YMWong

Very nice, Darin !

You are seeking to attack a certain group, and certain individual(s) who have been prevalent on this forum.

 

In the words of Buddy - stop being passive aggressive. Just state your truth in your voice.

 

You think someone is a fraud, step up and say so. This overly intellectuallized discussion which leaves out the idea of actual practice which leads to actual EXPERIENCE is unnecessary and in my view self indulgent.

Craig,

experience is certainly of prominent importance but it is also one of the most tricky things.

The 'actual experience' you speak of is first of all in the mind, but the mind is a very convoluted matter at times.

You take ten people *from the street* and have them do Kunlun or what-have-you WITHOUT telling them ANYTHING, without letting them know what to expect, without any information - that is.

Just explain the practice to them and let them do: then watch their "actual experience".

You might be surprised.

Needless to say and by the same token, my "actual experiences" are very much mind-connected so they might be *unreal*. But I claim no mastery, I don't own and try to sell any truth and just do what I like.

I was just expressing my views on mostly some historical and cultural claims.

I guess my reply won't satisfy your request in full, for which I apologize.

YM

There are plenty of people who misrepresent themselves to make money. They'll say they are whatever sells. But this too is hardly a new phenomenon. In almost every city I've traveled through in China in most any park you can find a 'master' in funny clothes any morning of the week. And they all boast lineages going back to Zhang Sanfeng, Laozi, or even Huangdi. And most would say they're Daoist, Buddhist, Tibetan, pretty much what ever it took to crack open a western wallet. Lets not confuse the charlatans with the hobby Daoists, they are two entirely different breeds.

Misrepresentation is of course not a western-only phenomenon, of course.

But as I haven't seen their students over on this board advertising I see no point in discussing them. If me and you were at the park watching them then it might be great to comment.

Could You possibly give Us a little more Detail about the Letter ? If You have some infomation that may stop others getting hurt You'll be doing the Righteous thing Brother.

Hello RW,

at times I wonder what 'else' can be said to wake up students who believe in people who claim to be able to fly, pass through walls, disappear at will in Starbucks, coming from a lineage of 7000 generations of masters .... is there really ANYTHING MORE that needs to be told ?

This said, it is important to hear all different views but I must tell you by experience that all people - including us of course - can hardly change our minds because of external influence.

Changes come from within.

It takes MANY external blows to change, and when this happen it's usually because the internal seed of change was already there.

YM

Dear SYD,

the terms Daojia (Dao School) and Daojiao (Dao Tradition/Religion) have been used interchangeably throughout chinese history and only more recently it has been claimed, by those outside the tradition, that the two things are different i.e. Daojia a pure, philosophical and/or mystical tradition while Daojiao a later corrupted religious belief.

This said, however, it is true that all along chinese history there has been a lot of people who were attracted by one or more *components* of the Daoist Tradition. There is plenty of evidence of Confucians, Literate and common people who were fervent students/pratictioners of Fengshui, Yijing reading, meditation or other daoistic activities. Some of them simply learned *by themselves* through reading of classical literature, exploration of human mind etc. while others practiced specific skills under actual Daoists (Daoshi).

These people are, in my opinion, as close as it comes to modern 'western daoists'

Needless to say, none of them claimed to be a 'daoist' (daoshi), none used to hold seminars wearing funny hats and costumes or boasted holding lineages of 7000 generations.

They simply did as they pleased, cultivated their hobbies and interests some to an actual high level.

After all in chinese society, in the past as today, there are thousands of people who *believe in Dao* (xin Dao) and regularly go to the temples, pray the Daoist gods and follow *some* daoist rules. Most of them have no idea about Daoism: you could change the temple sculpture of Laozi with a Buddha and they wouldn't notice the difference. If you ask them why they go to a specific temple they'll reply that's because that specific deity is 'ling' and can bring blessing.

Change is in the nature of everything, as you righly say, and Daoism do not escape from this Rule.

As a matter of facts Daoism has been changing dramatically during the last 2000 years.

But changes can and do come from within the tradition and cannot possibly come from the outside.

If I am a chef and I learn from somebody who knows it how to make a pizza with time my *recipe* might naturally change or, at a certain time, I can actually and consciously improve it.

But for somebody who has never been in a kitchen and was not taught about pizza - how can he change it ?

He is not changing the pizza recipe, he is making up something with his preconceived notions of what a pizza should be and selling it as a pizza.

What's more in many cases he is selling it as an original recipe learned from an italian chef, maybe claiming of having lived in Naples for 3 generations, speaking with a fake southern italian accent ....

I am sure that ANYBODY can be a good chef, even a gifted one and maybe without training.

Anybody can make great dishes and find lots of people that would enjoy them ... but that's a different story.

And now all this pizza talk is getting me hungry ...

YM

Broadly speaking, the author is correct in his assertion that understanding of the culture and context is very important when doing an academic study. Clearly the author is emphasising the academic side of things because he is an academic.

 

The author concludes that in order to study Taoism correctly, one must be able to read the 'classic' writings in the original vernacular, (not accessible to the Hoi Polloi), and also study directly with Taoist priests in China.

 

Personally, I would agree with the need to study under a teacher of a 'living' tradition. To read all of the classics in the original vernacular? No. To be able to understand and appreciate the teachings of your own tradition, yes. If you have the time, inclination and aptitude then by all means go for it. Most people find the common peoples language with simplified characters hard enough.

Very good comments to which I fully agree.

Daoism, as one can see in Saso's article posted, is fundamentally an Oral Tradition.

So, yes, you don't need to "read" the classics but you MUST have somebody explaining them (their core, that is) to you. So an illiterate can learn and become a Daoist, even in chinese sense of the term, and he will be taught to memorize some texts - exactly like anybody else.

In Daoism there are 'Three Treasures' and these are: Dao 道、Jing (scriptures) 經、Master 師.

The Scriptures simply stands for the Tradition as passed down from previous generations.

YM

This distinction between 'western daoism' and 'chinese daoism' is a good one, I think. Just so long as we all understand that, while each of us may prefer one over the other, just because a version of daoism is western doesn't automatically make it inferior or inauthentic. Spiritual traditions have to start somewhere. Of course, it may be the case (I think it is the case) that a lot of western daoism is inauthentic and spiritually vacuous... but not just because it's western. If I had to guess, I'd say it's because most new spiritual traditions suck. Only the ones with something to offer last, but history hasn't yet had a chance to sort the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

Yes, I fully agree with your point of view.

And, yes, of course there is no 'superior' or 'inferior' tradition. They are all good if they do good to somebody, if to a few, but one must understand they are not necessarily the same thing.

I am also not arguing about 'western daoism' to be *a kind of daoism* and that's why I call it so i.e. 'western daoism'.

I however have an issue about people doing/selling 'western daoism' but than feeling the - usually commercial - need to link it to Maoshan, to Wudang or any other 'sounding' chinese term. There are in fact many nice groups around that claim no direct affiliation to any chinese daoist center but transmit some good and sound traditions.

It's all good, as long as there is honesty

YM

Found this over the web but I can't find the original link so I'll add the pdf file to this board.

Anybody wants to comment from personal experience ?

YM

But it occurs to me that another complained aired on this board is that the word "taoism" is a relatively recent invention... it is in fact a word seemingly made up to placate the western need to categorize. This makes the whole article somewhat at odds with itself, in the sense that it is a defense of the proper use of the word 'taoism' against cultural fusion. But that cultural fusion is exactly what produced the word in the first place! If one was feeling particularly cheeky, a westerner could argue that 'taoism' is actually our word to define as we please. (I'm not feeling that cheeky, that would be to miss the point. I'm just saying.)

Good points raised. But I think that Russel's, as well as a number of other scholars who agree with him, is actually trying to convey the idea that Taoism/Daoism is not, or should not be, "a new word" but in fact the english translation of a specific - thou very wide - tradition that has been around in China for a couple of thousand of years and with roots even further back.

That's the actual point of his work, as I see it, in that *westerners* (sorry for the generalization here) tend in fact to see Taoism/Daoism as a new term and in that respect would want to fit their preconceived notions into it.

In that respect some, including myself, have been speaking of a "western daoism" vs. a "chinese daoism" - where 'chinese daoism' does not mean 'daoism for chinese only' but instead 'daoism as it is understood in china'.

YM

You mean you're going to give me a massage?

 

If not, why are you telling me to relax? I am pretty chill as it is, but if what you mean is you can work on my right ankle long distance, by projecting your healing qi -- I did some minor but annoying damage to it yesterday -- I would appreciate it.

Who is prone to throwing jabs should be able to take jabs, TM.

Your opinionated understanding of Russel's article, in reply to a request of "copy and paste of important points", do not only give Russel a bad service but all other readers as well.

The fact that you are passing those understandings as "the core of his message" is even worst, in my opinion.

But in your mind you "are being attacked" ...

YM

What's that, a jab or a psychic reading?

 

Please avoid ad hominem, YM, you're very prone to it and I'm very alert to it.

You read things where there are none, TM

Relax

YM

His main point is to profess superiority of his understanding of taoism over that of a bunch of others. He chooses easy targets like the infamous author of the Tao of Pooh to make his point. He flexes his intellectual muscles against a bunch of mental midgets and it makes him feel strong. However, he's as much off the mark as the nincompoops he pours his sarcasm out on, as clueless about what taoism actually "does" as everybody he puts down. He thinks taoism is believing "this rather than that" in your head. He thinks what he believes "about" it is bigger-better than what others believe "about" it. He thinks that's because he read some elitist edition books, university press, etc., while "others" read popular ones. That's the core of his message.

An interesting opinion of this article which clearly shows how you feel about yourself

Inside

YM

Daoism: The Oral Tradition by Dr. Michael Saso

Dr. Michael Saso

In this article I would like to explore the differences in what Western scholars perceive, and practicing Daoist masters[1] in China, take Daoism to be. To this end, I would like also to show that Daoism, as it is understood in the West, is a basically agnostic system, created by cognitive and conceptual differences which occur in westerners' translations of esoteric texts, which cannot be understood or properly translated apart from a lineage derived "koujue"[2] tradition. Put in more specific terms, texts found in the mid 15th century Ming Dynasty Zhengtong Canon, and more recent sources, are like prompt books which derive from a basically oral, not a written tradition. Both the tradition and the texts can only be understood or translated through access to a Daoist master, who knows the koujue lineage tradition.

According to this hypothesis, the interpreters of Daoism in the West, who do not have access to the koujue[3] interpretations of a lineage master, are like men and women who set out to explain how to fly an airplane, without ever having experienced flight, or the physical experience of taking off and landing one's own aircraft. They can also be compared to computer hackers trying to enter an encrypted website without the proper code. The message of the Daoist masters is encrypted in a highly specialized language used in the printed canon, and a specific kind of hand written materials called "Mijue" which accompany the oral Koujue. Mijue are handed down by a variety of Daoist schools and their lineage masters. Like flying an airplane or driving a car, Koujue Daoism is learned from a licensed lineage master.

I would like to propose, therefore, that only through field-based evidence and lineage master guided observation, can an adequate grasp of the meaning of Daoist texts, as well as ritual, and meditative practice, be obtained as a true "science".[4] This form of knowledge requires the presence of the scholar, fulfilling the role of disciple, to record the teachings of a Daoist master. The scholar of Daoism acts as a transmitter of oral evidence, as well as explicator of performance- based liturgical and meditative texts. This tradition of oral teachings, called "koujue,"[5] is an essential factor in understanding Chinese Daoism, analogous to the learning of its closely related sister-system, Tantric Buddhism. In both systems, written texts require the oral explanations of an initiated, knowledgeable, practicing master, who can explicate the full textual meaning.

Put in another way, just as the controlled experiment in the scientist's laboratory can yield valid scientific evidence, so too the oral proof found in properly conducted field work, in which the teachings of a master are given to the scholar who has assumed the role of disciple, or by some other analogy, a person to whom oral evidence is transmitted, is essential, and an absolute pre-requisite to understand, through a truly science based methodology, the meaning of esoteric, performance based[6] Daoist texts.

Rephrased in even more explicit terms, without written or visually recorded evidence derived from the laboratory or "real experience" of Daoist prayer, ritual, music, or visualization taught by a lineage master, the Western or other agnostic scholarly discussion of Daoism cannot transcend the purely academic realm.

Valid scholarly study of Daoism, therefore, must be aware of the "lu" register of Daoist lineage initiation, and the jie or strictly observed regulations of monastic or fireside-dwelling[7] Daoist life. Learned articles based on printed, non-visual or field derived observation only, are neither scientific nor scholarly accurate representations of the Daoist koujue or mijue[8] tradition.

I distinguish here the term "scientific," whereby I mean controlled experiential evidence, from academic scholarship, by which is meant evidence based on written texts, in lectures or publications given with or without valid field research, i.e., without an adequate grasp of the orally transmitted tradition. It is important to make this distinction, because of the immense amount of "scholarly" resources, which try to define or elucidate the Daoist tradition of China, vs. the relatively limited amount of evidence for the specialized oral tradition itself, which for various reasons, is not found in the majority of Western and other Asian scholarly sources.

There are many reasons for this lack of knowledge concerning the actual content of the Chinese language -- based Daoist tradition, a tradition which relies on more than one lineage, more than a single Daoshi[9] and his or her koujue oral teachings as transmitted in the various Daoist lineages. Daoists themselves, one notes from extended field observation, try to find a master in more than one tradition, and include the teachings received from these masters in signing their official titles to liturgical and ritual documents. Daoism becomes a life-long study, a mutual learning from Daoists and other men and women on a spiritual path, whom one meets along the "way." To be accurate, and to provide a valid study of the Koujue Daoist system, field evidence must contain: 1) mijue manuals; 2) jie observed regulations; 3) lu registers; and 4) signatures affixed to documents used in liturgical performances. There are two major reasons for the lack of scholarly knowledge concerning the four basic elements of the koujue tradition: 1) the Daoist master is forbidden to teach the oral tradition to anyone who has not first proved him or herself in the crucible of the "jie" rules and prescriptions for transmission; and 2) the very nature of the Western text-based scholarly tradition is exclusive rather than inclusive in its scope of scholarly resources, and acceptance or acknowledgment of other than printed sources. Let me explain these limitations separately, before discussing the Daoist oral tradition.

First, Daoism as an esoteric, i.e., orally and physically learned system, requires of its students many years of dedicated physical and mental discipline and study. The common phrase told to the disciple by the master, "Jinshi san nian, Daoshi shi nian"[10], is one of the first phrases the disciple or scholar hears from his/her master. The Daoist student must learn to play the drum[11], sing, meditate, perform the "Gold Register"[12] rites of renewal, and help bury and pray for the dead in the "Yellow Register"[13] rites of burial, before receiving koujue oral teachings. Further, the Daoist master is told in his/her own koujue or mijue prompt book[14], not to give the secrets of the "Lu" register, the various kinds of esoteric visualizations or meditations such as the Pole Star, Thunder rites, and interior meditations of apophatic emptying to anyone who is not a man or woman of dedicated virtue. Displays of anger, lewd or immoral activities, criticism of colleagues, and a proud, self-aggrandizing attitude are specifically named as reasons why one should not receive the book of lineage ordination[15], or other esoteric manuals, e.g., Pole Star and Vajra traditions.

The majority of scholars from the West, the Religious Affairs Bureau in China, and all who do not actually practice Daoism as a belief in the multitude of spirits summoned for ritual, the Daochang or Daoist ritual mandala, are simply not told about the koujue manuals or their contents. Daoist masters are especially amused by the obvious attempts of Westerners, scholars and entrepreneurs alike, to make of religious or ritual Daoism[16], a secularized system; for learned tenurial treatises, or worse, as a license for licentious freedom[17] or "sexual hygiene" based systems. In this last case, as with the Masters of Tibetan Buddhism, Asians and Westerners alike who come seeking the secrets of "The Dao of Sex" are simply steered away from the purity of the Daoist religious and meditative systems, by the discerning master of ritual meditation and apophatic prayer practice.

The great difference between the "hard" sciences and the misuse of that term in literary scholarship in the West, accounts for a second serious reason why Daoists do not reveal their oral tradition and its secrets to many Western scholars. Daoism is not exclusive, does not condemn or speak against others, and in fact accepts and respects the Buddhist, Confucian, Christian, and Islamic ways as paths leading to the Dao. By creating "schools" and spheres of academic or political influence in the Western world of scholarship and religion, speaking against or criticizing other schools and scholars, and condemning those who do not agree with their own "findings in the field"[18], Western scholars alienate themselves from the very philosophical "way" they attempt to define and teach. Daoism is not meant to be a way to gain tenure, fame, financial success, or academic power. It is a way of spiritual and contemplative prayer, which invariably includes the envisioning, summoning, and exteriorizing of spirits and their images, in both liturgical and private prayer of contemplation. Healing, acceptance of the cripple, lame, deviant, and non-conformist are signposts in Daoist recognition, contradicted by "Confucian" and "Legalist" ways favored in Eastern and Western academic and political fields.

Agnosticism or denial of Daoism as a "faith" has no place in the actual teachings of the Daoist master. Though faith[19] in the Chinese sense does not have the same connotation of "faith" in western religions[20], the Chinese sense of "faith"[21] in fact is inclusive. In contrast to Western religions, Daoism is all-inclusive[22], rather than exclusive of other faiths and belief systems. Thus, it allows belief in the Confucian, Buddhist, and per force Christian or Islamic systems, while offering modes and methods of prayer not incompatible with these systems. Daoism has had a profound influence on Sufism, Tantric Buddhism, and similar to Zen in the West, has begun to influence Christianity.

To this effect I would like to propose that "Daoism" in the modern Western use of the term refers not to what the Chinese call "Daojiao," a faith based ritual and meditative way, but to an agnostic, highly specialized field of study based on printed texts rather than on living practice.[23] Western agnostic Daoism that gives credit and preference to Western language images of what Caucasian and non-Chinese or non-practicing scholars define Daoism to be, remains unaware of the basically esoteric, orally taught traditions, and uses instead translated texts which derive from non-Chinese or non-canonical sources. In this sense, literary scholarship is not a "science", i.e., it is not based on observed field evidence, but on texts which are open to Derridean interpretation, themselves incomplete unless attended by the koujue teaching system. Even with the use of koujue, Daoist texts are, as are all texts, Derrida assures us, open to infinite interpretation, a fact acceptable to the traditional Daoist Koujue system.

I would further like to show that some Western concepts of Daoism are derived from and limited to specific dynastic periods, in the long history of Daoist thought in China. To illustrate this theory, Daoism can be compared to a great river flowing through Chinese history. Various streams feed into the great Daoist river, and may or may not belong to the oral Daoist tradition. These tributary sources include the Laozi, Zhuangzi, Yin Yang Five Element Cosmos, liturgical "rites of passage," interior meditation[24], and various monastic practices. Other rivulets once fed into the main stream, but later dried up, such as chemical alchemy, and to some extent the combat-focused or competitive practice of martial arts. As an example, some Daoist centers still practice healing forms of martial arts, but for the most part, Daoist martial techniques are used in ritual, rather than in actual combat, in most Daoist practice today.[25] Other systems, such as martial combat, spirit-posdsession[26] cult-oriented forms of qigong exercises, and Sexual Hygiene, are not a part of Dao's great river.

To demonstrate the various dynastic origins of what is called "Daoism" today, I would first like to present to the reader a brief historic schemata of important events in the history of Daoism in China.

lThe 1st Millennium, 1200 BC to 220 BC, Spring of Daoism in China

After the Yin-shang[27], and the early Zhou Dynasties, the Warring States period[28] generated at least six schools[29] or separate "ways of thinking" about society and nature, in early China. Three became "Confucian," and three "Daoist" after 220 BC: 1) Confucian or Rujia, and the related Legalist[30] and Logicians[31]; 2) Daoist[32], and the related Yin Yang Five Phase cosmology and Moist[33].

"Daojia" means literally "school" Daoism, whereas after 200 AD "Daojiao" meant the unification of all the items in the boxes below, into a single system.[34] These distinct origins of Daoism, for a millennium, were like a series of rivers flowing separately into a great ocean, which became "Daojiao"[35] during the Han period:

Laozi & Zhaungzi

Yin Yang & Five Phases

Neidan[36]

Li Ju, Yue Ling ch., rites of passage

Fangshi healing

Wushu[37]

Yijing [38]

lThe 2nd millennium, 200 BC to 900 CE. Han to Tang Dynasties, Daoist Summer in China

Daoism[39] was formulated between 140 to 500 CE, combining elements from all of the boxes shown in the above illustrations, into literary[40] and martial[41] movements. The Han Dynasty Confucian based historical chronicles[42], record that there were two kinds or lineages of Daoism during the second half of the Han Dynasty, i.e., from about 145 CE until 220 CE. These were the Celestial Master literary Daoists of West China, and the "Great Peace"[43] martial Daoists of East China. The Daoists of West China organized themselves into 24 "Sees"[44] with a wine libationer as head, while East China formed 36 "Commanderies"[45]. Daoism from its very beginnings as a "jiao"[46] became a system of summoning spirits from the Three Cosmic Realms[47], heaven, earth, and underworld, and found these cosmic systems reflected in the very inner structure of the microcosmic human body. The spiritual energies of the heavens were seen to be in the head, the earth energies in the chest, and the water or underworld energies in the lower body.

1.Daojiao, Daoism during the later Han: 145-220

Zhengyi Mengwei Daoism in West China, a "wen" literate movement, based on the Yueling chapters of the Book of Rites, & YY5E, neidan, healing, & Yijing; a parent-to-child lineage; apophatic, "black/emptying" system.

Taiping Daoism in East China, based on wushu[48] , meditation in "Pure Rooms," and a fraternity of sworn brothers, a Kataphatic, "red," spirit summoning lineages.

2.Daoism during the Three Kingdoms and North-South Periods, 220-580

1) The Sandong[49] or "Three Mt. Caves Alliances of Daoism"

Zhengyi Celestial master[50] lineage based in Lunghu Shan, Jiangxi

Lingbao Five Talisman Daoism, lineage, Gozaoshan, Jiangxi

Shangqing Lineage, Centering meditation, Maoshan, Jiangsu

Zhengyi Tianshi Daoism[51], the earliest form of Daojiao, was formulated by Zhang Daoling between 145-165, and flourished in the area of Sichuan, bordering on the Kham areas of eastern Tibet. The 24 dioceses or "Sees"[52] of the original Celestial Masters still exist. Zhang passed on his teachings to his son and grandson. Zhang Lu, the grandson, won official state approval for Zhengyi Daoism, an approval that also exists today. Zhengyi Daoists meditate on the Laozi and Zhuangzi, do rituals based on sending off memorials to the rulers of the three spiritual realms[53] of heaven, earth, and underworld, and an adapted version of the "Monthly Commands" chapter of the Book of Rites, in which five talismans are planted into five bushels of rice[54], to harmonize the five elements, five seasons, five directions, and five internal organs of the human body. These practices are the basis for all subsequent forms of Daojiao Daoism in China. The Zhengyi Daoist lineage became headquartered at Longhu Shan in Southeast China.

Lingbao Daoism is named after the Lingbao Wufu[55], and Lingbao Wuzhenwen[56], also essential elements in the practice of Daojiao today. Ge Hong, in an early 4th century work, Bao Puzi[57], describes them, and gives a list of books used by Daoists in his day, some in the modern Daoist Canon. Lingbao Daoism derives from the mid Han Dynasty "Apocrypha" texts[58], which are considered "taboo" and forbidden by the Confucian tradition.[59]

"Lingbao" means literally "heavenly" ling, blessing-filled spirit, discovered as a precious treasure[60] planted by the Dao in the five sacred mountains of the earth, and within the five organs of the human body. The ritual document in which the Lingbao true writs and five sacred talismans are planted in the earth and in the human body is called "suqi"[61] because it is usually performed between 11:00 PM and 1:00 AM. The ritual harmonizes the work of yin yang and the five elements in the macro and microcosm, outer nature and inner body.

Shangqing Maoshan Lineage Daoism[62] was founded by a woman Daoist of the ZhengyiSchool, Wei Huacun, about 330, but credit for the founding was given to her sons and their male friend, Yang Xi, who established the Shangqing School with the two Xu's, father and son[63], ca. 366-370. Shangqing Daoism uses the Yellow Court Canon[64] as a kind of ritual meditation.[65] It also promotes the meditations mentioned in the 4th chapter of the Zhuangzi, called "Xinzhai," "Zuowang," and "Yu Dao Heyi."[66] The mind is called the "upper cinnabar field", the seat of concept-and-image based thought. The heart is called the "center cinnabar field", seat of the will and of selfish attached love. The belly, the lower cinnabar field, is the seat of wisdom, i.e., intuitive awareness of Dao presence. By emptying mind and heart of images and desires, one can be aware[67] Dao presence inwardly[68] and outwardly[69]. Thus, Shangqing Daoism is also based on Laozi and Zhuangzi, and on Inner Alchemy[70].

It must be noted that Chinese popular religion and culture developed in a very special way during this period, a way which still dominates the concept and practice of being Chinese today. Confucianism provided not only access to civil service through imperial examinations, it also acted as a value system informing the relationships between humans in society. Filial piety[71], reciprocal friendship[72], benevolence in thought and action[73], loyalty to state and culture[74] and mutual respect[75] still dominate ethical & social relationships in China. Buddhism came to China during the late Han and North-South dynasties period, and provided rites of burial, merit, and the value of human compassion. Daoism as practiced in the village temples and by the fireside provided rites of passage for all of life's needs, and directed the relationships of humans with nature. The Chinese, from then to now, call this "sanjiao gueiyi" - "three religious teachings, one culture." Daoism thus cannot be understood apart from the other two great religious-ethical systems which inform Chinese culture.

3.Daoism during the Sui-Tang Period, 581-906

The oral tradition tells us that two other Daoist meditative methods became lineages or "schools" during the Sui-Tang period. These are the Beiji Pole Star[76]lineage, and the Qingwei Five Vajra[77] lineage, heavily influenced by, and mutually influencing Tantric Buddhism in Tibet and China. The Thunder or Vajra methods of meditative ritual, and to a somewhat lesser extent the Beiji Pole Star ritual meditations, are highly esoteric, and not usually taught by Daoist masters to anyone, especially western scholars, who has not received a Daoist ritual initiation, i.e., a "lu" or register. There are very few books in English or other Western book markets which treat of these systems. N.b., they are outlined, and can be found in the recent 2nd edition of Taoist Master Chuang.[78]

This field of Koujue Daoist studies is youthful and open, welcoming young scholars into the sacred mountains and hills of China, to study with the unassuming and secluded Daoist lineage masters. Men and women are considered equal in Daoism, and may equally be accepted as students and disciples. Kindness and unassuming listening skills are requisites for this study.

lThe 3rd Millennium: From the Song Dynasty onward, 960-1900, Autumn

The 3rd millennium of Daoism in China began with a truly widespread and positive sort of religious reformation, during the Song dynasty, 960-1280. China's reformation occurred some five centuries before the reformation in Europe, and was far more wide reaching and positive. The laity of China[79] became the focus of ritual and liturgical reform. Lay people, who were always a part of the traditional "Rites of Passage"[80], now took on much more important roles in the rites of burial, and "gongde" chants for merit and repentance. The folk religion of China[81], literally the "faith and beliefs of the ordinary people" became a dominant cultural force throughout China.

For a deeper understanding of the annual cycle of festivals and the life cycle of ritual used in the family household, see Blue Dragon White Tiger[82]. Daoist schools and popular sects multiplied from this period until the present day in China. Among the schools that survived until the present are: the Shenxiao Spirit Heaven, Lushan, Sannaimedium practitioners, popular Maoshan, the more traditional Yujing, Yufu, and so forth. These schools are defined in a widely circulated manual called "Daojiao Yuanliu"[83] given by the Daoist master to his or her initiated disciple.

Other movements, such as "fangzhongshu"[84], the popular possessed mediums[85], and secular qigong or wushu schools, are not to be confused with, or even associated with Daoism, except in the popular paperback book markets of the West. In the words of the Daoist masters, this modern Western trend to popularize such disciplined and time-honored religious systems of Asia, may perhaps best be classified as "Dao for Dollars", a part of marketing expertise, which need not reflect the reality or practical authenticity of the product being advertised.

One of the most important Daoist movements of the Song and Yuan[86] period, was the founding of the Quanzhen monastic order of Daoists. Quanzhen Daoism is a truly "ecumenical" or all-enfolding school of practice, as its name implies. "Quanzhen" means in a literal sense "all truth" or "all that is true" as a basis of practice. Thus, Quanzhen promotes Buddhist Chan-style meditation and chants for merit and repentance, Confucian social and family virtues, and Daoist rites of passage. Quanzhen Daoism is the most powerful school in China today, officially approved by the State through the Religious Affairs Bureau of the State Government, and the United Front Association of the Communist Party in China, Professors Kubo Noritada and Yoshioka Yoshitoyo of Japan pioneered in the study of the Quanzhen School.

Much work remains to be done in the vast and rich field of Daoist studies, now beginning its 4th millennium. Not the least of the new trends in Daoism, is a deep and penetrating study of Quanzhen and Zhengyi related Daoism today, as they exist in Hong Kong, Kowloon, modern China, and the new government sponsored Daoist school in Baiyun Guan[87], Beijing. For the first time since 1949, Chinese scholars now represent the front line of modern research in religious Daoism. Essential tools for all scholars to use in understanding the richness and complexity of the living Daojiao tradition are:

1)the signatures affixed by lineage masters to their ritual documents;

2)an oral description of the Lu registers used by the Daoist masters in liturgy and meditation;

3)the 40 character poem which identifies the lineage of the master given at the time of receiving his Lu register and initiation; some poems have only 20 characters, and others, especially from the Quanzhen tradition, may have as many as 100.

4)the use of shouyin mudra, Siddham Sanskrit mantra, and Daoist mandala visualization during ritual meditation; and

5)the special teachings of the Beiji Pole Star and Lei Fa Vajra traditions in Daoist practice.

Most Western scholars of Daoism, on the other hand, affirm the agnostic, non-religious aspects of Daoism, concepts which dominate the prevalent post-modern Caucasian mind. This extreme form of spiritual denial, which has dominated Western thinking since the time of the French enlightenment, the industrial revolution of the 19th century, and the "Prophets of Extremity"[88] of the 20th century, are exemplified in the works of Nietzsche, Heidegger, Foucault, and Derrida, who, indeed, defined and predicted the dominance of modern Western agnostic hermeneutics. All that is spiritual in Daoism, whether in its kataphatic "image filled" folk-religion aspects, or the apophatic, emptying, non-conceptual or concept emptying practices of the Shangqing, Quanzhen, and other monastic orders, are missing from the majority of modern Western studies. One need only refer to modern bookstores for popular studies of Daoism, to see that combative martial arts, translated and illustrated copies of the Laozi and Zhuangzi, sexual hygiene[89], and denials in conference papers by leading modern Western scholars that Daoism is a "faith" system, do not do justice to, indeed disregard the oral, canonical and folk traditions of Daoism in Asia.

lThe Arrival of Daoism in the Agnostic West

The arrival of Daoism in the West, as with Buddhism, presents a great change in content and practice. Daoism of Western scholars and new Caucasian "believers" witnesses fundamental change, from an inclusive, "Three teachings, one culture" focus to a new combative, exclusive, critical, and protestant like assessment of all "non-believers" or "other school" scholars, judged against a newly conceived notion of agnostic orthodoxy. Daoist masters of China would not recognize, but by the same token, would not outwardly condemn Daoism as it is practiced and taught in the West. The tradition as it is in China, must not be judged or evaluated by its western proponents.

[1] It is called "Daoshi" in Chinese.

[2] oral tradition

[3] oral

[4] i.e., physically present, bodily experienced observation

[5] or "mijue" in its written form

[6] liturgical, meditative, or healing

[7] married

[8] oral and hand-written

[9] Daoist master. It is pronounced "Daoshi" in Chinese.

[10] It means three years to make a licensed Confucian scholar, ten to make a Daoist.

[11] symbol of Dao's pulse in the universe

[12] Jinlu

[13] Huanglu

[14] a hand written esoteric manual

[15] Jiluyi, ritual for receiving the registers, see item No. 1 in the appendix, folio page 39b.

[16] Daojiao

[17] mis-interpretation of the Laozi and Zhuangzi

[18] Daoists are literate, and read what their scholar-visitors say about them and about Daoism in general.

[19] xin or belief

[20] Please note that Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all require belief in a revealed written book/word to "belong to" one or another system.

[21] xin

[22] Quanzhen

[23] For more ideas of this topic, please see "On 'Daojia' and 'Daoism'", Prof. Dr. Hengyucius, World Hongming Philosophical Quarterly Vol. March 2001. Internet URL: www.whpq.org/whpq/200103/200103/001-1.htm. Also see "Review of the Mind Nature Theories in Daojia and Daojiao", Prof. Dr. Hengyucius, World Hongming Philosophical Quarterly Vol. September 2001. Internet URL: www.whpq.org/whpq/200109/200109/002-1.htm.

[24] It is also called "Inner Alchemy".

[25] Modern Mount Wudang is an exception, where martial arts are taught to students at the foot of the mountain, due to the popularity of wushu or martial arts as depicted in Hong Kong and other Chinese and movies today.

[26] chenneling

[27] 1100 BC

[28] 480-220 BC

[29] It is called "jia" in Chinese.

[30] It is called "Fajia" in Chinese.

[31] It is called "Mingjia" in Chinese.

[32] It is called "Daojia" in Chinese.

[33] It is called "Mojia" in Chinese.

[34] For more ideas of this topic, please see "On 'Daojia' and 'Daoism'", Prof. Dr. Hengyucius, World Hongming Philosophical Quarterly Vol. March 2001. Internet URL: www.whpq.org/whpq/200103/200103/001-1.htm. Also see "Review of the Mind Nature Theories in Daojia and Daojiao", Prof. Dr. Hengyucius, World Hongming Philosophical Quarterly Vol. September 2001. Internet URL: www.whpq.org/whpq/200109/200109/002-1.htm.

[35] systematized Daoist teachings

[36] Inner Alchemy or meditation

[37] martial arts

[38] Book of Changes

[39] It is called "Daojiao" in Chinese.

[40] It is called "wen" in Chinese.

[41] It is called "wu" in Chinese.

[42] Hanshu and Hou Hanshu, from the 24 Dynasty Histories, is collections of documents collected by Confucian scholars in Han and the succeeding dynasties.

[43] It is called "Taiping" in Chinese.

[44] It is called "Zhi" in Chinese.

[45] It is called "Fang" in Chinese.

[46] Daojiao

[47] It is called "Sanguan" or "Sanyuan" in Chinese.

[48] martial arts

[49] Tong

[50] It is called "Tianshi" in Chinese.

[51] It is also called "Celestial Master Daoism" in English.

[52] It is called "Zhi" in Chinese.

[53] It is called "Sanguan" in Chinese.

[54] representing the imperial sacrifices on the five sacred peaks

[55] Lingbao five sacred talismans

[56] Ling Bao Five True Writs, the same used by Zhengyi Daoists.

[57] The Master who Embraced Simplicity

[58] gu weishu

[59] Please note that scholars ascribe the origin of Lingbao Daoism to Ge Chaofu.

[60] It is called "bao" in Chinese.

[61] night announcement

[62] it means Highest Pure Daoism.

[63] now of Maoshan

[64] Huangting Jing

[65] See M. Saso, Gold Pavilion, Boston: Tuttle, 1995.

[66] They respectively mean to fast in the heart/will, sit in mindful forgetfulness, and be one with the Dao in the lower belly -- the lower dantian.

[67] Feel / experience

[68] It is called "wuwei" in Chinese.

[69] It is called "youwei" in Chinese.

[70] It is called "neidan" in Chinese.

[71] It is called "xiao" in Chinese.

[72] It is called "yi" in Chinese.

[73] It is called "ren" in Chinese.

[74] It is called "zhong" in Chinese.

[75] It is called "li" in Chinese.

[76] wushu, Daoist healing martial arts

[77] thunder

[78] by M. Saso, Sacred Mountain Press: 2000.

[79] lay men and women

[80] birthing, puberty, marriage, and ancestor ritual

[81] It is called "minjian xinyang" in Chinese.

[82] M. Saso, Honolulu: Univ. of Hawaii, 1990.

[83] The Origins and Developments of Daoist Religious Teachings

[84] It means Sexual Hygiene. See the works of Mantak Chia.

[85] Wu or Dang-gi

[86] Mongol

[87] White Cloud Monastery

[88] See Megill, Allan, Berkeley: 1985.

[89] It is forbidden in the monastic and ritual Daoist tradition

You actually don't know what you are talking about here.

That's a possibility, Chris, thou not necessarily to correct one

YM

Unfortunately, I do not have access to Sifu Lum because of old school traditional protocol. So, I cannot ask him for mao shan meditations for the Spirit Fighting practices.

Hello FET,

there is NO chinese or daoist 'old school protocol' that prohibits a grand-grandstudent to visit and talk to his/her grand-grandteacher. It is actually quite the opposite, just like in every *normal* family all over the world it is considered respectful to visit one's elders and receive their words and suggestions.

What is disrespectful is to trying to overpass one's teacher and walk up the generation stairs, which you don't seem to be after.

I'd suggest that you go and visit Master Lum and I AM SURE you'll hear some very interesting stories about their family "Maoshan" <sic> lineage. Let me know if you need his contact number.

YM

Shangching Pai founded by Wei Huacun is a different Maoshan! -- a mystical orthodox school Max has never made a peep about.

Taomeow,

just looking at the recent posts about 'Maoshan' master Lam I stumbled upon this message from Chris, who should know more about max then yourself I guess, which do not really agree with what you say above.

Any opinion ?

YM

Max spent 29 years with the Lum family to receive this.

 

Andrew Lum is well known in the Hawaiian and Chinese circles as a traditional Shang Ching (Mao Shan) Taoist.

Lum Dai Young is kneeling in center. Andrew Lum (Max's Sifu) is a young boy standing to the left of him.

YMWONG, dear sir, you are surrounded by knowledge here

how lucky I am ...

YM

This statement does not correspond with what I have read on shamanism. Shamans are very conscious of what they do when fighting the demons that manifest as illness or poor harvest.

"Michael Lambek has elaborated an impressive cultural account of trance among the Mayotte people of Madagascar which builds successively on metaphors of 'text' and 'embodiment'. Lambel points out that spirit possession implies an elementary triangle of communication between a spirit, its host and a third party who must mediate between the first two, an intermediate consciousness that enables two different manifestations located within the same person to speak to each other. Implicit here is the idea that the host does not consciously hear what the spirit says and therefore cannot 'remember' what happens during the period of possession. Extrapolating a little, we can argue that possession intrinsically involves either blockage or contradiction or both and is itself a way of trascending contradiction."

Questions of Consciousness

Anthony Paul Cohen, Nigel Rapport

Routledge, 1995

In Cheng there was a shaman of the gods named Chi Hsien. He could tell whether men would live or die, survive or perish, be fortunate or unfortunate, live a long time or die young, as though he were a god himself. When the people of Cheng saw him, they dropped everything and ran out of his way. Lieh Tzu went to see him and was completely intoxicated. Returning, he said to Hu Tzu, "I used to think, Master, that your Way was perfect. But now I see something even higher!"

Hu Tzu said, "I have already showed you all the outward forms, but I haven't yet showed you the substance -- and do you really think you have mastered this Way of mine? There may be a flock of hens but, if there's no rooster, how can they lay fertile eggs? You take what you know of the Way and wave it in the face of the world, expecting to be believed! This is the reason that men can see right through you. Try bringing your shaman along next time and I will show him who I am."

The next day Lieh Tzu brought the shaman to see Hu Tzu. When they had left the room, the shaman said, "I'm so sorry your master is dying! There's no life left in him -- he won't last the week. I saw something very strange -- something like wet ashes!" Lieh Tzu went back into the room, weeping and drenching the collar of his robe with tears, and reported this to Hu Tzu.

Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him with the Pattern of Earth -- still and silent, nothing moving, nothing standing up. He probably saw in me the Working of Virtue Closed-Off. Try bringing him around again." So the next say the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "It certainly was lucky your master met me! He's going to get better -- he has all the signs of life! I could see the stirring of what had been closed-off!"

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu. Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Heaven and Earth -- no name or substance to it, but still the workings, coming up from the heels. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Good One. Try bringing him again." The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, and when they had left the room, the shaman said to Lieh Tzu, "Your master is never the same! I have no way to physiognomize him! If he will try to steady himself, then I will come and examine him again."

Lieh Tzu went in and reported this to Hu Tzu. Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as the Great Vastness Where Nothing Wins Out. He probably saw in me the Workings of the Balanced Breaths. Where the swirling waves gather there is an abyss; where the still waters gather there is an abyss; where the running waters gather there is an abyss. The abyss has nine names and I have shown him three. Try bringing him again."

The next day the two came to see Hu Tzu again, but before the shaman had even come to a halt before Hu Tzu, his wits left him and he fled. "Run after him!" said Hu Tzu, but though Lieh Tzu ran after him, he could not catch up. Returning, he reported to Hu Tzu, "He's vanished! He's disappeared! I couldn't catch up with him." And Hu Tzu said, "Just now I appeared to him as Not Yet Emerged from My Source. I came at him empty, wriggling and turning, not knowing anything about 'who' or 'what,' now dipping and bending, now flowing in waves -- that's why he ran away."

After this, Lieh Tzu concluded that he had never really begun to learn anything. He went home for three years and did not go out. He replaced his wife at the stove, fed the pigs as though he were feeding people, and showed no preferences in the things he did. He got rid of the carving and polishing and returned to plainness, letting his body stand alone like a clod. In the midst of entanglement he remained sealed, and in this oneness he ended his life.

Chuang Tzu

Burton Watson

I'd suggest going through this text which is very popular in China and represents a bit the common idea on the subject

http://www.terebess.hu/english/taishang.html

Best

YM

Taomeow,

you are of course entitled to your opinions.

For starters, saying that a taoist is an ordained priest, period, leaves out in the cold quite a few fathers and mothers of taoism, including Laozi, who was a government official rather than an ordained priest, Zhuangzi, who was never a priest or ordained, Lady Wei the founder of Maoshan Pai, Sun Bu-er the Immortal Female, who was a married woman raising her family till she was 57 and then a student of a recluse in the mountains and never ordained as a taoist priest, many famous female taoists in general [...]

Laozi, Zhuangzi, Pengzu ... all predate Daoism.

They are considered the forefathers just like we all certainly had ancestors to pre-history but they did not carry our family names as those did not exist yet. Our forefathers were the first to start eating cooked food and use fire for making their meal but Pizza was invented (so they say) in Naples long, long after that.

Saso here is simply making a case about the term "daoshi" and what that entails in chinese history.

Moreover, Madame Wei and Sun Bu'er were BOTH ordained as 'daoshi'. I don't know where you get the impression they were not.

There's more that's wrong with his picture, YM, way more. Saso doesn't seems to believe that sex is real, he thinks only masturbation takes place... oops, I mean, he doesn't seem to believe that taoists invoke spirits, he thinks they only visualize them. With all due respect, he can visualize all he likes, but he won't conceive of what taoism actually does with spirits and deities this way anymore than masturbation will conceive a child.

Spirits, as everything else, are only a projection of our minds.

Yet, the Daoist interact with them *as if they were real* ....

Take care Taomeow

YM

Nice talking to you too,

Thanks for the info. It does make sense.

The last thing that would complete it, would be to tell us what you do. I was hoping for that, and maybe the girls too, if I'm not misreading their last posts.

Seems you are not into that for now, are you?

Also, it's great to read something from Saso's books here. By all means do that anytime you think it's appropriate.

Good luck

 

L1

It very much depends on what you mean by "into that".

If you mean being a professional and making a living as a Daoist of course I am not. I actually run a quite succesfull business which gives me enough money and time to cultivate my personal interests.

And it has been so for the last 30 years or so, if that answers your question.

Thanks again

YM

YM,

 

I like your post very much.

 

A daoist priest once told me that the daoshi as you said were fully ordained "priests", who were part of a congregation and had a specific role to fill within a community, such as funeral rites for example. Nobody who wasn't ordained would call themselves daoshi (or daoist).

 

The invention of a person who follows the daoist scriptures or follows the general practices of a daoist, but who is not ordained, is a relatively new idea. The priest in question refered to these people as lay-daoists. Much like a lay-buddhist is not ordained as a monk, but still follows the beliefs and practices the best they can given the situation they are in.

 

I like this term, as it separates those who are fully ordained daoist priests from those who follow daoism as best they can, but doesn't diminish or take away any meaning from the daily practices of those that follow daoism in this fashion.

 

What are your thoughts?

Yes, Jakara, some people tend to address lay pratictioners as such.

Those are so-called 'jushi' is chinese, but 'jushi' in China usually belong and have been officially accepted into a specific lineage.

The idea of people following daoist or daoistic practices at best they can without being ordained and not being officially part of a specific sect/line is not new at all. As a matter of fact there is PLENTY of evidence that this has been the case throughout chinese history !

What's new (and western) is the idea that this makes one a "Daoshi".

Calling things for what they are do not take away anything nor diminish their value, it is the opposite in fact !

Best

YM

Thanks YMW

 

so, if all of us should give up their beliefs and opinions, and only follow mainstream scholars and history, then there's going to be too fiew taoists left, if any, I'm afraid. Is this what you are trying to point out?

Also, do you think Taoism is a trademark of China only?

Hello Little,

I was quoting M. Saso who is not only an excellent scholar but an ordained Daoist and has been studying and practicing the subject for almost 50 years.

Daoism is not EXCLUSIVE to China and the chinese of course.

The title "Daoist", however, is a western term so I am sure people mean different things by that same word.

But if you consider "Daoist" as the translation of Daoshi then what I am pointing to is what is referred to here in its birthplace.

If people are after the *Daoism of western imagination* there is no problem of course and I am sure a lot of people would get plenty of good stuff from that. But than they should call it another name, or at least leave alone Maoshan, Kunlun or all the places where the ideas I am talking about are deeply rooted.

After all there is more Pizza Hut in the world than original Pizza from Naples.

But Pizza Hut never claims its Pizza is the Original Napolitan recipe and - rightly and proudly - call it the America Pizza instead.

Then simply stop talking about *Maoshan Daoism* and start discussing about *American Daoism*.

I have no objection to that.

- GENERALLY men seem to be more attracted to a more rigurous and scholar-type vision of Taoism - my case also (although I see fit to explore it's other "parts" too, e.g. Shamanism and Shamanic practice)

- GENERALLY women seem to be more attracted to feel-type, not-too-much-rationalised view of Taoism, less rigurous, leaving room for self-expression.

This might be true, especially in modern society, but what people tend to do, feel or think do not change what things are.

Throuout the years, Taoism has been presented as opposing to Confucianism, and Buddhism - more scholastic type teachings. Taoist adepts are presented as the freelancers of God, doing whatever whenever, guided not by moral and social law, but by their own inner law.

 

So... here you come and mess us all up - I hope you can take a joke.

If I couldn't take jokes I wouldn't be on this Board <= and can you take one ?

Kidding aside, usually what people in the west (and nowadays also here) tend to assume about some great Daoists of the old times is very much filtered by chinese novels, popular narrative and romances.

So you have Maoshan sourceres spending all their day chasing jumping ghosts in late Qing dynasty outfit or Tang dynasty errand Daoists always drunk passing the day singing poems in the moonlight.

What people don't understand is that to become "free" you must first of all learn full, total and absolute controll. Think about all great artists even in the west, think about Pablo Picasso and try to look at the process of 'freedom' of these great artists: first you learn strict controll, the technique, the style, you paint with the actual rigor of a photographic camera !

Only when you have obtained full controll can you trascend it and reach real freedom.

And besides, we have been speaking of refferences, I'm sure that's a pretty Chinese thing, I know it is, so, if you don't mind me asking, what are your refferences YMW?

Why should we belive you?

 

With sincerity

 

L1

You should not believe me as you should not believe a stranger from the web

But many different opinions should concur to create your understanding, some may make more sense some less and tomorrow your views may change also because of that.

Nice talking to you,

Best

YM

oh...I have no reference

 

Its just something Ive read somewhere sometime... I only wanted to hear if you had any ideas about it.

I see, but I don't really follow the reasoning so I wanted to put the idea in its perspective.

Sorry !

YM