YMWong

Oh, and don't forget Tao Gaming and Tao Tasting Our new double-o-seven looks so cool, obviously a bright man YM

Let alone the hard blow to the english language ... YM

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost.php?p=1059979741&postcount=23 sorry to disappoint you guys YM

Had not seen this vid before http://catalog.digitalarchives.tw/dacs5/System/Exhibition/Detail.jsp?OID=3253490 Ni Hua Ching, who later moved to the US, is shown here in 1970 starting at 00:41 doing Chen style Taijiquan YM

Mal, may I suggest that you do no less then 40-45 minutes in a single session instead of two separate short sessions? Short sessions like that are close to useless in zhanzhuang, in my opinion/experience YM

http://www.youtube.com/user/Alexpower888#p/u/0/r109YEPKZe8 YM

Maybe I am not clear enough on what I am trying to say, I am sorry. Your example is not useful, as it "translate" a 'subject' you know about. One thing is the "technical terminology" that of course can be translated into understandable English, but once you have done that you are still left with a useless text. In my nuclear/kindergarten example, more close to the situation at hand, you can translate the technical terminology of "a proton" to a "subatomic particle" but it won't make much difference for a reader like my mom who has no specific formation/education on the subject. To be frank, even my idea of "a proton" is very superficial and to be able to read (and gather a bit of useful info) from your translation of a nuclear plant manual it would take me thirty years of schooling. May I respectfully ask you how old are you, MPG? YM

But my question is: how on earth could you ever do that? For somebody who has a kindergarten education and can barely read is it possible to "translate in simple English" the blueprints of a nuclear plant? And once you have done that, supposing you do, what can the use of that writing be? Those are "user manuals" to be gone through with the help of a teacher from that lineage, who teaches you what those words mean PRACTICALLY and even then you really understand them AFTER you have done the practice and experienced those words by yourself ... Best is always to take one step at the time, never make any assumption, and plan goals that are WITHIN REACH only. You will find that, by the time you have reached that first (close to you) goal your understanding has a lady changed and you next goal is going to be in a different direction that you had expected YM

Again, MPG, I don't think you are looking at it from the right perspective. Daoists also are required to beg for food, especially Quanzhen and therefore Longmen. But this is done to help get rid of ego and offers of food come from the rich, they would not eat food taken from the poor. Which brings me to suggest you another book by Eva Wong called "Seven Taoist Masters" which is the novelized story of Quanzhen founder and his seven disciples, one of which is the founder of Longmen. Although that is a novel it is very much based on actual history and you can see hints of what begging and money are meant for on a Daoist path. Best again YM

Songofdistantearth raises some very important points here, and I'd like to add my comments if I may. Hopefully I won't sound too judgmental. Doing by choice a bare minimum and yet making use of government support is, in my opinion, opposite to any path of spiritual/human development. Actually it is the other way round, we are supposed to do our best if we have the chance to earn up and return whatever we can to those in need, those who really HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE and must be supported. Moreover, MPG, I really can't see how one can plan his life on something he has totally no idea about. How in the world do you know we are going to be reborn, what do you know for sure about that? For as much as we know we might dissolve into nothing and you would be affecting your whole life, and your family and those around you, on a totally wrong belief. Finally, again, you are after things you don't know (Mo Pai, Longmen) and about which you have only assumptions. Wrong assumptions in my opinion. Yet, you tell us you practice now once a week "but plan to retire and do more later". You have "Daoist Yoga" and find it gibberish, yet you take the pain of buying a book even more gibberish (and in Chinese) from a stranger ov the web: for what, if I may ask ? I am afraid, my friend, you are really going the wrong way. I am sure you trust it is the right thing but .... well ... My suggestion is simple: find a master and work it out NOW! Don't worry about the future, about rebirth and about ANYTHING you don't know and you have not experienced yet. Work it out now, don't wait, and when you'll start experience what it is you can start making plans - STEP BY STEP (only short term goals that are within your reach) - and go ahead with that. You will discover, trust me on that, that it is no what you think it is Best in your trip YM

While the term "daoshi" has been in use quite early, by memory I think as early as the Warrior States, at the time 'daoists' were mostly called by other names: from the earliest 'fangshi' to 'fashi' to 'zhenren' etc. I think there is no mention in the DDJ, thou I seem to recall a 'daoren' reference in the Xiang'er commentary, and most probably not in Zhuangzi (which might have plenty of "zhenren" and "fangshi" I guess). A "daoshi" can then be called by other terms depending on his specialization, his lineage, his rank etc. Most of those original terms, be that before of after the common usage of the term "daoshi" in history, have been translated variously as "taoist" (then 'daoist' with the advent of pinyin in academia) in western sources. A few authors have tried to suggest terms like "daoist priest" to identify certain characteristics but ever since N. Sivin the bickering around the usage of the term 'taoist/daoist' has been heated. Anyway, it does not help to look at sources 2000 years old to define daoism or a daoist. Actual daoism is what has been transmetted to us to modern times and it is more important to look at the last couple of hundred years to understand the Tradition. Academia has understood this problem so much so that in the last few years, after dozen of years spent only looking at written sources of antiquity, studies of daoism in the Qing and late Qing dynasty together with fieldwork done in China finally dominated. It is to those sources that people in the west should look at for guidance, as they are closer in time and affinity to what daoism is today. For one, I suggest the excellent work by Prof. Liu Xun (Daoist Modern: Innovation, Lay Practice and the Community of Inner Alchemy in Republican Shanghai, Cambridge: Harvard University Asian Center/HUP, 2009)which sheds good light on this issue. Best YM

Guys, this horse has been beaten to death for YEARS! First of all no (chinese) daoist would say that one has to "become a part of a Daoist lineage to really experience Dao". I don't know where you get that, but 'Dao' is a concept that permeates chinese history and therefore it is a common idea to everybody and everything. Confucians have 'their' Dao, Buddhists have 'their' Dao and they all agree it is the same old Dao. The problem of "calling oneself a Daoist" it is very much a semantic issue actually, because the word "daoist" (in english) is a NEW WORD and different people give it different meaning. As a new word/concept everyone is entitled to call him/herself as such. If, however, one takes the word "Daoist" as the english translation of the chinese word "daoshi" (or similar terms) THEN it is correct to say it cannot be utilized for someone who has not received oral transmission and has been accepted by a lineage master in a specific (chinese) daoist tradition. It is quite simple in fact YM

I'd like to suggest to all friends, if I may, to avoid loosing time after 'secret texts'. Most of the manuals are just meant for the initiate of that specific tradition and are totally useless for the passer by, they don't contain direct instructions and they are only a 'notepad' for the pratictioner. As of old, masters knew that practical informations can only be passed on 'hand on' so some sort of DIY manuals only appeared in modern times and those "instructions" are so basic that nowadays it suffices to browse the web to find more details. Those are the likes of Luk's 'Daoist Yoga'. For those that are after that kinds of instructions I suggest to pick up books like the one recently translated by F. Pregadio (http://www.goldenelixir.com/press/tao_01_foundations.html) which actually deals with Longmen sect information. Best YM

As I said these manuals are like the user manual of a car. My mom, who is old and doesn't drive, may be able to read the words but would not make ANY use of it. My dad drives, but unless the manual is the one for his own car he too would not be able to make much use of it. Only the owner of that specific vehicle, with the car at his disposal and having being taught how to drive, will be not only able to read the manual but also make the best use of it. So any chinese with good classical education would read (much of) these manuals but won't understand most of them, or at best will misunderstand most of their meanings. YM

Well, Kronos, I have concurred with you that the image doesn't seem to belong to Djiang school (thou frankly speaking only those from that line could say for sure, right ?). What I replied to was your assertion that, and I quote: and expressed my opinion that, in fact, that IS a manual. Anyway, what is all that fuss about manuals ? Daoist manuals are totally useless for the non-initiates of that specific lineage, they are akin to the user manual of a Toyota sedan for somebody who has never seen a car: what would one do with that ? Best YM

Kronos, with all due respect according to what you say I don't think you know the subject. The fact that the text shows some talismanic characters doesn't mean the text "is a fu" <sic>, as a matter of fact most mijue (instructional manuals) include talismanic characters. Moreover, I have not talked about 'neigong' YM

Kronos, the attached picture IS a manual. It is a typical mijue manual which are instruction manuals held by most daoists and are usually passed on to disciples. I have a collection of around 2000 of these manuals, some of which dating as early as the late Ming dynasty, but of course the manual in the picture has nothing to do with Mozi or Djiang school YM

Yes, let's clear terminology. Then the seminar is maybe "small" but still public, as it is open to strangers found on the web just like the one I posted Anyway, feel free to call it anyway you feel fit Best YM

Here you go again: seminars are ALL public, otherwise we wouldn't be discussing them here ! And, I repeat, he can charge 35,000 USD and it would not bother me either Best YM

Hello Lotus, I was just reporting on the 2008 seminar which was public just like the seminar you are proposing. If the seminar you are talking about were private it would have not been promoted on the web no? Even the price, that was 3,000 USD (for foreigners) in 2008 shows that it is the same kind of seminar, maybe there are less people now simply because it used to be mostly Chinese (paying 3,000 in local currency) so of course one can raise the same kind of money with 10 times less people if they pay in USD (i.e. If they're foreigners) For the rest I personally think everyone is entitled to sell his products at the price he feels fit, as long as there are customers ready to spend that money there is no problem. So I was not questioning the amount of money, which I don't care since I don't attend, but simply reporting some facts as some on the board were asking. YM

An average blue collar makes 1,000-2,000 RMB in China, much much less (down to 2-300 RMB) if he lives in the inner provinces, so that's a huge bunch of money. But typically Wang's seminar are charged the SAME amount in local currency for the locals, so Chinese will pay 3,900 RMB instead of 3,900 USD. And by the way typical location is NOT in fancy Hotels, actually quite the opposite, and these kinds of venues when fully booked (usually attendees are in the hundreds) are extremely cheap. EDIT: official info from the 2008 seminar here (http://hi.baidu.com/qi_gong/blog/item/b7b815fdd7cfe01e08244d71.html), chinese paid 3,000 RMB and foreigners 3,000 USD. Attendees expected up to 500 people. Full board lodging in the hostel they stayed might have been around 150 RMB/day maximum, probably much much less given that it was co-hosted by the local tourism bureau. Just FYI YM PS: was your underlined question a rhetorical one?

LOL, "taking vows" 受戒 is now a "goal" in daoism ... you made my day Happy New Year 'tianshi' YM

Here is a short summary of Wang Zhe's (Longmen founder Qiu Chuji's teacher) life and how he got to be one of the most influential daoist master of his times. I can hardly see any "strict graduation path" in there (source http://books.google.com/books?id=EXVk1tr6lEYC&printsec=frontcover&dq=daoism+handbook&hl=en&ei=uA9JTZLgKouKvgOhysH7Dw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=wang%20zhe&f=true) YM

I am talking about real knowledge, wisdom and personal growth while you are talking about standard education. Anyway, I certainly don't know much about daoist history or anything so I'd be glad to learn a little from you. For instance, as you ask what daoism I am talking about, what "graduation" did Qiu Chuji (founder of Longmen daoism, which is of course "the daoism I am talking about" given the title of the thread) got from his teacher ? At what time in his path did he "master his system" and get his "degree"? And, by the way, how how did his teacher learned ? Thanks YM

Harry, In Daoism, as well as in life, there is no such a thing as "mastering a system". Daoism is not a university where you get your degree and you can call yourself a Dr or what. It is a never-ending process of self discovery and progress, there is no end. Different masters, in this respect, may give you different approaches to that progression and lead you further along the way. Don't mistake Daoism for the martial arts, there are no "new techniques" or "secret strikes" to be learned. When a student is well along the path he will learn in many ways and from different sources, and it is historically proved that this approach works. Then again every one is entitled to see things as they fit, I was just presenting an historical fact and not an exclusive solution for all. Thanks YM