stirling

What system is this in reference to?

Whatever practice you are doing, cherishing, holding out as THE way in... isn't. What you are looking isn't the words, or the movements, the visualizations, the breath... any "thing". What you are looking for is what is in between all of those "things". What you are seeking requires no "work" or "doing". I requires learning to stop doing.

Good catch! Unlearning, or letting doing fall away might be more accurate.

I like presence as a term. Awareness might be my favorite. Not keen on Source, as (to me) it implies something separate from anything else. Worlds? Other than here/now?

Yes, "source"/emptiness/Dao is unchanging and permanent, but it isn't a separate thing. If your training has gotten to the point where you can see it, or if you have permanent insight into it, you realize that, while all impermanence arises from that which is permanent, "source"/emptiness/Dao can ONLY be seen in impermanent appearances. They are one and the same, inseparable. Emptiness IS Form, Form Emptiness. Time, space and self are intellectual constructs born of a misinterpretation about what we see in the world. It is obvious in the moment of insight, when time, space, and self fall apart.

I think I would like these "they" very much!

Just as it is no-thing, it is also ALL things. Everything that arises in consciousness (thoughts/feelings/etc.) and everything that arises in the phenomenal world (birds, trees, houses, cabbages, pants, etc.) are empty/no-thing/"source". Form and emptiness (source and no-thing) are the same, inextricable.

When I say easiest, what I mean is that the mind is more easily stilled in this position. This has been known for thousands of years, and is the reason it is featured in meditation practices in most Eastern traditions. It may be physically hard, but there are plenty of modifications that make it possible for most people. I don't believe I said it was a requirement. - It seems like something I have done or said has made you take exception to me personally. I would welcome a personal message from you, if you would like to clear it up. _/\_

I'm not sure who you are aiming this at, but I don't believe in, and haven't ever suggested anyone force anything. The actual intention is to allow, and approach with curiosity. The thinking mind naturally runs out of steam eventually. There are some practices that people use to get INTO meditation, but they shouldn't be mistaken for the meditation itself. Think of them like crutches... when you can walk it is fine to set them aside. When you start to notice you have dropped watching your breath, for example, most will be upset that they lost count or focus. This is actually a signal to start being present in the spaciousness that opens up when the method has dropped.

The goal is really to bring stillness to ALL activities. It is easiest to start with sitting meditation, but a simple walking meditation would be next, or try chopping vegetables or hand washing dishes. Driving and walking in nature are also easy places to start. I have many of my student set a timer for every waking hour to remind them to stop and reestablish stillness for a few minutes. This eventually makes you start noticing that stillness establishes itself sometimes, which makes sense since it is always underneath the thinking mind.

Yes, this is how it goes. Eventually you notice that there are gaps when the mind is still. At that point, my recommendation would be to start noticing those... becoming curious, but not grasping at them. When thoughts arise, do not engage them with a second thought, but rather just allow them to be as they are - a single thought arising and then fading into silence. Eventually you learn to identify with awareness rather than your thoughts, and can more reliably watch them pass with less effort. Yes. The mind is actually that stillness... the thinking process of thought leading to thought leading to thought is because we feed the process. It is the engine by which "self" is generated. The intellect is just a tool, is NOT the "self". It is fine when used for its purpose, but is generally not necessary. This is something you discover more and more the longer you meditate. Chanting, like watching the breath, is a way IN, not the meditation itself. It is fine to start out like that, but once you realize that your mind has become still and thoughts are not arising, allow the method to drop away. Have your intention be resting in the stillness, and watching as thoughts and other sensations just arise and pass from awareness. All of that sounds like the way of a Bodhisattva! Gratefulness is generally in short supply, however.

I agree, the DDJ is a prime example of just how simple transformation can be. I am surprised by how many have managed to complicate it, add different cultivations and aspirations to such a clean and simple document. You know when you encounter the real deal when even different translations cannot damage the stainless quality of the dharma contained within. _/\_

Won't bother with simply resting the Dao/Nature of Mind/Emptiness/Brahman. Won't bother with dropping practices and just allowing the mind to become still and seeing how things are from that perspective. Why would it? Why would the thinking mind feel like turning itself off for a while might be a valid way forward? It is convinced that it is a "self" and that the thought process is how problems are solved. How could just being possibly be the key? Surely it is more of an intellectual pursuit? Of course it depends on what you think you want to achieve. What I am pointing at is the cessation of the struggle/suffering of the "self" and complete alignment with the Dao, OR enlightenment, from the Buddhist/Hindu/Sufi/Advaita Vedanta perspective. What DO you want to achieve? A lot of thinking there. I get it, I really do, but none of that happens in the way you imagine it. You are speculating, finding reason why it wouldn't suit you. It doesn't have to. It comes back to that question again - what do you want to achieve? I find most of those that get anywhere are seeking to either end their suffering OR understand how reality really is. Depends, again on what you want to accomplish. If you meditation is just resting in stillness, and you get what it is you are trying to do, experience will lead you to resting for periods of time in what IS "enlightened mind". From there it is simply learning to recognize it. All of those other pursuits are also valuable, though I would add that seeking insight into your attachment and aversion is key.... and another place where meditation is invaluable. The thinking mind does not want to meditate, as I imagine you have noticed. It takes a few weeks to a month of practice to get to the point where the thinking mind is exhausted and stillness really begins to appear. 20 minutes a day will do it. How long ever day do we look at the internet? YOU can't turn off the chatter, no. You CAN allow the mind to exhaust itself and become still by not feeding it. Anyone that cares can do it. Every student I have ever had finds they can... if they WANT to. Not at all. I appreciate your willingness to engage and question. As far as "correction" is concerned, practice is the thing that creates insight into these things. As I said, most won't even take a month or two of sitting for 20 minutes a day to find out what is possible, or if the training is transformative.

It's actually very simple. Perhaps the clearest instruction I have ever read is the Tsin Tsin Ming: https://terebess.hu/english/hsin.html#3 The short version: Dismantle your belief in your "self" as a separate being that exists in time and space. If you stop feeding the delusion of "self" you can glimpse the underlying reality. How do you stop feeding your delusion? Seek stillness. Meditation, where the mind is still and quiet, is the simplest place to start. Having the stillness pointed out for you is sometimes expedient. It requires no money, beliefs, or reading, really. You probably won't bother. Almost no-one does. It isn't complicated or sexy enough for most.

The brain is like any other labeled phenomena - an "icon" for a set of ideas and observations. "Coming to center" is really just dropping all of our preconceptions about how things are. "Center" is always available, right here, right now. Reality is: What is happening now, viewed from the mind in stillness, and therefore without any of our conceptual overlay or personal projection.

I don't disagree with you, but I think it has utility where the discussion of what is "real" is concerned.. in the context of the discussion. I tend to use this talk as "skillful means" to get people to at least question that what they see is a "real" world. It isn't. Brain? It has nothing to do with the perception of reality or lack thereof - the materialists came up with this idea in the 40's or 50's that the brain was the source of all thought, and reality, but none of those propositions has ever been proven... only CORRELATIONS have been made, which is absolutely not the same. The brain has as much of a reality as a separate thing with intrinsic existence as anything... none. Our intention colors what happens, yes, but... surprise, not only is what happens in the outside world something that arises in this moment, and lacking "self", but so are our intentions. The arise in the unity/emptiness/Dao as part of the whole. We aren't masters of reality, but rather the unity itself... but also lacking the ability to direct what happens due to our lack of "self". Concepts are pernicious and subtle. Materialism is one of the more obviously pernicious flavors. How are things really? It is all presented clearly here:

Anil Seth fits nicely in right here:

Not at all, my friend! I am saying that belief in something from the past can't compete with permanent-always-happening-now insight. What I am saying is that there are "spiritual experiences" (meeting gods/past lives/akashic records/etc.) which all of us on this board can probably remember, but not experience now. Once an experience has been had it exists only in the past. If we decide these remembered experiences were "real" it is only as a belief... a story. I can remember many strange and interesting experiences, but they aren't happening here and now, and will never happen the same exact way again, if at all. Even if I DID have Jesus show up in this moment (he isn't here presently, however) I could still see that "he" was a much a part of the fabric of "emptiness" as anything else in the room he appeared in. Insight into the Dao/Emptiness/Unity/Brahman, in short, "Enlightenment" is ALWAYS visible once seen completely. It is permanent, and is the one salient characteristic of ALL phenomena, including would-be gods and akashic records. It upends the model for how the world is seen by revealing a fundamental flaw in the story we have always told ourselves about things. Once it has been seen, the story of our model of reality is shattered. The reality of the existence of an individual person (a "self"), of time, of space, and even of any two things that exist to react together is broken. The phenomena of the world, the people, trees, cars, everything else still is present, but known to be a play of impermanence happening, but transforming moment to moment, light and color - all of it with a complete lack of any intrinsic existence of its own.

_/\_

Yeah... really "heavy handed censorship"? Do you even realize how many chances we Mods here have given you because we all kinda enjoy your crusty grumpiness? The way that you repay us is to keep pushing the edge and creating more unnecessary work for us. You are out of chances. Next time it's points and a time out as far as I am concerned. There is nothing in the board rules that supports violating them because your "truth" is more important than they are. This is not a platform for free speech.

Some of the posts on this thread are pretty thinly veiled references. If it continues we'll be locking this thread. Deep thanks to those of you who are refraining. - Mods

Welcome to the board!

Enlightened activity gnows itself. That "tacit understanding" belongs to no-one.

Hope you don't mind - I split this question from the thread you posted in. There is a lot of dark, angry baggage there that would probably detract from your question. _/\_

Welcome to the board. I’d be interested to hear about the world view that comes with the magical systems you have worked in.