is not a guarantee of success (which is in the hands of the pratictioner) but a precise road indication without which most people are bound to go astray. If one who has never been on a mountain and he wants to hike the Himalayas he can only do it with the help of a guide who has done that road before him, following him and his indications step by step.

Trying the hike alone will lead most, if not all, to certain death.

YM

I'm a digger [...]

YM

You are not wrong and you are not right -- it is exactly like I said: depends on who you ask. The reason I know that the name is applicable is because it is applied -- that's what I was told in the History Museum of Shaanxi Province when I asked the guide who those gods are. She cited several sources for various interpretations of their names and designations, of which I remember little except for the crucial fact that trinities are legion and "pure" among them are the ones the worshippers designate as such. When I looked online the other day, I saw only two entries and a bunch of pictures that mention it's the same thing, and a statistically larger number of those that assert it's different. (That's how I can always tell who has learned whatever they offer hot off the internet! -- the lowest common online denominator will invariably rule in their pronouncements.)

LOL

YM

You're too modest.

Thank you

YM

You can't throw an "opinion" ...

you can't really "put me in my place ...

You can't just correct me from ...

You are funny

YM

Depends on who you ask.

Yep, if you ask somebody who doesn't know he may say they are the same as the Three Pure Ones

And by the way, also

In Guandong, the Three Stars are called Fuk, Suk, Luk and are far better known as "kitchen gods.

is wrong, as the Kitchen God (in Guangdong and elsewhere) is NOT related to the Three Pure Ones or to fu-lu-shou, he is a separate God

YM

I recently bought three statues of Chinese gods. To make a long story short, I just wanted the statue of Guan Yu, but the other 2 figures came with it as a package so I bought em all. So getting to the point who are the other 2 gods flanking Guan Yu in the attached picture?

Right and left are the remains of an original trio fu-lu-shou, as somebody said.

The central one is Guan Gong, not related to the other two as you can see even material and details are totally different.

And yes, by the way, fu-lu-shou have nothing to do with the Three Pure Ones (sanqing)

YM

In cantonese, I would get it because I watched so many Wong Fei Hoong kungfu movies.

LOL

Don't waste your time. He lists a partial lineage of Youlong Pai which is obviously taken from some Chinese articles, then his final line is actually zhaobao, at least from the few final names he mentions.

You can find million of zhaobao videos in YouTube

YM

i saw a documentary about reckon marine military training (an elite of the marine corps), there were 70 people that had to work through 3 months of (as the instructors describe it) "living hell". the physical ability of those marines was already very good, yet they had to complete missions that required them to push through their limits. the instructors were shouting at them repeatedly, that it was not as much a test of physical strenght, as it was a test of attitude and dedication to the mission.

Yes, and with Daoist practices there is not even the help of making usage of anger or shouting because calm is one of the basic requisites be be attained and kept thru out the routine

YM

that means that even an average joe can enjoy the benefits of jogging every day, and never be dissapointed that he will never become an olimpic athlete.

One who wants to be an olympic athlete must first make sure to have the qualities necessary to be one, which apart from some eventual inborn talent are mostly geared around the ability to stand the pain and never give up.

One who does not have them, and here we talk about the vast vast majority of us, and yet get disappointed on not getting that gold medal is an idiot and should watch himself at the mirror as this is the one to blame.

dedication is really difficult to understand here in the west, you know, there are tons of motivational books and motivational speakers/leaders, but motivation and dedication are so different. i've learned more about it coming in contact with Asian culture, and surprisingly, "military" culture.

Dedication is not learned through books or speakers but it is fully dependent on ourselves.

Some have the "fortune", or misfortune when looked at from a different angle, to be born in the right situation: you can look at the history of many of our musical "talents" for instance, and you will see how they were stripped of their youth by a strict family who put them over a musical instrument (for instance) hours and hours a day since they were born.

Nothing else but music, eat, music, sleep, music ....

Those who are grown up and can decide for themselves don't have this luxury of being forced and, as I said, can only blame themselves if they don't reach their goals.

Luck of course plays a part, as everything in life, but it is usually a minor one.

YM

This is a mostly misunderstood subject, and often on purpose as the various "Dao of sex" <sig> lessons sell well.

First of all "jing" does not strictly mean "semen", while it is related to it they are not the same thing.

Celibacy for Daoist practice means total abstention, which include desire, any thought and the likes.

Meditation, I mean real meditation, shall lead to a loss of desire too so as you said practice and abstention are linked in a complex manner.

The schools/sect which do not have FULL (complete) celibacy as a rule shall require the pratictioner abstention in particular times, during which Qi can be accumulated, Jing can be eventually transformed etc. As I said in my previous message, those substances are continuously accumulated as long as one lives and in particular when one practices properly. They are however also consumed/wasted by the body so this is where practice and following the rules makes a difference.

Jing, Qi and Shen are always present in the body as long as one is alive.

In the same way that standard gymnastic transforms the body, as for example I have the same muscles in my legs as an Olympic marathon champion but there is no way I can even got close to compete with him, Daoist practice transforms the subtle body.

Just like with the leg muscles then, we basically all have what it takes to do the job.

What most of us don't have, however, is an expert to teach/guide us and - most of all - the commitment and dedication to follow the training.

Again, think about what an Olympic athlete can endure and see how many of us could do the same - then multiply that by many, many times

YM

Complete (life) celibacy is a requirement of Quanzhen and various other schools.

Zhengyi and many other groups observe the rule in the occasion of certain practices, rituals or specific times.

YM

The interpretation of 化(hua) as 'transform', even in Chinese(changed into), always bothers me. It is an esoteric Taoist term. Therefore, it cannot be interpreted with the modern definition of the character. Since the word 'transform' did not make much sense, I had been searching for a more logical explanation. Finally, I have come across a good definition which made it more logical in the explanation about the three treasures.

 

The modern definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): to change; transform; to educate.

 

The esoteric Taoist definition for 化(hua4) is:

化(hua4): engender, produce, generate.

 

Now, it makes more sense...

1. Jing engenders Chi;

2. Chi engenders Shen;

3. Shen engenders Void.

 

Hence, we have the following conditions:

1. While Jing was producing Chi, the Jing still remains.

2. While Chi was producing Shen, the Chi was maintained.

3. As long as Chi exists inside the human body, Shen will be continuously display the physical appearance of Chi. Thus Shen is not a substance but only an image which distinguishing the health condition of the human body. Shen will be diminished as soon the Jing and Shen are vanished and then the human body dies.

 

There are two kinds of Jings, e.g., prenatal and postnatal. By only using the ancient esoteric Taoist explanation about the treasure, it does not give us a clear understanding. Therefor, we should look at the three treasures, separately, by interpreting these esoteric terms with modern scientific term for a better understanding.

So much confusion ...

If you are not a pratictioner, as it seems from your "interpretation", you can consider using logic which is also totally missing in your writings

If the original writer wanted to mean "generate" he would not have used "hua" 化 but "sheng" 生 instead, you say you read the DDJ you should know better

So "transform" is the correct translation in that, to use your words "when jing transforms to qi, jing IS NOT maintened".

Again, just use logic: we breath, drink and eat and our body TRANSFORMS those substances into nutrients that produces movement etc.

When those substances are transformed they are GONE, and we keep creating them simply because we keep breathing, drinking and eating.

Stop one of those and you will die.

So drink a can of coke and your body will transform it to piss (and various other things)

After you piss the coke is gone and you will be able to piss again tomorrow only if you assume new liquids

YM

More simply they are of course represented in iconography the way people of their times used to look like, be that hair, beards or clothing

A grown up male in old China would be 'naked' without his "five peaks" (a pair of mustaches, a pair of lateral beards and a goaty - the only beard most Chinese ethnics could afford)

YM

There is a concept that's been bugging me for years, related to the practice of neigong and qigong, namely the notion of 'chi field'. It reffers to a kind of vibration field that is generated by a group of practitioners that do the practice together. Supposedly, the master can 'tune' the 'field' to help the practitioners, boost the 'signal' of the practice, which contains the 'transmission'.

Is this something that you, during your studies and experiences, have fond to be part of the 'real thing Daoism', or is it just a 'popular approach'? What is it exactly?

Each one of us is a microcosm and we are connected to the outside (the macrocosm) and to each other at a gross level through our senses.

We are also connected at a finer level through what you call "vibration", what common people refer to as "feelings" and what the Chinese call (again) "qi".

Like a mobile phone that can be connected to a far-away antenna signal when the right frequency is found, we can also connect to each other or to "the outside" in a similar way.

To connect and send/receive data you need an advanced device (a transmitter or whatever it is). Within our body we need to build such qualities which have long been lost.

So a real master can and sometimes DO connects with his students in various ways, to check with their practice or to help with the same.

This connection can take various 'forms' which may include the kind of transmission you talk about, but again this may happen or not depending on the situations so its presence (or absence) is not necessarily a sign we are talking about "the real thing"

YM

If you don't mind, could you describe a little bit what you mean by a "transmission"?

 

I expect that the term refers to something more than having a master on hand to offer corrections and answer questions, but other than that I am a little vague on what the actual meaning is...

Hello Mike,

in general terms transmission simply means what you mention i.e. been accepted by a (real) master who truly agrees to teach.

This "acceptance" may take different forms and specific "procedures" depending on the lineage rules and the kind of material passed down, but all in all it simply means finding a master and receiving guidance from him/her.

YM