YMWong

You are a nice guy and I guess sincere in your opinions but totally deluded, Mike, as you clearly don't know what you are talking about. I suggest you to move around a bit, especially in China and the Far East, and then let us know if Mao Shan Pai has ANYTHING to do with what you practice and teach and if it is 'gone forever'. And by the way, 'shamanism' and Mao Shan Pai could NEVER go together as Shangqing has long ago belonged to the 'corrected' group of schools that took the distance from those early popular practices. But again, you don't know anything else apart from what you might have read in a couple of books. YM

Hello Niko, while I am the first when it's time for sharing I don't think WLP or the organizers would be happy with this kind of 'generosity'. And rightly so, in my opinion, as info gathered on a first seminar by a beginner can easily be misunderstood and this sharing - while positive in intents - can get negative results. But again, I don't speak for the group and they might have a different idea ... YM

Hello there, a good friend from down under would be interested, if you could help me find more details (full name, tel. or email etc.) TIA YM

Post #73 comes from Eskildsen, the 'sitting in lotus' thing comes from Wang Liping's group publications in chinese YM

When questioned on the meaning of the technical internal alchemical words "dragon" and "tiger", Wang Zhe [founder of Quanzhen daoism] responded with the following poem: Ask not about the dragon and the tiger. The single point in your mind is your enlightened master. When your qi is under control and your spirit (shen) is stable, this is what is called "the copulation". The mind rectified in diligence and sincerity produces a warm glow. To constantly serve all [sentient beings] equally is the Great Dao. If [your mind is kept] pure and clear without relent, you will gain true compassion. All becomes manifest tou you as the circular light reaches completion, Guiding forth the golden elixir and fetching the jade fungi.*** 問龍虎交媾 莫問龍兒與虎兒，心頭一點是明師。 炁調神定呼交媾，心正精虔做煦熙。 平等常施為大道，淨清不退得真慈。 般般顯現圓光就，引領金丹采玉芝。 YM *** The teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters S. Eskildsen SUNY Press, 2004

Hello Reader, the translation should be correct. The original text speaks about transforming 气 (qi) into 炁 (qi). These two terms are often used interchangeably all along chinese history to refer to the same thing, but most daoist schools take the first (the most commonly used spelling for 'qi' energy 气) as the name of post-heaven 'qi' and the second (older form of 'qi' 炁 energy) to refer to pre-heaven 'qi'. Ken, of course most teachings are useless without a teacher. I have been into daoist studies for 30 years and I always 'followed the rules' very strictly, but the material I posted is already public so I see no reason why it shouldn't be discussed further to help those interested. As a matter of fact, the help of people like you in this specific matter (given that each school has different approaches and understanding) could help shed some light on a lot of misunderstanding. If, on the other side, you don't think you or Kathy can or are willing to help, maybe I'll continue translating the whole thing myself. I see what you mean, TM, but I think the text talks about a different 'sealing'. The sentence refer to 'half lotus' so I guess it refer to 'sealing' (pressing) on the yongquan point of the lower foot with the upper thigh. YM

Ken, as you know the group put to print 'proceedings' of most seminars and lectures for 'internal use', this is one of those brochures. I am travelling right now but I will scan cover and details for you when I get back. YM

I am not in Wang's lineage so I cannot voice for his school, maybe Ken can give his opinions here. In any case, when you are sitting most of the body is still but in most neigong practices one moves the arms and/or the hands. So this should refers to changes/movements of both the arms (gestures) and/or the hands (mudra). YM

TM is right, Water is the first 'agent' according to most chinese sources. I'd suggest those interested to look for instance at so-called 太一生水 manuscript http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiyi_Shengshui https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/...+philo+tyss.pdf YM

Silvers has been back to business for a few years already, apparently not much involved in Daoism anymore YM

Some old material from WLP If I find it I'll scan it for you YM

In Wang Liping's system they consider the crossed leg position as 'earth', the single lotus as 'man' and the full (double) lotus as 'sky'. I don't remember having seen this idea elsewhere They have nine different hand postures to go with lotus. YM

It should be pointed out that, while Prof Kohn's categories are more or less mirrored in Chinese history, the first group cannot be called 'daoists' in the true sense of the word (and in fact they are not called daoists in chinese). What is referred here as 'Literati Daoist' is simply a person with a good degree of cultural background and an inclination toward daoist writings. The fact that he may try to put those teachings into work in his own life doesn't make him any more 'daoist' than my mom, who tries her utmost mixing the best ingredients in the kitchen. Moreover, Daoists of the second and third category are ALL trained by a Daoist master and have ALL been accepted into a precise Daoist lineage, accepted the regulations and/or received registers. Most of those replying to this poll, in my experience, may only at best fit the 'Literati' category YM

ROTFL YM

Oh boy, you are totally deluded and dishonest: in chinese we say 名師出高徒 (An accomplished disciple owes his accomplishments to his great teacher) and in this respect you finely represent your teacher ... YM

If some space becomes available may I be the same person too ? YM

When a daoist is ordained he is given a set of rules, this is called 受戒 (shoujie, accepting the prohibitions) in chinese. Some are general and most are lineage-related. Daoism strives to bring us back to "Nature" but this is NOT the 'nature' we mostly know. Our understanding of 'being natural' is bound by the fact that we see the world of phenomena from our (spoiled) eye. A baby is natural when he is born but soon after he starts to get spoiled, so we need to re-learn that. Therefore to 'become free' we have to "be bound" and follow the rules first. Not even close, a student and not a proficient one YM

True, of course, but you seem to fail to realize that the same (but opposite) thing is also true with you guys (DV supporters): he could kick your ass and you would still find an excuse for him ... YM

Like many in the west you mistake "dao" for "daoism" The first is a universal principle that in China belongs to Daoists, Buddhists and Confucianists alike The second is a specific set of practices with their rigid rules and limited systems Take care YM

Of course but, as I just said, discussing among 'peers' on the web and learning from a teacher is a totally different thing. Learning daoism in a master/disciple relationship in a traditional way is done as I just explained. And by the way that is the only way to learn daoism as opposed to learn ABOUT daoism, which can of course be achieved in many ways including talking over the web You misunderstand me or maybe I was not clear enough I said TALKING about those things lead people astray and very often these days it is the TALKING and the packing that attract people to the various "masters". Doing is "real" and it may, often, involve 'moving qi' and various other things but it is not spoken, explained or told UNTIL a student - only by copying his master - has achieved the little necessary to UNDERSTAND any eventual explanation Don't worry thou, we can always remain of our own opinions. What I am describing IS - however - how daoism is taught in a traditional setting and what you describe - IMHO - is what western daoism (and too often modern day chinese "daoism") is taught today YM