YMWong

No he doesn't. I know this for sure. But he does get people asking him questions about 25 hours a day.

 

[...]

 

FOr as much that I wish you could. It would make all our life so much easier.

 

Pietro

Let's put it this way then: in 30 years of dwelving in Daoist Studies in China I have never heard or read of any Kunlun School. And, yes, there are lists of Daoist Schools thou of course they can hardly been called "complete" as they were written by *people* who hardly knew it all.

If BKF knows of a Kunlun school in China, apart from the Taiwanese line as I said, I'd be most interested to hear more info about that.

'Kunlun' the name is of course everywhere in China/Daoism but that's a different issue.

YM

this is simply not true.

 

kunlun school is one of the oldest disciplined schools still in existence. it predates wudan by about 1,000 years.

 

as i said, the wild goose system is of the kunlun school. it's over 1800 years old.

I'd be happy to see evidence of this, thanks

YM

He then added a few other names. I wish I remember them. But I do remember Buddhism, and Kun Lun.

Pietro,

this mean BKF most probably reads this board as there is no mention of a 'kunlun' school anywhere in Daoism.

The term was first utilized by some early 'wuxia' (martial novels) writers and later employed by the late Liu Beizhong (Pei Chung) in Taiwan. His school, which had quite a few following and is still somehow popular there, practices a mix of martial arts and meditation derived from different traditions in China.

Nothing to do, at least for as much as I read here, with what this guy Max does.

It is however quite interesting to see what kind of interest and following can people like this Max or Verdesi can have in the west.

To each their own, I guess.

YM

Where is the photo?

YM

For those interested I have scanned and uploaded the translation to Chen Yinxi's Shuigong text here:

YM

You say you have oppinions - I say that when you give importance to oppinions you sell [...]

Nieh Ch'ueh asked Wang Ni, "Do you know what all things agree in calling right?"

"How would I know that?" said Wang Ni.

"Do you know that you don't know it?"

"How would I know that?"

"Then do things know nothing?"

"How would I know that? However, suppose I try saying something. What way do I have of knowing that if I say I know something I don't really not know it? Or what way do I have of knowing that if I say I don't know something I don't really in fact know it? Now let me ask you some questions. If a man sleeps in a damp place, his back aches and he ends up half paralyzed, but is this true of a loach? If he lives in a tree, he is terrified and shakes with fright, but is this true of a monkey? Of these three creatures, then, which one knows the proper place to live? Men eat the flesh of grass-fed and grain-fed animals, deer eat grass, centipedes find snakes tasty, and hawks and falcons relish mice. Of these four, which knows how food ought to taste? Monkeys pair with monkeys, deer go out with deer, and fish play around with fish. Men claim that Mao-ch'iang and Lady Li were beautiful, but if fish saw them they would dive to the bottom of the stream, if birds saw them they would fly away, and if deer saw them they would break into a run. Of these four, which knows how to fix the standard of beauty for the world? The way I see it, the rules of benevolence and righteousness and the paths of right and wrong are all hopelessly snarled and jumbled. How could I know anything about such discriminations?"

Nieh Ch'ueh said, "If you don't know what is profitable or harmful, then does the Perfect Man likewise know nothing of such things?"

Wang Ni replied, "The Perfect Man is godlike. Though the great swamps blaze, they cannot burn him; though the great rivers freeze, they cannot chill him; though swift lightning splits the hills and howling gales shake the sea, they cannot frighten him. A man like this rides the clouds and mist, straddles the sun and moon, and wanders beyond the four seas. Even life and death have no effect on him, much less the rules of profit and loss!"

Then - quite unconsciously, I'm sure, you presuppose that you're in a position to judge what's Daoist and what's not!!!

I have opinions which I may or may not voice out.

I form my own opinions on practice and study, if you think what I said is wrong I am eager to hear yours.

Thanks

YM

PS: and by the way, in case you wonder ... no, I don't levitate, set paper on fire, pass through wall or disappear at will - so hopefully the discussion is not about me

But is the no-dream state like meditation while lucid dreaming? (without making any comparison )

 

One more question, is there anything that replaces the dreaming? Any inner work, practice or things like that? Or is it just emptyness?

Not having personal experience I unfortunately have no way to answer your question in details, but *I think* it is not like meditation - just nothing (no dream).

Practice/inner work *should* come before that attainment.

I seem to recall that Chen Yinxi manual of "shuigong" had been translated in one early issue of the (now defunct) 'Taoist Resources' magazine.

Check out the Society for the Study of Chinese Religions website, I think some of the old issues might still be available.

YM

Thanks.

 

But I guess this no-dream state is not the same as not remembering any dreams. Is it more like the tibetian lucid deraming where you enter meditation while you are lucid in dreaming?

Yes, it is absence of dreams and different from not remembering dreams.

I have no idea about the tibetan thing, my only interest is Daoism, and as a general rule I tend to avoid making comparison with other traditions because this usually results in the impression (only) of *having understood*.

YM

But YMWong, could you explain more about the "no dream" phase? I have seen Dao Zhen mentioned it here too a while ago.

Do you mean that we actually dont have dreams, or that we are just as conscious in dreams as we are in waking life, meaning no difference between the two states?

It is actual no dreams.

In the Daoist view normal dreaming is generated by the hun/po spirits who roam around at night without control, so the first step is to put the spirits under control.

Daoists have created a number of practices to address this specific issue. Those most common are ascribed to Chen Yinxi (Tunan) and are known also outside of the daoist entourage under the name 'shuigong' (sleeping practice).

Sleeping (laying) is one of the main four standard practices of that are: laying, standing, sitting, moving.

Sleeping/dreaming in daoist history has been also often emplyed as a tool of learning, the famous "Golden Millet Dream" comes to mind together with Zhuangzi's butterfly:

"Once Chuang Chou dreamt he was a butterfly, a butterfly flitting and fluttering around, happy with himself and doing as he pleased. He didn't know he was Chuang Chou. Suddenly he woke up and there he was, solid and unmistakable Chuang Chou. But he didn't know if he was Chuang Chou who had dreamt he was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Chou. Between Chuang Chou and a butterfly there must be some distinction! This is called the Transformation of Things."

YM

I have on occasion talked to people that can lucid dream and they tell me how they would love to be able to achieve such a state at will. I of course point out that the blurring of this world with the dream world (astral/bardo/loka) can end in schizophrenia.

Patrick,

we do practice lucid dreams but they are only part of the process.

The goal is not to achieve lucid dreams.

The goal is to obtain lucid dreams of which we have full control AND YET be able to show no attachement and let it *play* as a standard dream.

Later, a 'no dream' phase will happen.

Agreed. There have been a wide range of practices that have somehow fallen under the common

name of 'taoist' practices, but some seem to have little or nothing at all to do with spiritual cultivation,

[...]

to start brushing up on your discerment skills a little bit.

Yes, I have seen posts where people actually seemed to be seriously dscussing such things.

Anyway, that's just my take on it all. Ultimately, everyone has to make up their own mind.

Finally somebody whose name ("neidan practictioner") and words go hand-in-hand

Thanks !

YM

Good luck guys, you need it

YM

EDIT: in case somebody wants to know what ACTUALLY means to be a Daoist, in contrast to reading the likes of the Wandering "Daoist" Trilogy, I'd suggest to start with books like:

THE TEACHINGS AND PRACTICES OF THE EARLY QUANZHEN TAOIST MASTERS

Stephen Eskildsen

Albany: State University of New York Press, 2004

Not sure I'm following you

If you have legs, we should learn how to walk? Because that's why they are there. Same goes for human extrasensory faculty.

Are you saying that just like legs are meant for walking hands are meant for burning newspapers ?

YM

Having read through this forum for a few days I feel it really is a mirror of the modern world: everyone is looking for POWER !

Be that money, *supernatural* abilities or the power to control others: these are all very un-daoist goals in one's life.

Daoism has always been a very *broad* path which, throughout history, has attracted people of various walks of life.

Similarly to small rivulets flowing into the big river of Dao, mainstream Daoism has always held an inclusive attitude while however working to *correct* what was considered un-orthodox within those schools.

So from the very beginning of "institutional" Daoism ~2000 years ago there has been an orthodox apophatic Way which, following the teaching of Lao/Zhuang, has been looking at emptiness as a goal. Expelling all spirits, including those in one's own body, and burn them to be able to become *One-with-Dao*.

The other Way, as for instance most Shenxiao-like orders, are kataphatic in nature and look at *filling* (with power) their body and/or utilizing their body as *medium*.

Many of these orders has been 'rectified' by the work of eminent Daoists like Bai Yuchan mainly with the Song, but a lot of their adherents did not accept the new *rules* and continued their practices. These kind of Daoism is still quite popular in China, especially in the central/southern areas, and many of those sought after by people on this board can be ascribed to these lines (at best).

From a (orthodox) daoist point of view, most of these practitioners/masters are considered low level thus not having access to high-grade Registers and the spirits/ghosts they command are in the lower spheres. Most of their practices, from meditation to ritual, is far away from the perfection of actual Daoist ritual.

It is true that "simila cum similibus agunt".

People looking for powers pay lots of money to study with masters who like to show their powers.

Sadly enough, this is all quite far away from the Daoist Path.

YM

Someone already posted this video before. Is there any way to download it?

And any English translation? My Chinese isn't very good, to say the least. :lol:

Simply watch the FULL video online, than open "Temporary Internet Files" folder in your PC and arrange the files in there by size or date: this video should be the first on top.

Copy it somewhere else and rename it to .flv file, then read it with any of the various free FLV Players.

There is not much to listen, only "move your hand here and there" blabla.

YM

Thank You YMWong! Have you met John Chang or Wang Liping?

No, only disciples of both

YM

What did you watch? I saw a video, not pictures and text.

And actually it's pretty similar. If not the same. I'm not sure, I'd have to check it out more carefully.

The is the actual full set Xingshenzhuang

http://www.56.com/u17/v_MTU3MjUzNDI.html

You can see more related videos here

http://so.56.com/index?key=%D6%C7%C4%DC%C6...or&sortby=3

YM

I've met this chap, as has Sean, our webmaster. His take on various controversies about him was pretty humble and quite amusing. Which is not to claim that he is genuine in any particular way, but it does give me pause to think that "the truth" might be a bit overstated also.

He was invited by the BTA a number of times, yes, I seem to recall.

I think he is still out there teaching with a lesser following, but I haven't heard about him in a while.

Most of these 'daoists' have all similar background and tell similar stories.

YM

These responsibilities are not given lightly, in 40 years of teaching Wang has two Tu Di, David is one.

Sean,

I have personally spoken with a couple of Wang's disciples.

Since none of them was italian I guess this information is incorrect.

I mean Michael Sasso, you might as well say Michale Winn. The guy has nothing.

WRT M Saso, I don't know M Winn, may I ask on what you base your opinion "the guy has nothing" ?

TIA

YM

However, after reading through a variety of the other threads, I think it's sad that the level of anger and dogmatism is so great on this forum. To me it seems very antithetical to argue and intellectualize the nature of the Dao.

Hello Styrofoamdog,

I also just got here a couple of days ago but I don't see *anger* but (more or less) animated discussions.

I deeply believe that everyone is entitled to his own opinions and that - usually - those don't change because "somebody on the web said different".

It is however, in my opinion, the actual scope of a tool like the web that everybody's opinion is told and heard.

When somebody then stumble upon such discussion he/she will have the tools and will see more than simply one side of the coins ... and might be able to make up his/her mind.

Needless to say, respect for the persons should always be present but opinions - and possibly facts as objective as possible - shall be presented for the sake of everybody's understanding.

A few years ago there was another "daoist case" which made a huge news: not sure how many remember Charles Belyea (aka Liu Ming).

Another of these guys who created a following based on their power to impress others and on many stories.

These stories are always about the same: Belyea had been "many years in Taiwan" and studied with "a daoist in the mountains" who had transmitted "Orthodox Daoism" to him as only successors bla bla bla.

"Liu Ming" even was passed down secret manuscripts and ordination manuals from as early as the Han dynasty that - however - were just too precious to be handled and shown and he was keeping them in a safe-box of a bank.

His case was a bit special because he climbed the ladder of fame fast since - by chance - Academia had organized a Conference of Daoist Studies in which, for the first time, pratictioners would gather with scholars in a mutual exchange.

To make a story short, at the Conference Prof. Schipper went to his knees and in a show worth of Broadway saying that Belyea could have been his Master.

For those who know Schipper that would mean a different thing than for most, but the case generated further promotion for the "Orthodox Daoist".

Later, exactly because of exchanges like those you are reading here, the truth came to light and Belyea (who has been in Taiwan very briefly and was selling a pout-pourri of things for "Orthodox Daoism") lost most of his following.

People like these have of course a place in this society and they actually provide a service for those that need it. It is therefore right IMHO that they ask to be paid, and if the amount is OK with their students just fine.

The only issue that I see is when they claim things that are not true and cannot back-up with hard evidence.

That's trickery.

YM

^ Here is the key, though:According to Sean...Jiang changed the water WITHOUT ever opening the bottles first...which were provided by Sean's group.

Well, I for one deeply trust that Sean honestly believes what he *saw* and that his report is - in that respect - absolutely accurate.

We all, however, have the tendency to *see* only what we *want* to see, hear what we want to hear ... guess you get my point. So, for the time being, I think that for all those of us who have not attended the seminar the pictures are a better mirror of what *might* have happened.

YM

It's interesting however how the article shows the trick of the "sweet water" making use of an actual hidden-camera video.

The master asks the student to buy a bottle and opens it, to show that it is normal water

He then puts the cap on the table behing him to pour a cup of water to the student

so that his assistant has the time to change the cup with another containing the sweet substance

then he take the (new) cup and close it back, to start "issuing qi" to it

so the water can become sweet: see how she handles the bottle HORIZONTALLY ?

It is intersting to note that these three persons - 'Jiang', Wang Liping and the Magus of Java - all have totally different backgrounds that are completely unrelated (Shaolin Qigong, Longmen" and "Mopai") but they are all utilized under the "lei shan dao" brand --- which of course is DV's brand and is not found anywhere else.

YM

so you can explain what that opinion you have about what constitutes a "concrete reference" that is different from mine actually is, and why is it exactly that mine doesn't meet your standards? Maybe I can do better next time then, once I know what your specs actually are?

Since you mentioned that the requirement "clean hands are a must" was something that had direct connection with the Daoists ("used by their creators") I was expecting a reference to a Scripture, an original source, an oral transmission from a reputable lineage or at least a similar reference translated by a known scholar.

Your quoting Blofeld and suggesting me to look out for some "chinese friends" (not mainlanders who are brainwashed) simply shows we have a different background and it's hard to communicate.

Thanks in any case

YM

John Blofeld, I Ching: The Book of Changes, 1965

With all due respect to you and Blofeld, I see we have different opinions about what makes a 'concrete reference' in Daoism and daoist studies.

No problem of course, to each their own

Best

YM

If I am going to use taoist tools, I am going to respect them enough to use them exactly the way they were used by their creators, or as close to "exactly" as my best effort can possibly take me.

Would you be so kind as to provide concrete reference to the relationship between

"clean hands are a must"

and

"exactly the way they were used by their creators"

as I am not aware of any, thou of course I may be wrong

YM