YMWong

Red Sun will push you right to the barrier and then to the scary place beyond. Not many are brave enough to push it, but those who do find a great treasure.

YM

YMWong - Thanks! So, most people have no problem scheduling international flights into HGH?

From the US you have to switch in Tokio, Seoul or Singapore from where you can fly direct to Hangzhou

YM

http://www.hzairport.com/index_en.jsp

Uh, did someone just delete my post on logistical questions here?

 

Oh nvm, it's on another similar thread...

Hi Vortex,

Jinhua is a two hours train ride south of Hangzhou. You can also take a bus or a cab, which will be cheap and fast

YM

How much?

USD 3,000 all inclusive of food and lodging

YM

My Goodness,So David is not even a Closed Door Disciple like He & Many of His students Claimed .

I would also like to add, as some might not be too familiar with the terminology, that "closed door disciple" (關門弟子) means the LAST disciple of a certain master after whom he does not accept anymore - he has therefore 'closed (his) door'. Every master has therefore ONLY ONE 'closed door' disciple and it is an important position in a line, which usually starts with the 'main disciple' (開門弟子, the disciple who 'opens the door') then a number of disciples (some masters have many of them) and last the 'closed door'.

Some people in the west seem to confuse a 'closed door' with an 'indoor (inside-the-door) disciple' (入門弟子).

This is a different classification and it refers to the close-ness to one's teacher who accepts disciples at various level (inside-the door, inside-the-room etc.).

In any case, a disciple is usually taught very differently than a simple 'student' (學生) and is supposed to receive full transmission. In the master/disciple relationship there are rights and duties on both sides, it is a profound kind of relationship that few westerners fully understand and are ready to commit to.

YM

If you read Victor's statement carefully, you might notice that WL referes to some Chinese Government permission. For those who knows how communist systems work, it should be obvious that before the permission is granted, WL will deny any confirmation on a deal.

 

I would say that in a sense the unauthrized announcement might be somewhat a set-up for WL and eventually harmful for him.

I don't think this is the correct reading.

After the "Qigong Hot" period of the 80ies and the consequent crack-down by the government whomever wanted to survive had to get close connection with the government.

In that respect, ANYTHING must be approved by the government in China especially when it involves the gathering of crowds. In this case the Religious Bureau is usually involved, at local level.

Consider that the Hainan meeting involved about 300 people and that for the coming (November) seminar they expect to have 600.

It is always working in the line of fire.

Only recently, last year, some CASS members have been firing at Wang Liping and this is not a good sign.

CASS (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences) is one of the official arms of the Goverment for the control of these activities and they have IMMENSE power. Just get a few members to agree that what you do is not "in the interests of the people of China" and you are done.

The seminar is simply not going to be held, as WLP confirmed, and was probably a 'hope' or a plan DV had in mind that he now has managed to blow out.

He is also not a disciple, let alone a 'closed door' one, as confirmed to me over the phone by two of his students last week.

After all, everyone has the 'master' he deserves ...

YM

As an interesting aside for all the Tao Bums. In the very short time since I posted the group photo from our 10-day retreat with Wang Liping, I and several other people in the photo have been deluged with emails, telephone calls, and PM's from Sean Denty. Asking about the cost of our retreat amongst other things. He was all over us like a bad suit, trying to protect his interests.

Just as a reference - for those interested - the forecoming seminar by Wang Liping in China will cost RMB 3000 (~USD 430) for ten days and that's inclusive of lessons, food and lodging.

By the way, last year retreat in Hainan was below USD 300.

YM

You get the same thing in Taoism. Some read the Tao Teh Ching and say their Taoist. Then others come along saying your not Taoist until you join a temple and still others say your not Taoist until your in an established lineage and that you cant even understand the inner meaning of the Tao Teh Ching until your initiated. Yeah, I have met those people....

Darin,

given that Daoism is chinese, although of course not exclusive to the chinese, you have to first of all define what is "a daoist" i.e. what is the correspondent term in chinese.

"Daoist" is a term invented in the west, therefore in that respect it can mean everything and/or nothing at the same time.

YM

I saw this on a Chinese LMP website about 6 months ago... did you put it together yourself?

No, it was passed to me by a friend in the Mainland.

There is a full DVD of the meeting and this is its intro

YM

Long time no see, my friend !

I visit here every now and then and I am glad to see you back, OCR.

YM

Hello all,

as there seems to be a lot of interest these days regarding Master Wang Liping I have just uploaded a brief intro to his last visit in Hainan on 2007.

For your viewing pleasure

YM

No matter how people argue or deny, aging is the most disgusting thing in life .

Chuang Tzu's wife died. When Hui Tzu went to convey his condolences, he found Chuang Tzu sitting with his legs sprawled out, pounding on a tub and singing. "You lived with her, she brought up your children and grew old," said Hui Tzu. "It should be enough simply not to weep at her death. But pounding on a tub and singing - this is going too far, isn't it?"

Chuang Tzu said, "You're wrong. When she first died, do you think I didn't grieve like anyone else? But I looked back to her beginning and the time before she was born. Not only the time before she was born, but the time before she had a body. Not only the time before she had a body, but the time before she had a spirit. In the midst of the jumble of wonder and mystery a change took place and she had a spirit. Another change and she had a body. Another change and she was born. Now there's been another change and she's dead. It's just like the progression of the four seasons, spring, summer, fall, winter.

"Now she's going to lie down peacefully in a vast room. If I were to follow after her bawling and sobbing, it would show that I don't understand anything about fate. So I stopped."

YM

Anyway what is the real muscle tendon change movements there seems to be hundreds of variations!

WYG

This is a well-performed one

YM

Besides Chuang Tze and Lao Tze , I think the following three pieces of writings ,accompanied by the spread of Taoism across the world and China's rise to become, possibly ,another Superpower , will be translated into English in the next 20 years if we are lucky enough to find some guys who are capable of doing this nearly impossible jobs:

 

- 悟真篇

- 伍柳仙踪

- 樂育堂語錄

 

 

Because all of them have been well known for more than one hundred years , or one thousand years among the Chinese Taoists, their value are unquestionable.

While the first text 悟真篇 is about one thousand years old, being from late Song, the following two texts have been written much later than that.

伍柳仙踪 is a compendium of Ming (~1600) and Qing texts published in the late Qing.

樂育堂語錄 is also a Qing dynasty work.

Moreover, the 悟真篇 has been translated various times in english and as early as the late 30ies by Davis and Chao.

YM

Anyone with a good scientific background here can confirm if this is *science* ?

http://www.turtlezen.com/russiandnadiscoveries.html

Thanks

YM

Your source is mistaken or mine -- or else they both used it and neither is mistaken -- what's yours? Mine is Alternative Medicine journal circa 2003, the quote was used in an article about the treatment of leukemia in China with a combo of Western chemo and TCM herbs (and medicinal toxins like arsenic, a compound of realgar, a TCM staple for "fighting poison with poison.") A Chinese Western/TCM doctor showed it to me, one Raymond Chang, MD, in NYC, and commented on the whole issue extensively.

Dear TM,

the sentence is a popular one, as I said, so I cannot exclude it was used to convey your meaning about Chinese Med vs. Western Med.

Any student of modern chinese history, however, would tell you that it was pronounced by Deng Xiaoping in 1962 at a meeting for the resourgence of agriculture.

Then ANY chinese person would explain that he used it again, and from THERE it became popular, in his last trip to Shenzhen and Zhuhai in 1992, where he went to see the results of his openings.

I can't remember the 1962 occurence as I wasn't born yet but I recall vividly his 1992 speech.

I am sure if you browse the web you'll find plenty of references.

YM

EDIT

"But then Deng, a thoroughgoing pragmatist, has never been much for labels. His most celebrated saying is a homely metaphor to the effect that it does not matter whether a cat is black or white so long as it catches mice. "

http://www.time.com/time/subscriber/person...ories/1985.html

Seadog, it might surprise you that you are on the same page with Mao Zedong, who decreed exactly this approach to medicine using exactly this reasoning. The famous Mao quote that made modern Chinese medicine a non-committed affair it is today goes, "We don't care if it's a black cat or a white cat as long as he catches mice."

This quote is from Deng Xiaoping and not Mao Zedong, and it was not related to Chinese Medicine AFAIK but about the early debate on "capitalism or socialism".

The "black cat, white cat" is a popular story in Sichuan and has been used by many public people in China but has become prominent because of Deng.

YM

They are the goals of online taoism.

 

The goals of taoism in reality are, first and foremost, different for different schools and sects of taoism, but even in the ones most heavily influenced by buddhism (like Celestial Teachers or Complete Reality) no one is after emptiness/nothingness as the goal. It is used as a tool --[...]

The goal in Daoism, if one really wants to list one, is *becoming One with Dao* (yu Dao he zhen).

The Daoist, in her ritual and meditation, reverse time and goes from the *ten thousand beings* (wan wu) back to the Beginning of things i.e. nothingness/emptiness.

Only when one's body is empty can Dao come to dwell inside.

YM

There's two very different sects of taoism both called Maoshan. Both are lineage based; neither one denies the shamanic roots of taoism (if there's anything ALL taoist schools and sects agree on, it's the origins of taoism and its founder -- Fu Xi the shaman-king). However, one of them is a spiritual/philosophical/religious/devotional practice, influential in its moral authority; while the other one is a magical/sorcery sect, quite secretive and also influential but concerned with pragmatic rather than moral issues. If someone asked me what Maoshan Magical is in its essence -- well no one did but here goes anyway -- I wouldn't think twice calling it "refined shamanism," "a shamanic tradition of a civilized (as opposed to tribal) society." It is shamanic to the core, it's just that it also incorporates methods derived from the sheer antiquity of Chinese civilization which was already a world of extensive written communication and scholarly pursuits at the time when it was ruled by shaman-kings, shapeshifter-emperors and dragon court-advisers.

The fact that Daoism takes roots in various proto-religions of antiquity has nothing to do with Maoshan being shamanic. It would be like saying that since my grandfather was tall that would make me tall by default.

Daoism re-organized and reformed much of the past knowledge and rejected some of the earlier practices during its history.

Maoshan is derived and stricly connected to mainstream Zhengyi and is totally unrelated to ANY shamanistic practice, which is in fact rejected by mainstream Daoism.

Can you refer to any published/public material for your claims ?

Thanks

YM

Earnest students should check for themselves or with those in China or the Far East, what Mao Shan shaman practices entail.

For your information, Maoshan Pai and Shamanism are not only unrelated but cannot possibly go along together.

A Maoshan daoist is an orthodox lineal master who would see the shaman as an un-orthodox "red-head" popular magician

YM

This is talking, finally a well stated claim.

 

Keep it like this and we might reach something.

Well, I can only speak for what I know and what I see.

Always, like everybody else.

So *there is not* stands of course for 'not that I know', it could not be otherwise.

There are many practices that orignated from those mountains. Not just the KunLun meditation.

Again, one must read these 'origins' in their actual perspective.

In chinese, for instance, we say *ten thousand* to mean "a lot".

There is basically NO actual transmission coming from Kunlun because the mountain is only a symbol: father/mother of all mountains, connected to Xiwangmu etc.

Those are all pretty back on time.

Moreover, daoist terminology is intended for initiates.

Kunlun, in this respect, is usually referred as the head, the *niwan* palace ... it is inside and not outside.

All IMHO, if that was not clear

YM

Yang Meijun has also referred to the origin of Da Yan Qigong as coming from the 'Kunlun School of Taoism', in a short video clip of her that I have seen, that was made when she was ninety.

Whether she got that information from her grandfather or not, I'm not sure, but maybe

she wrote further on this somewhere, or maybe detailed interviews have been done with her.

This is what she says and her words have the same authority of Max or anybody else.

Again until she can come up with hard evidence (i.e. something older than her saying), in my opinion of course, the Kunlun Pai name comes from Jin Yong's martial novel - which came well before Max or YMJ.

http://wuxiapedia.com/novels/jin_yong/heav...n_slaying_sabre

By the way, just like with Taiwan Liu's made up (name) Kunlun, I don't think what the late YMJ did had any logical similarity with Max's, is it not ?

I came across another website for 'Kunlun Shan Qigong' which also claims to originate from

the Kunlun mountains, and which is apparently similar to Da Yan Qigong, though apparently from a

different source. The story goes that this style of Qigong originated from a monk named Dao An

(some say Buddhist, some say Taoist) from the Kunlun mountains in the Jin Dynasty. Not sure

where this information originates from though. Maybe there is information on this monk named

Dao An written of somewhere, or maybe this information was just passed on verbally...

Everything is always possible, of course, but certain things are more possible than others I guess

YM