YMWong

3600$ is roughly 22 000 RMB, that's an astronomical amount for a 'student in China'; teachers are paid 2400-3000 RMB a month. A five star hotel would be 5-600 RMB/day, all inclusive, which I'm sure is alot less than what they get. Robbing the bank aren't we. Even if I had the money I'd prolly still be too cheap to go for it, so maybe it's me.

Reasonability of a price always depends on what one receives in return vis-a-vis his expectations, so some people will tell you what they receive is priceless and therefore the cost is extremely cheap.

Everyone has a different standard.

Anyway, I am afraid to tell you that a 5 star hotel in a main city in China is now in the range of 1-2,000/day AT LEAST and that if you ask some of the (millions) who are managing quite well nowadays they will tell you 22,000 RMB is nothing. An average/decent office job in a city is now about that much, people who search the garbage to collect carton and other recyclable material and run around the city like coolies make an average of 15-20,000 RMB/mo.

Things have changed quite fast in China in the last few years ...

YM

I'd personally walk from clinic to clinic healing people unaware. I'd minister to the needy and devote my life to helping others. If I could make level 72

To "devote your life helping others" you dont need any 'level', you only need to be compassionate enough so you can do it NOW

But you choose not to, apparently, so good luck for your search of the 72

YM

http://hk.hkjebn.com/products_cate/products.php?lang=en&cate_id=4&shop=hk

Best

YM

The author and Frank Kai ("master" Kwan Sai Hung real name) did not take money from Blofeld pockets (thou they may have from his descendants, depending on the copyright situation of his works) but they DID stole money from the gullible who bought their books thinking they were a (real) biography and by teaching others directly (Frank Kai has a school and quite a few students). Please check my old message here http://thetaobums.com/topic/8102-master-kwan-sai-hung/?p=122152 for more details and info.

While there is no need to demonize them, I find it unacceptable to excuse them and even less to present them as the good Samaritans. They are just two business people into making money, even if that mean cheating their "customers"

YM

Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works.

 

Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90):

 

"It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). "

 

 

YM

The most advanced being known to the public [...]

[...] according to a book written by a guy you don't know, about another guy you have never met

But of course, if that is "acceptable for your purposes" ... good luck!

YM

No it shouldn't, there are 10 beings at or above his level alive on earth. That's it.

You know a lot then

So you don't personally know JC, please correct me if I am wrong, so you don't really know "his level" (to use your words) and yet you are convinced that "there are only 10 ecc ecc"

Nice

YM

Professional lumberjacks will be beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching in their system of cutting trees, doesn't mean I am interested in learning their art.

If that was the matter in discussion then I guess your point of there being "10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people" should change more to something in the range of hundreds of thousands, no?

YM

I am not saying there are not tons of totally dedicated and focused and serious teachers, most probably beyond a level I could ever dream of reaching.

 

What I am saying is their practices themselves are virtually worthless garbage, that could never take me where I want to go.

I am sorry but I don't get your point: if those people you mention are "beyond a level you could ever dream of reaching" why would their practice be garbage?

YM

There are 10 beings at or above JC's level alive on earth, out of nearly 7 billion people.

MPG, somebody who is in kindergarten does not need a PHD from Harvard as a master - any primary school teacher can do

The problem is that people have too high expectations and, very often, think so high of themselves that cannot accept anything less then a Nobel Laureate for mentor

YM

Because the hard truth is, authentic teachers like JC aren't as easy to find, not as easy as finding another job anyway. If they were, all this discussion wouldn't have happened in the first place.

Of course, but even with jobs you can have a great one, with lots of career opportunities, where you are treated well and you make good money ... or you have one of those shitty positions in a meaningless company that you hate

Life

YM

And that, my friends, is 75% of why we’re seeing these arguments. .

If I travel of my own volition to a different country I am bound to follow the local law

If then I commit an offense and I get arrested I cannot say "nobody told me" or "in my country we do otherwise" even if that is the case. It doesn't work like that

So while, as I said, one can empathize with Jim's situation that is not a reason to put the blame on the "cultural diversity" alone

Moreover, as I said, Jim seems to accept easily that somebody (Kosta) get kicked out from the school but when the same thing happens to him that is not acceptable anymore. This again rules out much of the "cultural diversity" problem, in my opinion

YM

http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AJ51Y05MNW0JT/ref=cm_pdp_rev_title_1?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview#R3O932P2LE0Z0J

Dao for dollars., May 1, 2013

The work listed here, and others attributed to "Shifu Lin" have no real Daoist content, but are made up by the behind-the-scenes author for the purpose of making a profit, misleading readers both into believing that such a person as Shifu Lin existed, and/or is an orthodox Daoist. The Muo Pai school is also not a legitimate, recognized Wushu school, readers must be warned of the fictional (ie, made up)content of the actual author's works. The use of my name in "contributing" to these works refers to e-mails in which the author's erroneous ideas were hopefully pointed out. Works like these can be catalogued under the general title "Dao for $$$). Not to be recommended for purchase.

Dear Jim,

as I read in another thread you are having health problems let me first of all wish you to get well soon!

While most probably we can all understand and sympathize with your disappointment may I ask you why you seem to be ready to accept that another guy like Kosta is removed from training:

Now about Kosta, clearly, you do not know Kosta. John told me way back in 95 that he didn't like Kosta, and in 96 he said he was not going to teach him any more. Why?...because he couldn't trust him.

but when it comes to you this is not acceptable anymore?

If you have been working, like most of us, you might have been fired before.

This happens for various reasons, where "right" or "wrong" very much depends on which side you belong to, but in any case it is always at the discretion of the person who hires you and not to yourself to decide.

He may have his own reasons, which you may find hard to understand as you are not in his shoes, but once you are fired you simply look for another job and let this one go.

Isn't it that simple?

Best

YM

Master "Kwan Sai Hung" (actually Frank Kai, born in New York) is a fictional character and Deng's book are totally made up, profusely copying existing works.

Also see for instance Poul Andersen, "A Visit to Huashan" in Cahiers d'Extreme Asie 5 (1989-90):

"It may be added in this connection that the book [Hedda Morrison's Hua Shan: The Taoist Sacred Mountain in West China], with its fascinating pictures of monks and landscapes, has evidently served as one of the sources for an interesting forgery concerning Huashan, namely Deng Ming-Dao's The Wandering Taoist (San Francisco, 1983). The latter publication contains the biography of one Kwan Saihung, a teacher of martial arts somewhere in the United States, who was ostensibly brought up on Huashan and there initiated into the Zhengyi Huashan sect (sic). The biography is presented as based on stories allegedly told by the master himself. Thus on p. 59 we read, as part of the hero's account of his experiences during his first ascent of Huashan: "The East Peak Monastery was plain stucco and tile and was composed of groups of four-square buildings set in quadrangles. There were also smaller huts of wood and clay. As they passed a hut set behind an iron bell topped with a stone cup that collected dew, Saihung saw a willow-thin man sunning himself on the terrace. He wore grey robes and a black hat with a jade rectangle sewn to its front. The accolytes told Saihung that he was a sorcerer." But comparison with Plate 38 in Morrison's book makes it clear beyond peradventure that the description is based upon this photograph, and not possibly on independent observation at Huashan. No doubt the picture shows the dew-collecting stone cup above the iron bell, but closer scrutiny reveals that in fact the cup is standing at some distance behind the bell. It is thus only the photographic angle that makes it possible to see "an iron bell topped with a stone cup" (in itself, of course, a rather unlikely concept). "

YM

Qingcheng Mountain suffered a lot during Sichan earthquake a few years ago, some of the old temples went to rubble

http://cd.qq.com/a/20080606/000137_7.htm

YM

Transmission (from Encyclopedia of Daoism by F. Pregadio)

The simplest form of transmission in China was pedagogical. A teacher such

as Confucius orally passed on his learning to his pupils who recorded his

wisdom for later posterity. An erudite might also personally present a text

containing his wisdom to a deserving recipient. Another type of transmission

appeared in the “weft texts” (weishu 緯書; see *taoism and the apocrypha)

that were popular during the reign of Wang Mang (r. 9–23). Those texts were

the repositories of myths, and each was associated with one of the Confucian

classics. A “dragon-horse” bearing the eight trigrams (*bagua) of the *Yijing

on its back emerged from the Yellow River to convey them to Fu Xi伏羲 who

copied them. A yellow dragon bearing theChart of the [Yellow] River (Hetu) on

its back crawled out of the river and presented it to *Huangdi. A giant, black

tortoise carrying a talisman in its beak came forth from the water, placed it

on an altar before Huangdi and departed. A numinous turtle with theWrit

of the Luo [River] (Luoshu) imprinted on its cinnabar red shell in azure script

emerged from the Luo River and transmitted it to Cangjie 倉頡, a divinity

known as the inventor of writing. (On these two charts, see the entry *Hetu

andLuoshu.) The trigrams, chart, talismans (*fu), and texts were tokens that

confirmed Heaven’s conferral of the mandate on the ancient sage kings, and

they became essential elements of Taoist rituals and ordinations.

On June 11 of 142, the Most High Lord Lao (Taishang Laojun 太上老君),

i.e., Laozi deified (*Laojun), descended to Mount Heming (*Heming shan,

Sichuan) and bestowed the Dao of the Covenant with the Powers of Orthodox

Unity (zhengyi mengwei 正一盟威) on *Zhang Daoling. This tradition, perhaps

a later fabrication, was another sort of transmission, a personal revelation to

a living human from a deity. What Zhang precisely received on that occasion

is not at all clear since various sources supply different titles. Evidence seems

to indicate that the works of Zhang or other *Tianshi dao leaders included

registers (*lu), talismans, petitions, and codes. Later in the Six Dynasties, the

priesthood, Zhang’s successors, was responsible for inducting juveniles and

young people into the faith. The rites involved transmitting registers.

Scriptural transmission. The *fangshi introduced another form of transmission

involving arcane texts, some of which made their way into the alchemical

tradition of Taoism. *Ge Hong traced their transmission back to *Zuo Ci

(fl. ca. 200) and was one of the recipients of works at an altar (tan 壇) in the

mountains of what is now northeast Jiangxi. There he received from his master

three texts on alchemy under an oath of covenant (meng 盟) as well as secret

oral instructions (koujue 口訣) on their meaning that could not be written

down (see *Taiqing). Originally, a deity (*shenren) had bestowed them on Zuo

who in turn transmitted them to Ge’s uncle, *Ge Xuan, who passed them on

Ge’s master, *Zheng Yin. Ge Hong mentions another form of transmission involving the *

Sanhuang wen (Script of the Three Sovereigns). Immortals hide copies of it in caves

on all of the sacred mountains. When a person qualified to attain the Dao

enters one of the mountains and earnestly meditated, its god will open the

grotto and permit him to view the text. The process, however, was a little

more complicated, as there were two traditions concerning the revelation of

the scripture; but in both cases the text appeared spontaneously on the walls

of grottoes after the persons stared at it or meditated and fasted. When they

were able to discerning the writing, the two left pledges, copied the scriptures

and departed.

Transmission and revelations in the Six Dynasties. The oldest reliable accounts

of divine transmission to humankind date from the second half of the fourth

century. Between 364 and 371, a dozen or so of the Perfected appeared to *Yang

Xi in nocturnal visions to bestow upon him more than ten *Shangqing scriptures

and hagiographies as well as more than forty scrolls of oral instructions. Of

all the Taoist revelations that occurred between 142 and 400, this is the only

one that appears to have been the product of true ecstatic experience because

Yang and his patrons, the Xus 許, kept detailed transcripts of the epiphanies.

The influence of older occult sources is evident in the scriptures; the visions

may have been nothing more than instruments for reshaping earlier writs and

procedures to conform to Yang’s new insights and agenda.

In the fifth century, the *Lingbao order added a new twist to the lore of

transmission. They contended that their scriptures had emerged before creation

as coagulations of *qi (pneuma). After the gods appeared, the Celestial Worthy

of Original Commencement (Yuanshi tianzun 元始天尊; see *sanqing) had

the texts cast on gold tablets and stored in his celestial archives. Thereafter,

he granted lesser deities access to them if they underwent the proper rituals.

Five eons passed before the Celestial Worthy decided it was time transmit

the texts to a mortal. At his behest three of the Perfected descended with a

cortege of carriages, an escort of cavaliers and a retinue of immortal lads and

jade maids in the millions. That host landed on Mount Tiantai (*Tiantai shan,

Zhejiang) where the Perfected bestowed the scriptures, one by one, on Ge

Hong’s uncle who had made himself worthy of receiving them by suffering

through innumerable reincarnations and having compassionately vowed to

strive for the salvation of all mankind.

Transmission and ordination. These traditions, however fanciful, served a purpose.

They established the sanctity of the scriptures as direct gifts from the

gods. They also laid the foundations for mundane transmissions of sacred texts.

Once the texts found their way into human hands it was the responsibility of

the recipients to pass them on to worthy recipients. By the fifth century with

the appearance of the first liturgy for ordinations, compiled by *Lu Xiujing,

the process of transmission became codified (see *Lingbao shoudu yi). Taoist

investitures were the liturgical confirmation of a master’s transmission of texts

to his disciple and were overwhelmingly juridical in nature. There were three

legal formalities required of ordinands. The first were covenants by which they

bound themselves to the gods and promised to venerate the scriptures. The

punishment for violating such pacts was condemnation to the dark prisons

of eternal night in hell. The second were vows. Ordinands gave their word

that they would be temperate, chaste, compassionate, humane, benevolent,

tolerant, and filial. The third were oaths. Ordinands swore never to transmit

the canon indiscriminately, reveal its contents, violate its admonitions, converse

or disparage the scriptures, or bestow the texts for a fee. To guarantee that

they would never breach their word, they had to submit pledges in the form

of gold, cash and textiles.

Not to nitpick, but Liao Kong was Qianfeng's master; Qianfeng (or 千峰老人) was a name taken by Zhao Bichen... Right? If there is a text circulating written directly by Liao Kong's hand, I would be interested to see it.

Yes, I stand corrected, nice to see somebody with knowledge and wisdom once in a while on this board

YM

I hear officially you need a degree to obtain a visa, but in practice there are many individuals teaching there without a degree.

Well, if you want to start your spiritual journey and become a "monk" based on a lie with the authorities or overstaying your tourist Visa (this is what many young foreigner do in China) I would personally question your motivations in first place.

Sorry to be straightforward

Best

YM

1. Yes, as white as they come (stereotypical Anglo-Saxon)

2. Nope

3. Plan on getting a CELTA as soon as I can save enough money

 

Japan I imagine would be the most difficult to obtain a visa, especially since you need a degree to teach English in Japan (as far as I am aware.)

In China too, according to the law you need a degree to obtain a real Visa

Among all the traditions you are interested in, and they are a lot (too many IMHO), I would say that Tibetan Buddhism has the greater amount of good teachers overseas. Just find one such group near to you and start to get acquainted but don't look too far, just take things easy and walk step by step. You will realize that most of the pre-conceived ideas you have might be totally wrong so, on the way, you will make HUGE adjustments to your plans

Best

YM

I've long had an interest in Chinese culture and have had desires to teach English abroad, particularly in China. I figured I would use the visa from teaching English as a first step into China and go from there, seeing what I could find.

Are you white?

Do you have a degree?

Do you have a TEFL?

YM

So, what is this 'real transmission' exactly? Is it a specific knowledge? A state of being? A 'realization'?

True Transmission is the establishment of a connection, just like when connecting wires to allow for electricity to flow

YM

what is the difference between technique and transmission, and how does transmission occur?

 

Thanks

＂True transmission" only occurs when one is accepted as disciple in a certain school, which means he is "introduced" to the line of transmission of the ancestors from that specific school. Without this connection one can only go so far in his path, which will be one of "techniques" that may increase his skills/qualities similarly to any other training but nothing more than that.

Transmission usually takes the form of an acceptance/introduction rite, different schools do that differently but the meaning is the same. It is very much like enrolling at a certain university: there are specific requirements and only if you get accepted and follow their curriculum you have the chance of learning with their teachers and getting their degree.

YM

while I cannot say that I am 100% certain I am going to become a Taoist monk in China, that is what I am primarily interested in learning more about from anyone who knows more about this subject.

Leaving aside all "spiritual" considerations for a moment I would like to remind you that to live in a country (like China) you need a Visa, and since there is no "monk visa" that I know I guess you have to find a solution to that first of all

YM