YMWong

I don't know about her father being a "daoist". I only recall her saying that she started reading Yi Jing and similar material as a kid by family influence, or something like that. I don't have any of her works with me here so I cannot comment further. Daoist (Academic) Studies have walked a long way since the early days and there are a number of scholars who are also ordained daoist in their own right. At the time, basically, only M. Saso and K. Schipper had an inside view but now there are many other cases, and Academia is now much closer to the source with field studies while in the early days it was mostly textual analysys. YM

I see where you are coming from Taomeow, but having been raised in a 'traditional' (chinese) family do not qualify anybody to speak as an insider of Daoism. I live in Hong Kong were Miss Wong was born and raised and I can confirm that being so. Again, this doesn't discredit the good writings she has produced but everything should be taken in its own perspective. A real scholar work as a scholarly resource and an actual Daoist writing as an insider source. Miss Wong's writings are nice, entertaining and informative but do not belong to any of the two categories. YM

I was not assuming anything, I was simply reading your posts and commenting. To paraphrase your reply to me, after you spoke about people you don't even know if they exist: so, in fact, I was just "illustrating a point about your teacher". Whom of course I have never seen but my comments were on the information you passed on this same board. Anything you want to add ? YM

Taomeow, I was quoting scholarly references simply because I was replying your first comment: if you want to go with pratictioners views I am totally open to that too. Eva Wong, I am told by people who have met her, is a gentle and good woman so I have great respect for her. Her works are a nice reading and a good introduction to Daoism. They are not, however, scholarly made simply because Miss Wong is not a scholar in the field of Chinese Studies and Daoism. With regard to her connection to practical Daoism and her being "from a lineage taoist" I am not sure how much you know but she started learning Daoism in the west with the late Master Moy. Master Moy's connection to actual Daoism has been discussed quite a bit since the early 80ies and only a loose connection to an organization in HK was found. Basically, neither Master Moy and of course Miss Wong were ordained daoist. The outcome of this much talk partially broke apart Master Moy's organization after his death, and Miss Wong took a distance from Master Moy and his group afterwards. You can check her biography in her early writings and the recent one for details, and she has acknowledged this fact in person various times. YM

Would you mind quoting Eva Wong (who, with all respect, is not a scholar by the way) and Yang Li as I did in my post ? "The mountain received its name due to its association with the three Mao brothers (Mao Ying, Mao Zong and Mao Gu) who alighted on its three peaks during the Han dynasty, practiced there, ascended from its peaks as trascendents, and were later venerated within the "Shangqing" tradition. Indeed the mountain has almost become synonymous with the Shangqing school, which originated there between the fourth and the fifth centuries." The Encyclopedia of Taoism Fabrizio Pregadio In the period of its splendour Maoshan had "three palaces, five temples and seventy abbeys" - as recorded in the Yuan dynasty edition of "Maoshan Chronicles". Today Maoshan has two palaces and one temple, all mostly reconstructed in the last few years, with a total of 99 residents (38 Daoists, 16 Nuns and 45 workers). Best YM

IT IS the same school, Taomeow, in that the Mao brothers are the reputed (legendary ?) ancestors of the Maoshan tradition that was then transmitted to Yang Xi by Madame Wei Huacun. I quote Isabelle Robinet (a personal friend for many years) here: "Between 367 and 370, a certain Yang Hsi was visited in the middle of the night by a group fo immortals, among whom was Lady Wei Hua Tsun who had died about 30 years previously. She was the one who revealed most of the texts of Great Purity to Yang Hsi. Lady Wei herself was said to have received these texts during a revelation involving the apparition of her master, Wang Po. According to the great Taoist theorist Tao Hung-ching (456-536), the appearance of the Mao-shan texts dates to this period. The tradition itself, however, claims that its origins go back to the Mao brothers who, in the first century BCE, retreated to the mountain that subsequently was named after them" Taoist Meditation Isabelle Robinet, Julian F. Pas, Norman J. Girardot The Maoshan tradition has been called Shangqing Pai as of the times of Yang Xi. The fictional "Maoshan" I refer to is the one depicted in many novels and movies, but it's hard for somebody who was born and raised overseas to know what I am talking about I guess. As I explained, without an actual chinese name the "School of Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is simply another way of saying "Daoism". Rotfl ! Have you ever been to Maoshan, Taomeow ? Maoshan is a small mountain, a hill actually, possibly one of the smallest "daoist mountain" in China. With its peak reaching 372 meters above see level could barely fit a few dozen temples, even in the past, let alone your "tens of thousands of temples". You guys are a funny bunch YM

Taomeow, traditional Daoism makes no gender difference in terms of giving everybody the possibility to practice and master the Daoist Arts. In chinese history only the Celestial Masters were guided, generation by generation, by the first male descendants but the school itself was open to females as well. The Maoshan tradition was in fact basically founded by a lady, Wei Huacun, so to this day many lineal descendants are ladies pratictioners. I am not sure about the "School of the Immortal Way" you refer to: what's the chinese name ? The "Immortal Way" (Xian Dao) is actually simply another way of generally calling Daoism. Maoshan (Shangqing Pai) is basically a derivative of Zhengyi (Orthodox One) tradition and during its history it has always been very much connected with both Zhengyi and the Lingbao Schools, all very orthodox in nature. The impression of the common people about Maoshan as a place of only sorcerers and magic, exorcists and the likes has been very much created by the novels first and then by movies. Most of those based on spirits and ghosts always depict a "Maoshan" wizard fighting with the evil ghosts. But that, as I said, is mostly fictional. Practices as explained by the KL group go in China under the name of "Red Head" or "unorthodox tradition". Masters belonging to these traditions have existed for a very long time and are the direct derivative of the early shamans and mediums in China. They are not addressed as "Daoshi" (Daoist) but they are "Fashi" or "Shigong". While both categories overlap a little as they both do, thou in a different way, healing and services for the leaving only (orthodox) Daoists also perform for the death and do the classical rites of renewal. The trasmission in the two groups is also very different. While Daoists are ordained, receive a register, list of prohibitions and take vows the Red Head are taught in a system of 'brotherhood' instead of a father/son relationship. The main difference, however, lies in the fact that "Red Head" continues the tradition of the shamans of the old times in which they practice the become a "medium" for higher energy/beings/spirits to go through them. Daoists, on the other side, work toward the attainment of emptyness because in the Daoist Tradition the way to reach "Unity with Dao" (the goal of practice) requires that every image, every spirit, everything is *burned* and distroyed so that the pratictioner is totally empty and the Dao can then dwell inside her. Best YM

Chris, since your reply is addressed to "the group" I hope you don't mind me jumping in again. The "good Maoshan teacher" you ask people to look for, I am afraid, would blow out all of your dreams. Instead of asking others to do so, why don't you find one yourself ? And I mean a REAL Maoshan teacher from a real lineage not a 'self-made' one with a six dollars hat bought on the web. And before that, how can you speak for the Maoshan tradition ? To become an apprentice, let alone a master, of any of the Three Mountains Alliance (two of which Max claim to belong to <sic> ) one has to receive the Registers, make the vows and take the Prohibitions (most of which Max would be breaking by the way he acts) so anyone with a minumum knowledge of Daoism can easily understand the situation. Such a shame YM EDIT: By the way, I am glad for those that are happy with Max teachings. All is good in that respect. The "converted" by Derren Brown are even more happy to have found their way to God. I am just sick and tired of hearing you guys speaking "on behalf" of a tradition you clearly have no clue about.

May I ask who are "they" (saying) in your quote ? Thanks YM

You can buy one over the web for less then 6 USD http://auction1.taobao.com/auction/item_de...d9c056cf5.jhtml Take care YM

Yours or mine ? YM

Chris, the day you see a video of my mom in a brothel and read articles about her night job I'd be delighted to hear what you have to say. Before that, and before you have the faintest idea if she is still alive or not, I am afraid yours would not be an "outside opinion" but a work of fantasy. Which you can keep and hold on to, of course YM

I see where you are coming from but please let me explain. I am not for an "uninformed" opinion of course. In this case Chris gives his *inside* opinion and Patrick his *outside* opinion, both informed by their vision of the matter. Chris in fact has tried the practice so his "information" comes from inside, so to speak. Patrick has seen a video and has read various comments. He has therefore an outside information. So they are both informed, thou in a different way. Inside information is usually better, with this I agree, but it can be tricky. That's why as I said they have both pros and cons. Let me ask you. Who do you think is in a better position to understand what's going on here: those sitting and experiencing the matter or us watching the video ? http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=-DylNVUN_3I&...feature=related Best YM

Hello Mantra, hopefully you don't believe it is just two or three ... (so you know where I stand) ... simply that most of those that feel there is not much in there (KL/Max) do not necessarily feel compelled to try and break the dreams of the believers. You see, there is not much difference between you and Patrick in that you have tried Max, found it excellent (with your experience and to your standard), and are sincerely trying to spread the news "this is the best that can happen to You: please try !". Patrick is doing the same thing. He feels that Max is a con artist (with his experience and to his standard) and is sincerely trying to warn people not to fall on "his tricks". No difference. The fact that you have invested time and done the practice doesn't put you in a better perspective. As a matter of fact, from another point of view, that's the worst perspective. Both perspective are good, actually, none is better than the other as both have pro's and con's. Peace YM

Hello Cat, I think you speak without direct experience as what you say is quite far from the way we experience it. Some of those "creatures" are huge like a mountain and powerful, they can crush you in a second. Those of pure yin can hardly effect *our space* but many are yang in nature and we are like little ants to some of them. They don't necessarily care much about us but, just like we slaps away mosquitoes that disturb us, they can do quite a bit of damage. And that's regardless of the disposition of your heart ! YM

Good posts ! Yes, I have experienced discussing with fellow pratictioners and confirmed the exact same *vision*. I am not sure if somebody with a different backgrounf would see things different but I guess that's possible of course. There are deities shared by Daoism and Tantrism that are depicted quite different in the two agiographies. I would say, however, that both share similar "main tracts" and that those would be retained in any case. It is true that reality, and what's beyond it, is a projection of our minds. There are however some basic tracts that go beyond what we see as 'physical appearence' that are the very basic components of things - their basic substance. Those, I think, remain the same. YM Some Daoist schools koujue (oral secret transmission) explain that "the color of black is deep purple". Nice that you mention so and good for you, you must be quite well developed in your path. YM

Most people don't mention this *other world* which simply mean few people have practiced enough and reached the ability to see it. That's why I replied to the original post on this thread, happy that there are still some decent practictioners out there. Now most people seem to be only attracted by superpowers and not by the ability to see the world as it is ... Chinese (and Daoist) history dwelve into these "being" with great details which shows how people were much more advanced in the past. Ko Hung, one of the greatest alchemist of Daoist history, has full chapters about *entering the mountains* to gather Medicines for the Pill and gives vivid descriptions of these beings and how to see them, how to protect ourselves from them et. etc. His main work which takes his sobriquet Baopuzi (Master who Embraces Semplicity) has been translated in english in full and his parts various times so if you are interested you can get a copy. Another reference who comes to mind is the Shanhai Jing (Classic of Mountains and Seas) who is considered a classic on mythology by modern scholars who do not understand that those are not fantasies but reality. That has been also translated in english various times. I don't know enough about western *mythology* to make learned comparison but I guess many phenomenon might be related. YM

Great ! It's a blessing that people like that are still around and you have been lucky to have met her After meditating with some success for a few years *eyes* becomes different and the world start to look VERY different, not only during practice/meditation but all the times. There are A LOT of *creatures* like the dragons and all are 'visible' for those with the right eyes. They are traditionally divided in various categories as they *live* at "different levels": there are shen, ling and gui. Dragons belong to the 'ling' species. I am of the opinion, however, that western dragons do not belong to that same category but they are simply extinct animals. YM

YM

From the US you have to switch in Tokio, Seoul or Singapore from where you can fly direct to Hangzhou YM http://www.hzairport.com/index_en.jsp

Hi Vortex, Jinhua is a two hours train ride south of Hangzhou. You can also take a bus or a cab, which will be cheap and fast YM

USD 3,000 all inclusive of food and lodging YM

I would also like to add, as some might not be too familiar with the terminology, that "closed door disciple" (關門弟子) means the LAST disciple of a certain master after whom he does not accept anymore - he has therefore 'closed (his) door'. Every master has therefore ONLY ONE 'closed door' disciple and it is an important position in a line, which usually starts with the 'main disciple' (開門弟子, the disciple who 'opens the door') then a number of disciples (some masters have many of them) and last the 'closed door'. Some people in the west seem to confuse a 'closed door' with an 'indoor (inside-the-door) disciple' (入門弟子). This is a different classification and it refers to the close-ness to one's teacher who accepts disciples at various level (inside-the door, inside-the-room etc.). In any case, a disciple is usually taught very differently than a simple 'student' (學生) and is supposed to receive full transmission. In the master/disciple relationship there are rights and duties on both sides, it is a profound kind of relationship that few westerners fully understand and are ready to commit to. YM

I don't think this is the correct reading. After the "Qigong Hot" period of the 80ies and the consequent crack-down by the government whomever wanted to survive had to get close connection with the government. In that respect, ANYTHING must be approved by the government in China especially when it involves the gathering of crowds. In this case the Religious Bureau is usually involved, at local level. Consider that the Hainan meeting involved about 300 people and that for the coming (November) seminar they expect to have 600. It is always working in the line of fire. Only recently, last year, some CASS members have been firing at Wang Liping and this is not a good sign. CASS (Chinese Academy of Social Sciences) is one of the official arms of the Goverment for the control of these activities and they have IMMENSE power. Just get a few members to agree that what you do is not "in the interests of the people of China" and you are done. The seminar is simply not going to be held, as WLP confirmed, and was probably a 'hope' or a plan DV had in mind that he now has managed to blow out. He is also not a disciple, let alone a 'closed door' one, as confirmed to me over the phone by two of his students last week. After all, everyone has the 'master' he deserves ... YM

Just as a reference - for those interested - the forecoming seminar by Wang Liping in China will cost RMB 3000 (~USD 430) for ten days and that's inclusive of lessons, food and lodging. By the way, last year retreat in Hainan was below USD 300. YM