YMWong

And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ?

Here is a short summary of Wang Zhe's (Longmen founder Qiu Chuji's teacher) life and how he got to be one of the most influential daoist master of his times.

I can hardly see any "strict graduation path" in there (source http://books.google.com/books?id=EXVk1tr6lEYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=daoism+handbook&hl=en&ei=uA9JTZLgKouKvgOhysH7Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wang%20zhe&f=true)

YM

that is a really strange thing to say for a historically well versed expert as YM surely is. of course there WAS a strict graduation path in any daoist tradition. one wonders what daoism YM talking about, a pop one? then he is right.

I am talking about real knowledge, wisdom and personal growth while you are talking about standard education.

Anyway, I certainly don't know much about daoist history or anything so I'd be glad to learn a little from you.

For instance, as you ask what daoism I am talking about, what "graduation" did Qiu Chuji (founder of Longmen daoism, which is of course "the daoism I am talking about" given the title of the thread) got from his teacher ?

At what time in his path did he "master his system" and get his "degree"?

And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ?

Thanks

YM

Yeah... I assume... but time is relative, isn't it?

 

[...]

 

 

And regarding the topic of studying with different masters... did it usually happen

at the SAME time or after a system was mastered?

 

[...]

 

Harry,

In Daoism, as well as in life, there is no such a thing as "mastering a system". Daoism is not a university where you get your degree and you can call yourself a Dr or what.

It is a never-ending process of self discovery and progress, there is no end.

Different masters, in this respect, may give you different approaches to that progression and lead you further along the way.

Don't mistake Daoism for the martial arts, there are no "new techniques" or "secret strikes" to be learned. When a student is well along the path he will learn in many ways and from different sources, and it is historically proved that this approach works.

Then again every one is entitled to see things as they fit, I was just presenting an historical fact and not an exclusive solution for all.

Thanks

YM

Just can't resist...

 

they probably had much more time for practice back then

 

with smiles

 

Harry

They had 24 hours a day like us, I think

YM

yes, it's Grandmaster's students who are cognizant and understand his level that have elected to seek no further.

Every person is certainly entitled to do as they wish.

However, 2000 years of Daoist history in China show us that ALL famous masters if the past learned in their life from many, many masters, often from different lineages.

Just take a look at the numerous hagiographies still available from the early days of Daoism down to the Qing dynasty and you will see that this is the standard.

I personally would tend to follow in the past masters steps, but of course this is just me

YM

I guess i will have to wait till im a royal emirate and then he can offer knowledge.

LOL, how (sadly) true

YM

http://www.youtube.com/user/Alexpower888#p/u/0/r109YEPKZe8

YM

Thanks again YM.

 

To better understand what you mean, could you please expand a bit on what this word means to a daoist practitioner?

It's 功德 in Chinese, the favorable response from Heaven after one makes a virtuous action

If you read the popular 太上感应 which is also available in English it is explained quite well, it's basically the law of action and reaction

YM

I don't get it, how can buying a book earn you good karma

In fact it doesn't

There are (other) books which are considered 'meritorious' for those who spread them, so in a way purchasing them and spreading their words can bring 'good karma'.

Most commonly however people who can are required to support their printing and they are then distributed for free.

But that is not the case with this or similar books, which are not really meant to be spread among people but are usually made for the initiates.

The most common 'merit' book is for instance the likes of 太上感应, these are very simple 'what to do' books meant for the common population (peasants) that are supposed to generate a 'good' 善 society.

It is true that some classics have a 'talismanic' power and simply owning them provide some sort of 'blessing', but again this is not the case of the mentioned books but more those real classics like the Dao De Jing.

YM

the sponsor of the second edition directly contradicts this:

 

顾或者曰：「昔锺祖云此经以八卦连十二时，其要在艮， 三田反覆，要在泥丸，下手工夫， 姑借咽气漱液为喻，而真气口诀，实在口传心授，不在文字间也。」 予细读数次， 见修真口诀， 详且尽矣，其词虽隐而不发，其道则已跃如也。

 

A visitor told me:...........the oral secrets were not put in writing. I, however, after reading many times, (was able to) see the true oral secrets....

LOL, I guess an introduction to a book that goes for sale can hardly say "you have just wasted your money, this book cannot be understood without a master"

Moreover, the world is simply filled with people who believe they know this and that, who think they have understood: just browse this forum and you will see

YM

Hello L1,

while of course I agree with you re: time and will to practice, I have to say that it is NOT the information that is missing. Or not the key, anyway.

The daoist canon has been openly reprinted a number of times, and it has been more or less easily available for hundreds of years - especially since its reprint in the 1920's anyway. Imagine then how many chinese were able to access it, if willing, and somehow also able to 'read it'. At the time they didn't have much 'entertainment and technology' yet ... and still ... few ever made it to practice and get any benefit.

Why ?

Simply because the information that one can get from a book, or a video from the internet, is USELESS for practical purposes. For that one needs a capable teacher willing to teach, first, and then time and will to put enough effort on the practice

YM

All of those books and any other are good "for information only".

Each one has bad flaws and each one has some good insights.

Just read them "for information only", there is no need for 'structured steps' because there is not such a thing in daoism.

You are looking for something you don't know with preconceived ideas of what it should be, so it's going to be hard to find it. You can get ideas and information from books, but no practical knowledge.

Each school has its own steps and its own rules, some totally opposite to each other, get yourself a teacher and learn from him/her.

YM

It is a vaste of time to translate the original unless one is really skilled with Chinese and is familiar with the proper terminology, much better (and way easier) to just translate the French version where much of the 'interpreting' has been done. That book is a work of a second generation scholar of the french school, quite dated in terms of daoist scholarship which has done huge steps in the last 20 years but still much much better then what any wannabe scholar (with all due respect) can do on this board.

Moreover, any and all of these kinds of books cannot be properly (if at all) understood without the oral teaching from a daoist master. In this direction, it makes more sense to read any other study/research on the subject by any of the popular scholars which are now easily available all over the web and through Amazon.

Just my opinion of course

YM

The book has not only been reprinted many times, so that it is easily available in many forms in chinese, but it has even been translated (in french) many years ago by Farzeen Baldrian-Hussein

http://books.google.com/books?id=4k4eqN32I0AC&lpg=PP1&pg=PP1#v=onepage&q&f=false

YM

Chinese God of Thunder (Lei Gong)

YM

Someone please correct me, but "Mak" is just an honorific prefix, right?

No, Mak is the funny man family name

Tin Si would be the honorific title, if the funny man would not have given it to himself like he did

YM

Funny "master" Mak is back with his daoist baseball

http://www.youtube.com/user/Chiinnature#p/a/u/2/FoHd0lNWsvo

LOL

YM

http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/10

 

So i don't belive teh lineage of Xing Shen Zhuang, came from any of these Six Great Paths of Taoism.

This 'six great path of daoism' <sic> is another creature of Verdesi, as there is not such a thing

YM

XSZ is only one of the MANY forms invented in China in the 80ies on the wave of the Qigong fever.

It was invented by Pang Ming and started to spread through his seminars and lectures, he also published a book which describes the whole practice and its origins cover of which I have scanned for your reference

Needless to say, Verdesi and many others have embroidered stories recently on many of these decent but very bland practices re-ingineering them commercially into superior 'daoist' <sic> practices

They are not

YM

"The Three Pure Ones are envisioned both during ritual and meditation, and they are embodied as three vapours (green, yellow and white) in the three dantian. "

 

The colors seem a bit strange to me... Anyway, with which dantian are they associated? I'd like to try that for personal practice.

Yuanshi Tianzun = upper dantian = green (blue-green)

Lingbao Tianzun = center dantian = yellow (yellow-gold)

Daode Tianzun = lower dantian = white (bright white)

YM

it would be interesting to find the relation between the 3 pure ones and the tan tien. I know it's a one to one relation, although I never remember which is related with which :-(. But I suspect there might be practices that connect the two, the external representation with the internal field.

The Three Pure Ones are envisioned both during ritual and meditation, and they are embodied as three vapours (green, yellow and white) in the three dantian.

I think Prof. Saso touches the subject in both his "TOTMC" and "The Gold Pavillion"

YM

Hello YM,

Thanks for the link, very cool - do you have any recommendations or links for those that would like to learn more about these sets? Are there any translations of the instructions or any instructors you'd recommend?

 

Also very interesting that movements were repeated at a different angle of the torso, keeping more tension in the abdomen.

I don't know if there are any good teachers around for this set.

I have seen a few in China, and Taiwan where the routine is also popular, but I have seldom seen any quality.

The guy is in the video seems good, but I got that from a documentary so I don't know his identity.

I don't think this material has been translated before, if there is enough interest I might consider doing some more from that same source (Bao's 1922 text).

Best

YM

For those interested I have posted a video and the first step of instructions of a Neigong set included in various martial curriculums, and popularized by late Xingyi master Bao Ting in the 1920s

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Journal-of-Chinese-Martial-Studies/303546464693?v=wall#!/pages/Journal-of-Chinese-Martial-Studies/303546464693?v=wall

Best

YM

Shure you have - - - that is why you use "LaoWai" - "Gweilo" is the common term -meaning "white devil" that has been used since the 16th century.

Not at all !

'Laowai' 老外 is a respectful way to address a foreigner in China, it means 'old (lao) foreigner (wai)' where 'old' is a sign or respect.

'Gwailo' 鬼佬 is a cantonese term used only in Guangdong/Guangxi and Hong Kong and it means 'ghost (gwai) man (lo)'.

It has been in use in southern China since the massive arrival of foreigners, mainly european, during the 19th century.

The northern version of 'gwailo' is 'yang guizi' 洋鬼子 (western ghost), which is however mainly used in northern China and seldom used to address directly foreigners.

YM

now to translate 至道 (the Ultimate Dao) as "Dao is touched" is an elementary mistake similar to translating "Your Highness" as "oh, you are so tall".

 

至道is a set phrase , a basic title for the Dao. The fact that Saso mistranslates it so naively tells everything one needs to know about his grasp of the subject.

 

 

..so now we have another aged cosmopolytan polyglot western scholar who mistranslates the most basic of phrases in those VERY clear texts. He is ordained (immersed) too!

 

the circle is complete.

TS,

Prof. Saso's works are often mediated by his personal hands on experience and study with Daoist masters in China and Taiwan, nowhere he claims to present 'translations' of any text but 'interpretations' based on his studies and practice.

From the "Gold Pavillion" I quote [Preface X]:

This said, I guess Prof. Saso is a human being and can make mistakes like all of us.

You should think about publishing your translation of the text, so that we all can learn from your extensive knowledge.

Best regards

YM