stirling

It would make sense to include accuracy of quotes and attributions in that equation, wouldn't it? Misquoting seems pretty lazy when there is an actual quote tool built into the board, doesn't it? A misquote where the actual quote is literally inches away would garner an "F" in my estimation.

.., again, what do you really want to achieve? There are tried and true paths for this kind of knowledge.

Yes, please.

What I said was: ...but yes, meditation itself, even outside of retreat can be dangerous from a mental health perspective. Meditation in therapeutic dosages WILL dig up your obscurations, emotional/psychological damage and much more. In fact, meditation IS psychedelic. You will see visions, have time distortions, unitive experiences and much more. In small doses it can make you more calm and less reactive, but in doses intended to be transformative it can cause significant cognitive dissonance at the very least. It isn't a bug, it is a feature. Retreats are where the rubber meets the road. As a meditator of over 30 years, with many retreats under my belt I have witnessed many people spontaneously burst into tears next to me as great traumas have arisen and often resolved, have to leave the retreat, or even have realizations. To learn more about the dangers of meditation and retreats some judicious reading here might illuminate: https://www.cheetahhouse.org/ I would appreciate it greatly if you could please stop assuming there is some malicious motive or intent in my posts. If you would like to address your concerns I would be happy to speak to you directly via messaging. _/\_

Not really any more dangerous that going on a meditation retreat or working with the most direct practices. Real, transformative spiritual practice digs up our most protected and ancient pain, attachment, aversion, and leads to a "death" of sorts - it inherently includes risk, and inevitably creates some difficulties for the practitioner. Realization necessarily breaks all of our closely held beliefs about who "we" are what "reality" is, any clinging to what you thought was "true" or "real" has to be let go of.

Aren't entheogens a fairly common cornerstone to shamanic ritual? They were in my experience, but I was admittedly only ever a dabbler. I know a couple of people who have had entheogens as part of their "path" or even the moment of illumination, myself included. While it wasn't part of the moment when understanding dawned for me, it was part of the story. I wouldn't discount it entirely, myself. These substances CAN be quite beneficial in softening or even removing conceptual concretions of the "self" when there are experiences of "unity"/no-self or other/etc. The danger they pose is primarily to those who already have intense grasping to "self" or underdeveloped and weak "self" to begin with, like those with more profound mental health issues such as schizophrenia. Of course, these substances can be unpredictable and have mixed success without some screening and supervision, and aren't really necessary in most cases. Whatever method or lack thereof that works for one person very likely won't work for another. It can happen in countless ways - for some there will be the sound of a pebble on a pot, for others it might happen while in a dentist's waiting room, or while skydiving, or even after ingesting Lysergic acid diethylamide. Most are never going to worry, or need to worry, about abstract conceptual underpinnings as they are entirely dualistic in nature and have no real bearing on the complete realization.

I'll just say that combining entheogens, or medically treatable mental illness with meditation (especially on retreat) is asking for trouble and should be carefully monitored by a mental health professional.

Of course... all of them caught in the delusion that there is increase or decrease. It is entirely possible to understand if there is a desire to gnow.

What I say is unimportant. If you are curious you can find it out for yourself. That is the beauty of practice.

Have you ever truly been in control of physical impulses? Emotional impulses? Emotions and thoughts arise in the same way anything else does. Trees, the wind, calculators and persian carpets appear and disappear, arising and passing moment to moment in consciousness. No "self" controls these things. They are impermanent. Almost everything is. One thing isn't. "Heart energies"? They are construction of the mind, like all cosmologies, systems, levels, phases, paths, etc. Enlightenment is a moment when the unity/emptiness/dao is realized. It changes the understanding of everything you could imagine. It undoes the idea that you are a separate person that acts in space and in time. It is the realization that there is nothing else to do or realize. It is an understanding that dissolves all old assumptions and ideas about reality. Interestingly this space of unity/emptiness is available, though attenuated, to ANY meditator who has become skilled in allowing the mind to become still. It is worth finding a teacher who understands it if you are curious to understand it.

This is the essence Tommy, yes. "We" cannot manhandle the mind, we must just drop our control of it. It is like a bar of wet soap - you can hold it and let it rest in your open hand and it will stay there... still, BUT if you grasp at it it will shoot out of your hand. The more you allow for stillness to well up of its own accord the more frequently it will.

BTW Neirong (from the site) posts here. Why not read their posts and get a feel for what kind of teacher, and what kind of wisdom and knowledge they might have?

What is your goal for your practice? What do you want out of it? I have looked through most of website out of curiosity. In general I would say that teachings intended to get at the heart of what reality is, and TRUE transformation are relatively simple (but requiring some regular and dedicated work) and available everywhere, free. Teachers are also generally free, though some will take dana when offered to them. Most are looking for your dedication and intention to truly understand, not your money.

What system is this in reference to?

Whatever practice you are doing, cherishing, holding out as THE way in... isn't. What you are looking isn't the words, or the movements, the visualizations, the breath... any "thing". What you are looking for is what is in between all of those "things". What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". I requires learning to stop doing.

Good catch! Unlearning, or letting doing fall away might be more accurate.

I like presence as a term. Awareness might be my favorite. Not keen on Source, as (to me) it implies something separate from anything else. Worlds? Other than here/now?

Yes, "source"/emptiness/Dao is unchanging and permanent, but it isn't a separate thing. If your training has gotten to the point where you can see it, or if you have permanent insight into it, you realize that, while all impermanence arises from that which is permanent, "source"/emptiness/Dao can ONLY be seen in impermanent appearances. They are one and the same, inseparable. Emptiness IS Form, Form Emptiness. Time, space and self are intellectual constructs born of a misinterpretation about what we see in the world. It is obvious in the moment of insight, when time, space, and self fall apart.

I think I would like these "they" very much!

Just as it is no-thing, it is also ALL things. Everything that arises in consciousness (thoughts/feelings/etc.) and everything that arises in the phenomenal world (birds, trees, houses, cabbages, pants, etc.) are empty/no-thing/"source". Form and emptiness (source and no-thing) are the same, inextricable.

When I say easiest, what I mean is that the mind is more easily stilled in this position. This has been known for thousands of years, and is the reason it is featured in meditation practices in most Eastern traditions. It may be physically hard, but there are plenty of modifications that make it possible for most people. I don't believe I said it was a requirement. - It seems like something I have done or said has made you take exception to me personally. I would welcome a personal message from you, if you would like to clear it up. _/\_

I'm not sure who you are aiming this at, but I don't believe in, and haven't ever suggested anyone force anything. The actual intention is to allow, and approach with curiosity. The thinking mind naturally runs out of steam eventually. There are some practices that people use to get INTO meditation, but they shouldn't be mistaken for the meditation itself. Think of them like crutches... when you can walk it is fine to set them aside. When you start to notice you have dropped watching your breath, for example, most will be upset that they lost count or focus. This is actually a signal to start being present in the spaciousness that opens up when the method has dropped.

The goal is really to bring stillness to ALL activities. It is easiest to start with sitting meditation, but a simple walking meditation would be next, or try chopping vegetables or hand washing dishes. Driving and walking in nature are also easy places to start. I have many of my student set a timer for every waking hour to remind them to stop and reestablish stillness for a few minutes. This eventually makes you start noticing that stillness establishes itself sometimes, which makes sense since it is always underneath the thinking mind.

Yes, this is how it goes. Eventually you notice that there are gaps when the mind is still. At that point, my recommendation would be to start noticing those... becoming curious, but not grasping at them. When thoughts arise, do not engage them with a second thought, but rather just allow them to be as they are - a single thought arising and then fading into silence. Eventually you learn to identify with awareness rather than your thoughts, and can more reliably watch them pass with less effort. Yes. The mind is actually that stillness... the thinking process of thought leading to thought leading to thought is because we feed the process. It is the engine by which "self" is generated. The intellect is just a tool, is NOT the "self". It is fine when used for its purpose, but is generally not necessary. This is something you discover more and more the longer you meditate. Chanting, like watching the breath, is a way IN, not the meditation itself. It is fine to start out like that, but once you realize that your mind has become still and thoughts are not arising, allow the method to drop away. Have your intention be resting in the stillness, and watching as thoughts and other sensations just arise and pass from awareness. All of that sounds like the way of a Bodhisattva! Gratefulness is generally in short supply, however.

I agree, the DDJ is a prime example of just how simple transformation can be. I am surprised by how many have managed to complicate it, add different cultivations and aspirations to such a clean and simple document. You know when you encounter the real deal when even different translations cannot damage the stainless quality of the dharma contained within. _/\_