YMWong

But I read somewhere that historians traced the shamanistic orgin back over Sibiria to China and therefore say Shamanism originates from Taoism. What do you thing of that?

I don't really understand the question, sorry.

Who are the historian we are talking about, reference ?

TIA

YM

Oh, OK, I have Michael Saso's books, I'll try to look it up there, since we may finally have found an authority acceptable for both of us.

Here is what M. Saso has to say on the subject:

" [...] Another concept that must be understood before entering into the subject of healing is the definition of a Taoist. The term Taoist, daoshi, pronounced "daoshr" in Chinese, means a man or woman who has been ordained or set aside and specially trained to perform a specific role in society. Anyone can learn about Taoist healing, but only those who have been trained and initiated in the Taoist tradition are truly "Taoists".

In order to be a recognized Taoist, one must fulfill three requirements: one must find and be accepted and trained by a licensed Taoism master (man and woman are considered equal in the Taoist tradition); one must learn to meditate on the writings of Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu, and promise to obey the rules and learn to play the music, sing the songs, and dance the steps of Taoist ritual; one must receive a Taoist "register" (lu) or list of spirits to be envisioned, talisman to summon them, and mantra to command them, that is, empty them from the heart and mind before meditating on the Tao. [...]

[...] Having defined what a Taoist is from within the Taoist tradition, we must now try to identify what is and what is not Taoist from the many practices found throughout China, Taiwan, Hong Kong and elsewhere in Asia. There are certain kinds of healing rites that are not really Taoist, though their pratictioners may claim to be. [...]

[...] A momentous difference lies in the fact that Blackhat Taoists actually "empty out" all the spirits from the temple and their own body, while Redhead summons the spirits into the temple for a feast. [...]

[...] In addition to the fact that the Readhat do not empty themselves of spirits during prayer but rather fill the mind and the temple with benign spirits' presence, there is another important difference: the people do not call Redhat priests Taoists or Daoshi but rather fashi or sigong, that is, ritual masters rather than Taoist masters.

This notion of filling rather than emptying indicates that the Redhat practices may once have derived from the medium or shaman traditions, not the Taoists. The medium is a trance expert who when possessed by a spirit can talk in tongues and sometimes heal. A shaman is a ritual expert who when in a trance can travel to another spiritual realm to look into the wellbeing of the deceased, heal the living, and bring the prayers of the villagers to the heavenly spirits. Both the medium and the shaman are unconscious of their acts when in trance. The Redhat priests act as interpreters for the medium and sometimes become medium themselves. [...]

[...] It is interesting to note that medium, shaman, and priests all practice healing. The medium, the shaman, and the popular fashi Redhat heal by visualization, while the Taoist daoshi heals by kenosis, by emptying the mind and heart of all spirits and their images. [...]

[...] From the above discussion it can be seem that at least two kinds of healers, and therefore two different philosophies of well-being (among many others), can be found in Asia. The first kind, which we are describing here, can be called the apophatic or kenotic tradition, which in simple language means emptying the mind of concept and image. The second is the kataphatic or "imaging" tradition, which heals by filling the mind with thoughts of good spirits and well-being.

The kataphatic tradition, using medium possession or shaman trance to heal, can be very dramatic and even traumatic. [...]"

Best

YM

Thanks, Cat, that was priceless!

 

YM, why don't you tell Ken Cohen that because he thinks exactly the way I do and you don't, he's not real, not educated, not a taoist, and belongs in that dump of discarded wannabes with Eva Wong and the rest of us? Or better yet, why don't you answer my question instead of telling me what to do? I'll try again: what do you do with your taoism?

Dear TM,

I don't know Cohen and I am not used to comment on another comment reported by somebody else who told him that .... so unless a specific quotation from a written source is given there is not much to say.

Who ordained Cohen in what lineage, by the way ? I am not questioning what you say, don't worry, only asking as I don't know

With my practice I do what I like: I enjoy it

YM

YM, please quit telling me that I don't have a clue. It simply isn't the case. I live my taoism. What do you do with yours? Poke people in the eye with your only mantra, "I know and you don't, I'm special and you aren't, I am the chosen one and you're the discarded one, I'm THE taoist and you're chopped liver," etc., this part I've seen... I'd be curious to find out if there's anything else it's good for, your kind of taoism as practiced by you. What else do you do with it?..

TM,

I definitely know nothing but I humbly suggest you do more reading of chinese and Daoist history.

You'll see that what you think is my *plan to take over the world* is simply what Daoism has been doing, from its beginning, throughout chinese history.

What is not Daoist is certainly as good as what IS daoist but it is simply SOMETHING ELSE.

YM

Is this disgareement fundamentally informed by certain authorities wanting to disassociate Taoism from anything to do with Shamanism, quite simply.. perhaps because it is considered 'superstitious' and 'unproductive'?

LOL

Daoism has been 'rejecting' shamanism since its inception 2,000 years ago.

Many sects has been 'corrected' during the last few hundred years and entered the orthodox path, many remained outside and continued their shamanic tradition which was NEVER part of Daoism.

YM

Well, YM and I exchanged some PMs and it became clear that we can be mutually respectful as individuals but we aren't going to agree on anything, including what is and what isn't a "finding." Maoshan Magical doesn't exist to him as a distinct, separate, and legitimate taoist sect... and none of my findings are going to change it.

To disagree with respect is a good thing as that can lead to learning.

Magic exists everywhere in every time. The issue I raised is that not everything is "Daoist".

Daoism is extremely inclusive and yet a lot of things do not belong to it.

Shamans and mediums also exist everywhere, but none are "daoist" in nature simply because their goal of practice differ extremely from the Daoist Path.

Let me give you couple of examples, of the various I could give, regarding what has been explained of KL.

Orthodox Daoists, like those from the Maoshan Sect, are prohibited to wear anything animal-made during ritual and meditation. So much so that also leather belts and shoes are off-limit in the practice area.

Shamans and mediums instead make vaste use of leather and fur during their practice, worldwide not only in China, similarly to how KL suggests (according to what we read here) to seat on animal fur.

During many Daoist practices there might be some light tremors/vibrations generated in the body or some spontaneous movements. Daoists are required to lightly control those movements and get still.

Lot to say, but not necessary for those who know what daoism is all about

YM

No, that's not what I meant. I meant research into her biography that cites her father as an ordained taoist who initiated her. I'm rusty though, it's been a while and I don't have orderly bookmarks, alas. But it's something I remember finding far more plausible than the Mr. Moe controversy.

I don't know about her father being a "daoist". I only recall her saying that she started reading Yi Jing and similar material as a kid by family influence, or something like that.

I don't have any of her works with me here so I cannot comment further.

I have read actual taoist writings, pretty much everything available in translation in the two languages I'm fluent in, and had access to an insider source too, which is why I trust what Ms. Wong has to say. It's congruent with my understanding, it has inner grasp of the essential, of the underlying fundamentals of taoism, something that is sorely missing from not some but all academic works I have read (and I used to read those too, moons ago, notably the whale of studies into Sinology and taoism, Joseph Needham) -- which is why I quit reading them. Not because I choose to be undereducated on the subject. But because I choose not to be mis- and dis-educated, or to put it bluntly, brainwashed. And scholarly works as accepted by modern academia are nothing but.

Daoist (Academic) Studies have walked a long way since the early days and there are a number of scholars who are also ordained daoist in their own right. At the time, basically, only M. Saso and K. Schipper had an inside view but now there are many other cases, and Academia is now much closer to the source with field studies while in the early days it was mostly textual analysys.

YM

How about the line of "research" into her biography that traces her lineage through her father rather than Mr. Moe? Detractors to the rescue! But that doesn't really matter... there will always be scores of Australians willing to teach the Innuits how to keep warm on the North Pole, and scores of Norwegians teaching equatorial Africans how to stay cool.

I see where you are coming from Taomeow, but having been raised in a 'traditional' (chinese) family do not qualify anybody to speak as an insider of Daoism. I live in Hong Kong were Miss Wong was born and raised and I can confirm that being so.

Again, this doesn't discredit the good writings she has produced but everything should be taken in its own perspective.

A real scholar work as a scholarly resource and an actual Daoist writing as an insider source.

Miss Wong's writings are nice, entertaining and informative but do not belong to any of the two categories.

YM

You need to show a little more respect for your fellow Taoists. You assume that nobody here has a clue what they are talking about and that only reveals that same quality in yourself.

 

Arrogance.

I was not assuming anything, I was simply reading your posts and commenting.

To paraphrase your reply to me, after you spoke about people you don't even know if they exist:

I was just illustrating a point about your family.

so, in fact, I was just "illustrating a point about your teacher". Whom of course I have never seen but my comments were on the information you passed on this same board.

Anything you want to add ?

YM

What's the point of quoting someone who is a lineage taoist, i.e. "not a scholar" to you, if you want to rely on the scholar who is not a taoist?.. I think I mentioned more than once on prior occasions that I don't read books by scholars, I only read books by practicing taoists. I don't know how Robinet slipped into my references, I was just in a hurry or I would have remembered who she is and ignored her. OK, now I remember. A scholar. Not a taoist.

Taomeow,

I was quoting scholarly references simply because I was replying your first comment:

I refer you to Isabelle Robinet's and Eva Wong's scholarly accounts for confirmation of its real-life existence.

if you want to go with pratictioners views I am totally open to that too.

Anyway, here's the quote you won't accept because it's coming from a lineage taoist and a member of the sect rather than a "scholar" "researching" from the outside looking in:

 

[...]

 

And trust me, Eva Wong didn't make up Mao-shan Magical taoism and Mao-shan sorcerers, despite the fact that the characters based on this image were used in some movies or other you saw. I've seen many movies depicting true love, but it doesn't mean that everyone who's ever encountered true love has been merely influenced by movies.

Eva Wong, I am told by people who have met her, is a gentle and good woman so I have great respect for her.

Her works are a nice reading and a good introduction to Daoism. They are not, however, scholarly made simply because Miss Wong is not a scholar in the field of Chinese Studies and Daoism.

With regard to her connection to practical Daoism and her being "from a lineage taoist" I am not sure how much you know but she started learning Daoism in the west with the late Master Moy.

Master Moy's connection to actual Daoism has been discussed quite a bit since the early 80ies and only a loose connection to an organization in HK was found. Basically, neither Master Moy and of course Miss Wong were ordained daoist.

The outcome of this much talk partially broke apart Master Moy's organization after his death, and Miss Wong took a distance from Master Moy and his group afterwards. You can check her biography in her early writings and the recent one for details, and she has acknowledged this fact in person various times.

YM

I'm no "you guys" to you mister. Maoshan Magical is not the same as Maoshan Mystical, according to Eva Wong, is she one of the funny guys in your book too? "Tens of thousands of temples" are mentioned by Yang Li, professor at the Graduate Department of the TCM Institute in China and one of the foremost authorities on the history of magical arts -- however neither she nor me ever asserted that they all existed simultaneously -- we're talking a long period of history, ever heard of things sequential in time? a small mountain, ROFL indeed, a long history to a small mountain. You guys...

Would you mind quoting Eva Wong (who, with all respect, is not a scholar by the way) and Yang Li as I did in my post ?

"The mountain received its name due to its association with the three Mao brothers (Mao Ying, Mao Zong and Mao Gu) who alighted on its three peaks during the Han dynasty, practiced there, ascended from its peaks as trascendents, and were later venerated within the "Shangqing" tradition. Indeed the mountain has almost become synonymous with the Shangqing school, which originated there between the fourth and the fifth centuries."

The Encyclopedia of Taoism

Fabrizio Pregadio

In the period of its splendour Maoshan had "three palaces, five temples and seventy abbeys" - as recorded in the Yuan dynasty edition of "Maoshan Chronicles". Today Maoshan has two palaces and one temple, all mostly reconstructed in the last few years, with a total of 99 residents (38 Daoists, 16 Nuns and 45 workers).

Best

YM

YM,

 

thanks for your response, it clarifies a lot for me re where your objections are coming from. Shanggzing Pai founded by Wei Huacun is a different Maoshan! -- a mystical orthodox school Max has never made a peep about. And what you refer to as the "mostly fictional" school of magical Maoshan is nothing but -- wasn't it founded by Mao Xing and his brothers?.. Why are you saying it's fictional? -- I refer you to Isabelle Robinet's and Eva Wong's scholarly accounts for confirmation of its real-life existence. (I'm sure there's scores more but I don't have any more references handy at the moment.)

IT IS the same school, Taomeow, in that the Mao brothers are the reputed (legendary ?) ancestors of the Maoshan tradition that was then transmitted to Yang Xi by Madame Wei Huacun.

I quote Isabelle Robinet (a personal friend for many years) here:

"Between 367 and 370, a certain Yang Hsi was visited in the middle of the night by a group fo immortals, among whom was Lady Wei Hua Tsun who had died about 30 years previously. She was the one who revealed most of the texts of Great Purity to Yang Hsi. Lady Wei herself was said to have received these texts during a revelation involving the apparition of her master, Wang Po. According to the great Taoist theorist Tao Hung-ching (456-536), the appearance of the Mao-shan texts dates to this period.

The tradition itself, however, claims that its origins go back to the Mao brothers who, in the first century BCE, retreated to the mountain that subsequently was named after them"

Taoist Meditation

Isabelle Robinet, Julian F. Pas, Norman J. Girardot

The Maoshan tradition has been called Shangqing Pai as of the times of Yang Xi.

The fictional "Maoshan" I refer to is the one depicted in many novels and movies, but it's hard for somebody who was born and raised overseas to know what I am talking about I guess.

I mentioned female hermits not because I was assuming or implying "gender discrimination" but because some of the practices of Maoshan were only transmitted to women for the longest time, and Max mentioned his female teachers. School of the Immortal Way -- I am translating from Russian, not from Chinese, I don't know what the name really is in Chinese OR English, but that's what a real-life female hermit once mentioned to me, in a context unrelated to Max, years ago. I know very little about her lineage, and I was wondering if you may have heard something from a reputable source and could help me figure out the arcane family ties of the Buryat-shamanic/Tibetan buddhist/Maoshan amalgam in existence where I come from.

As I explained, without an actual chinese name the "School of Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is simply another way of saying "Daoism".

Well, not really. It was tongue-in-cheek... I know you can't know. But YM, don't you know how HUGE Maoshan used to be? -- with tens of thousands of temples, with ten schools of the Magical Sect alone?.. Don't you think it is at least plausible that you might not know EVERYTHING about it?..

Rotfl !

Have you ever been to Maoshan, Taomeow ?

Maoshan is a small mountain, a hill actually, possibly one of the smallest "daoist mountain" in China.

With its peak reaching 372 meters above see level could barely fit a few dozen temples, even in the past, let alone your "tens of thousands of temples".

You guys are a funny bunch

YM

YM,

 

care to share what you know about the female hermits of the Maoshan tradition belonging to the School of the Immortal Way?

Taomeow,

traditional Daoism makes no gender difference in terms of giving everybody the possibility to practice and master the Daoist Arts. In chinese history only the Celestial Masters were guided, generation by generation, by the first male descendants but the school itself was open to females as well.

The Maoshan tradition was in fact basically founded by a lady, Wei Huacun, so to this day many lineal descendants are ladies pratictioners.

I am not sure about the "School of the Immortal Way" you refer to: what's the chinese name ?

The "Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is actually simply another way of generally calling Daoism.

Maoshan (Shangqing Pai) is basically a derivative of Zhengyi (Orthodox One) tradition and during its history it has always been very much connected with both Zhengyi and the Lingbao Schools, all very orthodox in nature.

The impression of the common people about Maoshan as a place of only sorcerers and magic, exorcists and the likes has been very much created by the novels first and then by movies.

Most of those based on spirits and ghosts always depict a "Maoshan" wizard fighting with the evil ghosts.

But that, as I said, is mostly fictional.

Practices as explained by the KL group go in China under the name of "Red Head" or "unorthodox tradition".

Masters belonging to these traditions have existed for a very long time and are the direct derivative of the early shamans and mediums in China.

They are not addressed as "Daoshi" (Daoist) but they are "Fashi" or "Shigong".

While both categories overlap a little as they both do, thou in a different way, healing and services for the leaving only (orthodox) Daoists also perform for the death and do the classical rites of renewal.

The trasmission in the two groups is also very different.

While Daoists are ordained, receive a register, list of prohibitions and take vows the Red Head are taught in a system of 'brotherhood' instead of a father/son relationship.

The main difference, however, lies in the fact that "Red Head" continues the tradition of the shamans of the old times in which they practice the become a "medium" for higher energy/beings/spirits to go through them.

Daoists, on the other side, work toward the attainment of emptyness because in the Daoist Tradition the way to reach "Unity with Dao" (the goal of practice) requires that every image, every spirit, everything is *burned* and distroyed so that the pratictioner is totally empty and the Dao can then dwell inside her.

Best

YM

OK. We have the "head" group all assembled in one place.

 

[...]

 

If you don't like what you hear from me, go find a good Maoshan teacher.

Chris,

since your reply is addressed to "the group" I hope you don't mind me jumping in again.

The "good Maoshan teacher" you ask people to look for, I am afraid, would blow out all of your dreams.

Instead of asking others to do so, why don't you find one yourself ?

And I mean a REAL Maoshan teacher from a real lineage not a 'self-made' one with a six dollars hat bought on the web.

And before that, how can you speak for the Maoshan tradition ?

To become an apprentice, let alone a master, of any of the Three Mountains Alliance (two of which Max claim to belong to <sic> ) one has to receive the Registers, make the vows and take the Prohibitions (most of which Max would be breaking by the way he acts) so anyone with a minumum knowledge of Daoism can easily understand the situation.

Such a shame

YM

EDIT: By the way, I am glad for those that are happy with Max teachings. All is good in that respect. The "converted" by Derren Brown are even more happy to have found their way to God.

I am just sick and tired of hearing you guys speaking "on behalf" of a tradition you clearly have no clue about.

As they say, "Taoists were the first form of quantum physicists. They could apply it, but couldn't explain it. Today's quantum physicists can explain it, but can't apply it."

May I ask who are "they" (saying) in your quote ?

Thanks

YM

Lama Thunderbolt has got a pretty cool hat - I want one!

You can buy one over the web for less then 6 USD

http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/item_de...d9c056cf5.jhtml

Take care

YM

Now we are getting closer to the truth.

Yours or mine ?

YM

YM,

I know we don't know each other but I find your logic amazing.

 

In fact, following your logic I would like to give you my opinion of your family. Now, bear in mind that I don't know any members of your family personally, but I have heard some things (I think).

 

I may insult some of them with what I have to say, but that is OK because I am certainly entitled to my outside opinion. Shall we start with your mother?

 

You see, my opinion and your opinion are equally valid,...but only in retard land.

Chris,

the day you see a video of my mom in a brothel and read articles about her night job I'd be delighted to hear what you have to say.

Before that, and before you have the faintest idea if she is still alive or not, I am afraid yours would not be an "outside opinion" but a work of fantasy.

Which you can keep and hold on to, of course

YM

I disagree.

 

I've never heard the argument FOR an uninformed perspective before. Interesting!

I see where you are coming from but please let me explain.

I am not for an "uninformed" opinion of course.

In this case Chris gives his *inside* opinion and Patrick his *outside* opinion, both informed by their vision of the matter.

Chris in fact has tried the practice so his "information" comes from inside, so to speak.

Patrick has seen a video and has read various comments. He has therefore an outside information.

So they are both informed, thou in a different way.

Inside information is usually better, with this I agree, but it can be tricky.

That's why as I said they have both pros and cons.

Let me ask you.

Who do you think is in a better position to understand what's going on here: those sitting and experiencing the matter or us watching the video ?

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I&...feature=related

Best

YM

If TWO or THREE out of thousands choose to spin that [...]

Hello Mantra,

hopefully you don't believe it is just two or three ... (so you know where I stand) ... simply that most of those that feel there is not much in there (KL/Max) do not necessarily feel compelled to try and break the dreams of the believers.

You see, there is not much difference between you and Patrick in that you have tried Max, found it excellent (with your experience and to your standard), and are sincerely trying to spread the news "this is the best that can happen to You: please try !".

Patrick is doing the same thing.

He feels that Max is a con artist (with his experience and to his standard) and is sincerely trying to warn people not to fall on "his tricks".

No difference.

The fact that you have invested time and done the practice doesn't put you in a better perspective.

As a matter of fact, from another point of view, that's the worst perspective.

Both perspective are good, actually, none is better than the other as both have pro's and con's.

Peace

YM

With regard to 'protection' from unwanted visitors..... if we are in the right alignment, they cannot adhere to us and are not even going to attempt to get anywhere near us.

 

If your heart is soft and loving, you are safe.

Hello Cat,

I think you speak without direct experience as what you say is quite far from the way we experience it.

Some of those "creatures" are huge like a mountain and powerful, they can crush you in a second.

Those of pure yin can hardly effect *our space* but many are yang in nature and we are like little ants to some of them. They don't necessarily care much about us but, just like we slaps away mosquitoes that disturb us, they can do quite a bit of damage.

And that's regardless of the disposition of your heart !

YM

Good posts !

Yes, I have experienced discussing with fellow pratictioners and confirmed the exact same *vision*.

I am not sure if somebody with a different backgrounf would see things different but I guess that's possible of course. There are deities shared by Daoism and Tantrism that are depicted quite different in the two agiographies. I would say, however, that both share similar "main tracts" and that those would be retained in any case.

It is true that reality, and what's beyond it, is a projection of our minds.

There are however some basic tracts that go beyond what we see as 'physical appearence' that are the very basic components of things - their basic substance. Those, I think, remain the same.

YM

Another example is when I personally perceive void, I see black. Some people see dark purple.

Some Daoist schools koujue (oral secret transmission) explain that "the color of black is deep purple".

Nice that you mention so and good for you, you must be quite well developed in your path.

YM

This is very interesting YMWong!

Can you say a little bit more about how taoists view these beings and the three levels?

How about unicorns, centaurs, elfs, devas and creatures like that, are they purely western consepts or are they mentioned in taoism as well?

Most people don't mention this *other world* which simply mean few people have practiced enough and reached the ability to see it. That's why I replied to the original post on this thread, happy that there are still some decent practictioners out there.

Now most people seem to be only attracted by superpowers and not by the ability to see the world as it is ...

Chinese (and Daoist) history dwelve into these "being" with great details which shows how people were much more advanced in the past. Ko Hung, one of the greatest alchemist of Daoist history, has full chapters about *entering the mountains* to gather Medicines for the Pill and gives vivid descriptions of these beings and how to see them, how to protect ourselves from them et. etc.

His main work which takes his sobriquet Baopuzi (Master who Embraces Semplicity) has been translated in english in full and his parts various times so if you are interested you can get a copy.

Another reference who comes to mind is the Shanhai Jing (Classic of Mountains and Seas) who is considered a classic on mythology by modern scholars who do not understand that those are not fantasies but reality.

That has been also translated in english various times.

I don't know enough about western *mythology* to make learned comparison but I guess many phenomenon might be related.

YM

I felt she would fit well the Bodhisattva category of Buddhism as she loves healing and helping those in need, free of charge of course.

Great !

It's a blessing that people like that are still around and you have been lucky to have met her

I told her about the her experiences with beings of other astral realms. I asked her about dragons. Honestly I have no idea about why I mentioned this mythological creature. She simply told me:

 

"They are magnificent creatures, simply amazing and live in a astral realm that is next to ours."

 

I told her "I know they were for real especially when ancient humans depicted them so often in numerous media. I guess mystics in the past were able to see them in their meditations or in a state of trance."

After meditating with some success for a few years *eyes* becomes different and the world start to look VERY different, not only during practice/meditation but all the times.

There are A LOT of *creatures* like the dragons and all are 'visible' for those with the right eyes.

They are traditionally divided in various categories as they *live* at "different levels": there are shen, ling and gui. Dragons belong to the 'ling' species.

I am of the opinion, however, that western dragons do not belong to that same category but they are simply extinct animals.

YM