YMWong

YM

The 'mind' in chinese is the 'heart' not your brain/imagination If you think 'the mind does it all and is everything' try to jump out of the window and begin to fly: can you do that ? If you want to do that, you need the develop wings first, then use your 'heart/mind' to move your wings in the proper way. If we were born with wings, like the birds, we would all be flying already - would we ? YM EDIT: Needless to say, the body has 'qi' flowing around so if any practice can make that 'qi' flow better and more balanced of course that could bring positive results. In this sense, getting an acupuncture treatment, doing Taiji or growing flowers - when done with the right mindset/heart - can all be useful. But, to get back to my 'flying' example before, these practices can only lead to 'walk better' which of course is a good thing

No, that's not the case. "Imaginary methods brings imaginary results" we say. False 'qi flow' is very common it seems and that depends on the fact that the pratictioner did not receive proper teaching/transmission. The deeper one gets into that path, the further he/she gets from reality so - yes - SENSATIONS become stronger but they are - again - generated by the mind. The mind is, of course, a strange place to be so I understand that they can bring some kind of 'health' or 'happiness'. But that has nothing to do with proper practice. If 'qi' is not properly generated and collected there is nothing to work on, nothing to make "become massive or powerful" I am afraid. Proper training brings changes that are perfectly visible and touchable. For somebody with the proper experience they are visible to the eye, if one has less experience touching is necessary. But those changes are REAL, very very obvious like the difference between a flat tire and one properly inflated. Touch the belly of somebody whose dantian is filled up and you'll know, touch that of somebody who can free/disengage it and you'll be surprise (get ready to fall on the floor). Than try to do the same to any of those who 'imagine' things and we THEN can talk the same language. 'Imagination' has its space in proper Daoist practice but that is used only after some hard work is done and certain things have been properly achieved. YM

Since Longmen seems to be in fashion these days on this board, here is what its founder had to say about 'shen', 'qi' and their relationship: http://www.qiuchuji.org/index2.php?type=showtopic&id=23 夫神為子，氣為母，氣經目為淚，經鼻為膿，經舌為津，經外為汗，經內為血，經骨為髓，經腎為精。 氣全則生，氣亡則死，氣盛則壯，氣衰則老。 常使氣不散，則如子之有母；氣散則如子喪父母，何恃何怙？ roughly 'Shen' is the son, 'qi' is the mother, 'qi' passing by the eyes it is the tears, passing by the nose it is the mucus, passing by the tongue it is the saliva, passing outside it is the sweat, passing inside it is the blood, passing by the bones it is the marrow, passing by the kidneys it is 'jing' (sperm/essence) When 'qi' is complete there is life, when 'qi' is depleted there is death, when 'qi' is abundant there is strength, when 'qi' is weak there is old age Always preserving 'qi' without loosing it, it is like a son having a mother, loosing 'qi' it is like a son loosing his father and mother, what can he relies on ? YM

Yes, he lived during the Warring States around 400-300 BCE. My reference to his "semi-mythical" status was more about him being the "human with a bird head" that we see on certain tombs carving. Here he is checking a long line of patients YM

Yes Ken, I think that's the standard translation and while both terms has been used interchangeably at times, they have actually different meanings and different origin/history. The "mai/channel" concept is older and said to be developed by Bian Que, a semi-mithical healer of high antiquity. 'Channels' were discovered by actual practice/test on the human body and the concept is very much linked to the meaming of 'qi/energy' which flows through them. As a matter of fact, there is a direct link in the old bronze characters between the two characters 'qi' and 'mai'. The 'jingluo/meridian' concept is later and said to be derived from Huangdi (the "Yellow" Emperor) and refers more to the complex system of meridians that crosses our body, as in fact the meridians on the earth. I think to get a good feel of the difference one should think about the fact that when the chinese doctor "takes the pulse" and make diagnosis the traditional way, he is "taking the MAI". Again we see the link with the actual 'qi' flow. "Taking the JINGLUO" wouldn't make any sense in this respect. YM

I was not shooting but trying to help, if not helping yourself maybe all other readers by giving another point of view beyond your clearly uninformed opinions. Feel free to take the help or pass, I don't care YM

I fail to see the relevance of your Yijing (translation) quotation to Daoism. Junzi is a specific word utilized mainly by Confucians with a specific meaning, and that is NOT another way to say "daoist". Not even close. "A man of Dao" is not relevant to Daoism either. The concenpt of Dao is not exclusive to Daoism and, I am sure you know, the earlier meaning of "Daoren" (Man/Woman of Dao) was that of a buddhist monk. By the way, Junzi means 'SON of the (feudal) lord' [jun = lord / zi = son]. Women generally held a very specific place in old chinese society, which was more related to family and rasing kids then cultivation or official positions***, and it is obvious that for a 'sage ruler' terminology the choice of the character 'zi' (son - as in junzi) was adopted. After all, as in the example above, when 'man and women' was implied often the term 'ren' (person - as in Daoren / Man/Woman of Dao) was employed. Only during the Ming dynasty Taizu emperor promulgated an official "Regulations for the Appointment of Women Mandarin" and by that time the term 'nv junzi' (woman junzi) was created. If the original term, as you imply, meant 'Man and Woman' why would they feel the need to create the term 'woman junzi' ? YM *** There are of course cases in history but they are extremely uncommon in numbers and certainly not the norm EDIT: some more ad-hoc quotations for your reference WRT the confucian meaning see => The fragile scholar: power and masculinity in Chinese culture By Geng Song Edition: illustrated Published by Hong Kong University Press, 2004 WRT earlier meaning see => The book of changes (Zhouyi): a Bronze Age document By Richard Rutt Translated by Richard Rutt Edition: illustrated Published by Routledge, 2002

While one may agree with what you are saying I fail to see how this has anything to do with what you quote i.e. - junzi and daoist be a totally different kind of animal - junzi being a term referring to man/male only YM EDIT: by the way, your second category "and ones you can't know that are daoist, don't wear "daoist" tags on them, and are as daoist as Dao itself" have the same characteristics of the first in terms of "lineage and doctrine": they just don't have it printed on their tee-shirt

Junzi and 'daoist' don't go well together and certainly are not the same thing. Moreover, Junzi cannot be a 'she' as the noun itself implies a masculine gender. I am afraid you must invent a new title for that YM

LOL LOL I guess we should really believe him now, right ? LOL So now he is all about "cultivating virtue and wisdom" and while waiting for wisdom to catch up he finds the time to entertain people with the same old stuff: http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/h...ubsection/ID/16 Foundation Training Seminars this year will take place in the grand city of Rome, Italy! XSZ&SZG1 - Xing Shen Zhuang & Sheng Zheng Gong 1 June 20 - July 4, 2009 No Prerequisites, Beginners welcome SZG2&NG1 - Sheng Zheng Gong 2 & Nei Gong 1 -Prerequisite: XSZ&SZG1 August 1 - August 15, 2009 NG2 - Nei Gong 2 -Prerequisite: SZG2 & NG1 August 16 - August 31, 2009 Seminar Tuition for each course is 4000 Euro. 50% Deposit to be given in advance. YM

Yes, Union with the Great Dao is always achieved through emptyness. What may differ in place and time, hence the development of various schools and various systems, is the way to get there. - for a ritualist like a Zhengyi priest, who performs for society/people AND for himself, it may work through envisioning his bodies deities and burning them all in front of an altar to finally achieve emptyness and 'union with Great Dao'. - for an alchemist like a Quanzhen priest, who is more into self-practice to then spread it to the masses, it may work through quite meditation and sitting in forgetfullness to - again - achieve emptyness and 'union with Great Dao'. These are NOT chinese cultural side path but THE CORE of REAL DAOISM. YM

ditto, what Yamu said YM

I am not a buddhist so I would leave considerations about buddhism to those with knowledge I don't have. *Goal* in Daoism is "to be One with Dao" (yu Dao he Zhen) which is striven for by means of emptyness. It is only in emptyness that 'space' is made for Dao to dwell inside. The vision of the body and the world as a complex 'energetic' system is not a daoist thing but more belonging to the vaste chinese cultural background in which Daoism fluorished. In this sense, it is natural that daoism inherited this background and integrated it into its system. YM

This is not a reduction but a profound misunderstanding, at least a misunderstanding of chinese daoism. It is true, however, that this 'energy pursuit' and 'look-for-power' seems to be a common theme with 'western *daoists*' but any orthodox daoist in the East would laugh at these stuff YM

There is no "Miaotong Dao" or "Leishan Dao" in Daoism, those are just made up for the gullible YM

Unfortunately, "it works" has different meaning to different people. See how Mr. Mak's *FU* works to destroy swine flu ... on somebody who doesn't have it ! Most people into the 'spiritual' have an urge to *achieve* something, *feel* the qi, opening the *channels* ... and guess what: THEY GET IT ! But these are, usually, only tricks of the mind. Needless to say, one can say 'who cares if it's a trick of the mind, I am happy with the result' - to each their own I guess. For one, when results are the subject of the discussion, I am more interested in those that can be seen/felt/measured BY OTHERS. Say one has a cancer that is scanned by medical machines with precision and somebody can make it disappear, with results that - again - can be seen with that machine ~~~ THOSE are objective results. YM

You are right, of course, but I am afraid that today - especially in the West - one in a million has the chance to study under a master of that kind. All the other 999,999 are learning - at best - with teachers that make of the 'bickering and comparison' their bread and butter YM

The world is full of snake-oil salesman like Verdesi, Max and many others ~ it has always been and always will be. They cover a need in society just like the prostitutes (no pun intended of course) and as long as the need is there, and of course it will always be, they will be there with their products. WE ALL should consider thou that EVERYONE of us *thinks* he is on the right side, lucky enough to have found the 'real-deal' master bla bla bla ... Most of us, however, are studying with our own 'verdesi' --- we simply don't realize it looking out the moon from the bottom of our well. YM

There are hundreds of Daoist Sects so it is useless to simply make a list. Of the schools mentioned by Stig, only Longmen Pai is a derivative (and not a subsect) of Quanzhen. Best YM

Longmen Sect is of course a derivative of Quanzhen. Of the seven main sects deriving from Quanzhen, Longmen is certainly the most widespread and most probably *one of* the most widespread in China and overseas. Its founder was one of the most influential Masters during the (short lived) Yuan dynasty and a close "advisor" to Gengis Khan and helped spare thousands of lives during the Mongol's trip to the West. 'Private' Daoists are from various sects and, for a reason or another, have decided to remain private. Sexual practices were common as early as the Han dynasty about 2000 years ago but were forbidden in 'orthodox daoism' around 400 a.C. by Kou Qianzhi. Needless to say, a few schools (really a few) did not follow the revision of the time and continued practicing so-called 'dual cultivation'. With the change is society, values and the role of women in society these practices are less and less common and they are almost gone now. I am not sure what you mean with 'shen reports' so I can't comment of that one. Best YM No Longmen Pai is one of the schools deriving from Quanzhen. EVERY school has 'closed door' teachings and 'open door' teachings, but it is not the school to be open/closed but the teachings. That is common for each and every sect. Every master teaches and lectures to maybe hundreds/thousands but chooses a few disciples that are taught the 'core' which is usually referred to as 'heart transmission'. Longmen, like many other sects, does not have a 'standard bearer' so there is not one lineage/branch more important than others. In this sense Wang Liping is *simply* one of the many masters in his generation and there are many, many others. Needless to say, no one is equally skilled but that's another story. To each their own. YM

Hello WT, the attempt to categorize Daoist Schools under the two banners of Quanzhen and Zhengyi is in fact an early one, dating from late Song early Yuan when the Quanzhen gained prominance in China under the Mongols and then kept its strength in the Ming under the Han again. It is, however, more an 'organized simplification' than a factual division. Since very early on Daoist Schools were many and varied, with practices and believes so different that at times collided in history. In VERY general terms, in any case, Zhengyi's kind of schools are ritualistic in nature and their adherents do not live a monastic life, they have kids (and in fact Zhengyi's transmission is a familiar one) and family. They have a complex and organic system developed through almost 200 years of history. Quanzhen's like schools are monastic, their adherents often live in temples, are celibate and observe strict vegetarian diet and very strict buddhist-like rules. These sects are more sincretic in nature and in fact mix buddhism, confucianism and daoism under the same roof. Consider for instance that Quanzhen adherents are required to study and recite a number of Classics some of which buddhist (like the Heart Sutra) or confucians (like the Classic of Filial Piety). YM

Daozhen, most Daoists in China now are vegetarian only because the Government sort of placed Quanzhen Daoism above all other schools, when Daoism was resurrected with China's opening in the late 70ies (early 80ies). Actually only a minor part of Daoists, traditionally, are strictly vegetarian while most of them eat *everything* thou according to some rules ~ so for instance they are vegetarian in certain period of the year or following certain specific practices. Daoism in Wudang follow the national trend so of course the monastic order Quanzhen, together with its derivatives and mainly the Lungmen sect, are the most popular nowadays. When China opened its doors the Government decided to categorize all daoist schools under two orders: Quanzhen and Zhengyi ~ so in fact most of the daoists were made to 'follow' rules and regulation they did not belong to. Moreover, the Central Government realized that Quanzhen - being monastic and 'quiet' in nature - would be easier to handle so priority was given to Quanzhen and derivatives. Those who did not agree with the policy have been practicing in private ever since, so you won't find them at any temple, daoist 'meetings' etc. All others have accepted the policy so most of them had to "re-organize" their Daoist life in accordance to the new regulations. I am not saying here this is necessarily a bad or negative thing, of course, as historically speaking studying with various masters under different schools in one's daoist life was the norm. The difference, however, is that this time it was not a real personal choice YM

I thought this one was enough a context ... Best YM

Kathy, the "Golden Flower" classic putative writer is Lu Dongping and NOT Wang Chongyang Best YM