stirling

While not complete, some insight into this particular point can come with everyday cessation in meditation. It isn't hard to demonstrate what this means to most students who have managed to become somewhat familiar with learning to become a witness to their thoughts instead of being their thoughts. I find most students can come to understand to some degree, with direct pointing, what "emptiness" (or the Dao) is and begin questioning the constructed nature of their worlds. Seeing all things as "buddha nature" is a fairly common Mahayana practice that you don't have to be any kind of expert to do.... again with some ability to find cessation in meditation practice. Yes, agreed, one is trapped in appearances, but any decent teacher is going to be showing the student how to recognize this and "wake up" over and over again in the moment they occupy. Realizing you are "asleep" is big part of waking up, but so is getting some taste of what "awake" IS. Being an immortal enlightened "person" is ultimately an oxymoron, from my perspective. Emptiness/Dao is immortal. I think that is the only "thing" that is.

I worked for 20 years in the Nyingma tradition (Dudjom Rinpoche lineage) and can confirm that some of the old school energy channel stuff isn't taught in the West, for the most part. There is actually a reason for that. Thank you for your practice. _/\_ It isn't though. It becomes immediately clear when insight dawns. There is ultimately no person to enlighten, no practice that does it, and no separation between "Buddha" mind and ours. On a practical level, every time your mind is still you are actualizing this truth. The 4th Noble Truth is cessation - not cessation in the future, but cessation here/now, with no-self. There is no difference between the mind in formless jana and enlightened mind. In Zen, resting in that formless nature... cessation, is "practice". There are no metaphors about daily life that apply to a knowledge that has no time, space or "self". It doesn't make sense because it isn't explicable by our subject/object language convention. There IS no "future" you. What you are is inseparable from Dependent Origination, not a "part" of it, inextricable from a seamless whole. Yes, causes and conditions arise in a relative sense, but that always happens NOW as part of a fictional timeline. The past and future only ever exist as thoughts happening now. Where is your story about your practice history when your mind is still? Where is the "self" you believe you are? Where are the past and the future?

I don't assume anything about you at all. I responded to you based on your words and my understanding. If I have insulted you I apologize. Belief is not interesting to me. I am interested in direct experiential gnosis. As you say, people believe in all sorts of things. ... don't forget the Mahayana, Vajrayana and Zen teachings.... oh, and almost all historical "spiritual" teachings.Was there really a historical Buddha or Jesus? I don't think it matters, and, at this point, it is unlikely that we will ever know. Is it factual or mythological? I think this is the wrong question. In my opinion what one should be concerned about it whether or not those teachings are TRANSFORMATIVE, once put into earnest practice for a few months. My experience is that most non-dual traditions contain enough perspective and simplicity of practice at their core to be transformative, and I have verified that to my personal satisfaction as well.

Nihilism is the belief that life is meaningless. Life as an individual IS ultimately meaningless, but not at all in the way one would imagine, and certainly not in a nihilistic fashion. The Advaita Vedanta system believes in the "Self" - NO-self is Buddhism. Only experiential knowledge is proof, though it is possible to point to emptiness where the student has a few months of decent meditation under their belt. It isn't based in myth my friend, it is based on thousands of years of realization. There are enlightened beings all over the place, if you care and you are paying attention. If you live near a decent sized town there will be a few even there that could point you in the right direction. I know a number in my town. If the teachings were nonsense, why would anyone bother. Why do you bother with Qigong?

I am referring to: Dao, emptiness, Buddha nature, non-duality, "Self", etc. Define it? There are thousands of ways to do that, but today it looks like the simple, still awareness that underlies all experiencing, having no center, "self", time, or space.

My answer is being answered from a Buddhist perspective. That might be the philosophy of cultivation traditions, but it is not shared in Buddhism, generally speaking. In Mahayana, Vajrayana, and Zen Buddhism it is understood that one is always ALREADY enlightened, but lacks the insight to see that it is so. From the perspective of enlightened mind NO practice actually illuminates the student, they merely make one "accident prone".

Such practices don't really feature in Zen Buddhism, aside maybe from Hara practice. The insight that one is looking for in Buddhism is a realization about the nature of reality. I have confidence that qi, kundalini, etc., are better left to do as they are wont, rather than be unskillfully manipulated.

In Soto Zen the stick is used to "suddenly awaken" a student, but few American temples do so anymore. I suppose it could possibly be effective, but I don't use that technique with my students. The problem with some traditions is that their "skillful means" don't evolve with societal changes. What might have worked in feudal Japan might not be what is best for a student in todays day and age. There are plenty of other opportunities and techniques, and an experienced and intuitive teacher could choose something much more personal and effective in the moment. _/\_ - I haven't found that there is any issue with mixing techniques where the intention is awakening/enlightenment. I have no trouble mixing techniques where it is efficacious. I will do whatever I can to help precipitate awakening in truly committed student.

Hello Davey, and welcome to the Newcomer Corner, and Daobums in general!

An example, and your explanation of your position on it might be helpful. Vipassana practices can precipitate a "dark night", but not always. The "dark night", in this case, part of the process, not an accident, caused by the method in which emotional material gets churned up by the meditation modalities in play. The "dark night" isn't a feature of other types of Buddhism which have different practices and whose models do not include this progression. Still, meditation IS intended to bring up your emotional obscurations. They are material for great realization. This is the way out. Such things are in most of the world religions.

Again... I think you are conflating two things - Buddhism and Buddhists. Buddhism doesn't have any kind of built in system of abuse. Also, I want to point out that many Buddhist traditions allow monks and teachers to be married... no sexual suppression. I'm absolutely not putting anyone or anything on a pedestal here, merely hoping to bring some clarity to the discussion. Yes, Buddhists are humans, like humans everywhere, and in all traditions - flawed. Buddhism is just a conceptual framework of practices and teachings, like any other system, including those of author of the book you are excited about. You seem to have strong feelings about this. Are you coming from a situation where you were abused? If so, I am very sorry to hear that, if that is the case.

There are two layers here that you are conflating: 1. Working with the "self"/ego. You have to have a fairly healthy, developed sense of self before taking non-dual spiritual practice any further. For those with deep rooted trauma and clinging/aversion to their trauma the aid of a psychologist and/or psychiatrist can be pivotal 2. Seeing through the illusory nature of self and all seemingly separate phenomena. When the "self" is stable and trauma isn't so raw it is possible to do practices intended to point out the illusory nature of these structures. This is a gross misunderstanding of the intent and practices. Buddhism doesn't suppress or annihilate anything. Practices in Buddhism are pointers to a different way of seeing and understanding the same reality you already exist in, from a very different understanding. Nothing is ever forced... it would be counter productive. Spirituality and ego work can make our experience of the world and "ego" much smoother. Those who take their practice deeper will realize that the spaciousness of "silent mind" is actually much more than they ever realized.

So, the meditation I would recommend for this wouldn't be a particular technique, but rather just allowing the mind to come to a stop... stillness... brief periods where there are no thoughts and just experiencing, even if only for moments at a time. Is this something you have familiarity with? Speaking for myself, I was constantly seeking meaning and purpose, and better still some sort of tangible master plan that gave the "universe" order. I KNEW there was something to be understood. I collected theories from Eastern religion, Magick, Science and more, tied together the multiplicity of synchronicities I experienced, and tried to bridge them into something cohesive, but I was never satisfied with it fully. It never allowed me to completely relax. I never believed it... and this is the problem. A belief is never reality. We concoct beliefs when we don't truly KNOW. As it turns out, there IS something, but it is the opposite of what our time, space, "I" belief system convinces us is real. It is literally beyond belief. It is experiential knowledge can't be forgotten, and never leaves you, once seen. It obliterates all stories about how things are, always bringing us back to the moment we occupy... THIS moment. Ultimately nothing really incarnates, except as a concept of the mind. There is no underlying time-based plan for... anything. Once it is seen and understood, the world appears the same, but it is without an "I" at the center, is always happening NOW, and is without space, indivisible, and intimately contiguous. This last paragraph is really just a kludge, it could be expressed (and has) in many ways, all of which are compatible. How things are really just has to be seen experientially... cannot be conveyed in language.

Lairg, are you a meditator? I ask this because meditation is the optimal environment for seeing the underlying fabric of reality.

Purpose is a story the mind tells based on the delusion that there are separate things and people. When the mind is still and quiet, ask yourself where your separate "self" is.

This - all day, every day, every moment, endlessly.

The Dao is just reality, as it is. Flowing "with" the Dao is being in alignment and not causing resistant eddies and currents with our attachment or aversion to what we think should happen, to what is happening, or what might happen. To an enlightened person, these changes in functionality are just reality as it is, nothing to worry about or cause confusion. My late teacher's teacher, the abbess of a well-known Zen institution died of Alzheimers related causes, but went through the process without struggle, in good humor, and in gratefulness that others were so willing to help her. This obviously won't be the experience of most people. Having worked with my late wife's grandparents, and my own parents as they age, I can recommend just meeting them where they are. Is the reality they believe they live in any more real than yours? If they think you are someone other than who you are, roll with it. If they think they just came back from the pub, let them tell you their story. If they can't find something see if you can get them to laugh with you about it, and let them know that you are sure it will turn up soon. Don't pity them, or try to explain over and over how YOU see the reality of things, or who you believe them to be. This won't improve their condition, or their quality of life. If they worry, tell them everything has been taken care of for now, and things are OK. Find joy with them. For an example of how to work with those who are effected give this a listen. It is really wonderful. https://www.thisamericanlife.org/532/magic-words/act-two-0

This is what is being said here: To find the "place where you are" you need: "self", found "now", and "here" (wherever that might be). He is saying here that awakening in this moment to emptiness always happens where you are, in the moment you occupy. Every time you sit and mind becomes still you awaken again. There is a lot of present moment stuff, just in the Genjo Koan. https://www.sfzc.org/files/daily_sutras_Genjo_Koan It is worth rereading! Actually... I'm just going to post the whole brilliant thing:

I think a way to put this from my perspective is that there is ONLY process. No beginning or ending. If time is a delusion, and there can be even some limited experience of this (meditation AGAIN!) one can see this. Different teachings and practices are pointed at different levels of readiness. Even Buddhism has cosmologies, etc., but these are "relative" teachings. There is a difference in flavor between those teachings and something like the Heart Sutra, or DDJ.

I am actually attempting to say (clumsily) that ALL dualities are delusions. Awareness, the Absolute, HAS no attributes. I appreciate your clarifying your language-ing. I agree with Chapter 42. In Buddhism, "emptiness" is one way to look at seeing from enlightened mind - that all things lack an existence as separate things. Having said that, things are also "empty" of the CONCEPT of "emptiness". So, to parse that from the perspective of the Tao Te Ching: Things are "empty" begets the "One", or the "unity". The "emptiness" of "emptiness" is the Dao, looking at the primary, very deepest layer. They are both attempts at trying to discuss the same landscape. You can see this in meditation practice, like all of these things - stillness of mind is the Dao. Describing the Tao creates "unity" or "One". Once you have one, the mind kicks in. To contextualize "One" you have to contrast it with something. This is where language comes in. Once you are using language, everything you discuss needs a supporting character, just as a tree needs the earth, the sun, perhaps a man who planted it, and then another who cuts it down, the table it eventually becomes, etc.etc. - and therefore the "10,000 things" a term used in both Buddhism AND Daoism. I'm sure I have bored many people with this discussion, but it is near and dear to my heart. Glad to engage.

The later teachings take cessation and "no-self" to their logical (and implied, IMHO) conclusions. Have you read Nagarjuna? I would think, as a math fan, that you might love his water-tight logic. He is commonly thought of as the "Einstein of Buddhism". The Buddha applied "skillful means" in his teachings, so it is important to look at who his audience is for each, and at what level the topic is being pitched toward. "No-self" IS your notion of emptiness as an entity. "Self" is empty because it is comprised of impermanent phenomena arising and passing. https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.nymo.html Sure. No problem with that. These are not states, though. States are temporary. Everything has always already been unborn and deathless. The person in the article is K.R. Norman. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._R._Norman Looks like he is some English scholar. Maybe you were thinking of Norman Fischer? Shikantaza is a formless practice. It is no practice at all, which ALL branches of Buddhism feature. It features in the Theravada practices (I don't know that it has a name there) and also in the Mahayana and Dzogchen/Tibetan traditions. There is a great article I read recently about this with a number of well-known and fairly well-known contemporary Buddhist characters. https://www.lionsroar.com/forum-formless-meditation/ This practice, whatever you might call it eventually becomes what the Tibetans call "non-meditation" or "post-meditation" where practice and complete insight mean that the mind is ALWAYS in meditation. Many might get a brief taste from this after being on retreat. The "steeps/fills/drenches" is a jhana instruction from the FIRST set of jhanas which are all firmly in the "form" realm. Shikantaza is very much a deeper "formless" practice, something like the last few jhanas EXCEPT that it is not a practice at all. It is simply "being", and therefore beyond any practice.

Keeping in mind what you just said about time/space in your previous post, what other experience would there be? It's is worth digging into that one. Right. But, they are always visible together, at least in "my" experience, as described so eloquently in the Heart Sutra.

It isn't surprising, but I am happy to hear you say this. Since you signed onto the board you have seemed like someone who is taking practice seriously. I generally find arguing about dharma repulsive, though I have been caught up in doing so in the past. This is also not an intellectual exercise for me, it is a moment to moment lived experience. Agree. The "present" is still terminology. Having said that my experience is that there is awareness of being, happing now. To me, "time" is the idea that there are other places in "time" to be than this one. I agree that those examples are fine proof to at least question or doubt the validity of the commonly shared model of time. Yes. Like all dualities, time, space and awareness are not separate things. _/\_

It takes BOTH for emptiness to be visible. You can only ever see the Relative world. If you are enlightened, you can see that emptiness is there as well. Where can you see the Absolute otherwise?

Purpose is a thought constructed in your mind, much like human rights, and free will are. You can! Meditate until your mind becomes still. In that stillness, do you notice "purpose" unless it arises as a thought?