stirling

Agree. It's the experience of the Tao/Emptiness that matters. Once one can identify it one can rest in it. All other methods of practice can be dropped in my experience. So the path, at its simplest might be: Learn to recognize -> Keep diligently recognizing.

Nah. You could become a kindly chartered accountant and that path might enlighten you. You can't make a mistake, but you can definitely lengthen your voyage if you have attachment to belief or opinion. What is required is actually very simple. When the mind is still, what is missing? What is interpreted? What path or teacher are you following?

It is the adoption of a quasi non-dual view that makes Liber Null of interest to me as a workable system. Insight into non-duality clarifies the difference between the dream-like world of duality, and the sharp clarity of the non-dual. With an appreciation of the difference between these two it isn't difficult to choose almost any model of reality (all of which are necessarily "dual") and carry a "soft-belief" (or "hold reality lightly", as my late Tibetan teacher would say) about the world that makes working within that belief system possible. The other aspect is that there must be an avenue for a particular working to appear in the world for you, so if you want a visit from a god, or ancestor, a dream is a common way for them to appear. Another way might be as an entry in a book you are randomly looking at or, in my case, in a vision, since I already have visions regularly. Being able to summon the HGA already connected with a dream I recall having as a teen about meeting a "Guardian Angel", so it seemed somewhat possible already. The stack as I look at it is a s simple as: Choose a working of some sort, with emphasis on it being something that has a place to come to fruition. My experience is that requests that ask for insight, or benefit large groups of people as well as yourself tend to get more traction tha purely selfish motives. I have never requested anything with dark motives. Devise a way to symbolically connect to it, or at its most simple just ASK genuinely, or from a place of surrender what you want to appear. Adopt a belief system that you can at least partially accept that would make the vehicle, space where it appears and outcome seem actually possible. Invoke without attachment to outcome. Refrain from dwelling on the request or outcome in your daily life going forward. Long before I tried the HGA working, I was already doing this- asking for a certain kind of place to live, or the financial reality that would allow me to relax, or certain kinds of relationships, or jobs... probably not always without attachment. In all cases these requests MOSTLY materialized, but this relative reality has a sense of humor. You might imagine that you want a house with a fireplace, but get one with a GAS fireplace. You might as for a certain type of car to appear, but find it isn't in a color you think you want. This sort of magic has nothing to do with beliefs or traditions, etc. in my opinion. I find that ALL of my students that adopt a "bodhisattva" attitude, and regular meditation practice tend to have an easier, more bountiful and more relaxed/happy life to the degree that they keep it up, work to drop their attachments and aversions, and BELIEVE that they can actively be of benefit to the happiness of others in the world. Recommended.

Jenny Lamb if this is the right person appears to have abandoned her previous practice(s) and has taken refuge in Zen teacher Thich Nhat Hanh's "Plum Village Tradition". She is not a ordained teacher in the Plum Village lineage as far as I can tell. I would look at what her current practice aspiration is and see if it aligns with yours before following her as a student. https://buddhism.jenniellamb.com/about/

Every non-dual religion/philosophy points the same understanding - Taoism, Sufism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, etc., etc., and generation after generation of teachers have had this insight and complete revision of understanding and shared it with the world. It isn't mysterious or secret, it is right here, right now, all of the time. Anyone who is interested in seeing this deeper more salient quality of reality should seek an enlightened teacher. They are all over the place in most medium or large cities or towns, but often even in small ones. There are at least 3 that I am aware of even in my little town of just over 10,000 people. It doesn't require secret techniques, asceticism, money, books, or anything like that, but it DOES require dedication, effort, and daily practice. I'll share a little document that I really love, a message from a Tibetan teacher along these lines:

Agreed. I think most people FIRST encounter this kind of thing from a book or online now, and might take texts and teachings out of context, in an illogical order, or interpret them incorrectly and waste vast amounts of time. In my opinion there is also this addiction and attachment that people have to exclusivity, rarity, or how "secret" a teaching is that can derail progress. What is needed to practice and find some success is in fact very simple... and there is a reason that many of the most popular teachings REMAIN popular.

Not what I thought you might say. Huh. Seems an complex reason, when rites and rituals are absolutely part of many Christian ceremonies but, I'm no expert.

Of course, probably almost no-one encountered these ideas first in written text, if they could read at all. They would have encountered these ideas after seeking a teacher, who would have had a reputation OR have been recommended by someone with a reputation. The teacher they found wouldn't have given the student an impossible to find or buy text, they would have shown them what they were talking about directly. The concepts ARE abstract, but the reality of them can be demonstrated to be omni-present and real with practice and guidance.

Why wouldn't a Christian watch it?

That's excellent. Slow and steady, with as little clinging to results as possible is the way forward. Ah... but did he point our Rigpa to you, or at least attempt to? A fantastic attitude. Yes, absolutely. Yes. Allow emptiness to well up whenever possible. Set a timer and do it once an hour. The more you can see emptiness in walking, washing your hands, cutting vegetables, etc. the more you will notice it is ALWAYS present. _/\_

You don't NEED to, no. Most people I have met on the spiritual path either want to stop their suffering/struggle, or understand the nature of realty. That's when seeking understanding would be advantageous. Whatever a psychopath brings to your life is already part of your experience. You are misunderstanding what "Oneness" means in this context. It is, in it's least complicated explanation, a change of perspective about how the world is. Oneness is the most salient characteristic of the conventional world of separateness, once you can see it. They aren't two things, but in fact have alway been one. It is two ways of looking at the same thing, once there is the available perspective to do so. The Tao IS this "Oneness" that is being alluded to. To be in "alignment" with the "Tao" is to be one with the 10,000 things. What do you mean by the "heart"?

For contrast, a taste from Seng T'san's most famous piece: While few will appreciate it, this is written with an amazing simplicity and clarity that the AI has failed to master. If you want to know how things are, what to stop and what to master it is all here. No other teaching is necessary.

Yes, one and the same.

AI I am guessing. Carlos comes off as obtuse in this fiction.Is "Sosan" S'eng Tsan? If so, despite the correctness of his replies, I would expect greater depth.

Thank you for your long and detailed reply. I'll see if I can come back with one myself: Agreed on all counts. There has never been any conversation in the conventional sense in my visions, and this was no different, though more thoroughly real almost any of the others, and most certainly fitting the bill of angelic in a strange, dusty, time and space forgotten forever kind of way. Yes, the sword fits the bill... one of a number I have been handed. It makes no particular sense to me, and has no top-of-consciousness resonance. I have been calling it a "Logos", which fits right in there in its way. Makes sense. It isn't anything internal, in my opinion, though some would argue that ALL of this internal. The subconscious is a man-made construct that I don't buy anymore. What makes the most sense to me is that it is a symbolic representation of perfected "beingness" as an illusory separate construct, and therefore naturally having some inaccuracy. I agree with your second idea. I think how it appears (or if it does at all) depends upon how clear your ability to see is in relation to your obscurations. By obscurations I am referring to: https://www.wisdomlib.org/concept/obscuration Yeah... I dunno. Higher "self" doesn't make any real sense from my perspective, except possibly in symbolic terms. I can't attribute any particular depth of understanding to the encounter, which isn't to say that deepening of seeing into emptiness doesn't happen all the time. I find that this comes where there is less trying to conspire and contrive reality and more accepting and surrendering to what seems to want to happen, or alignment with the Tao. My teacher tells me that those with insight are "taken care of" meaning that minor miracles and synchronicities seem to occur, and things just tend to work out - not winning the lottery, or anything, but a more general simple good fortune. The devil you say! I suppose I don't think so either, now that I really talk it through. I'll just say, I think anyone who has the inclination and can hold a belief lightly should try this experiment, summoning often, earnestly and with good intentions to be of benefit to others. It certainly convinced me that magic is possible and does work if there is no clinging to outcomes. It would probably be even more beneficial to someone who hasn't already travelled so far in another tradition. What other workings would you recommend that might be synergistic, beneficial or build on success with this one?

Your questions e.g. the Holy Guardian Angel: I did the ritual, and had the visit. The knowledge and conversation, if I understand correctly, are the "union" with the HGA - somewhat redundant in my case as "union" is seen now as just the reality and always present deeper nature of how things are. Yes, I took the sword, I held my hands out and closed my eyes. I had the sense of pressure on my hands. After a few minutes I dared to look and the vision with the sword had disappeared. Some questions for you, if you feel qualified to answer: Is this something you (or anyone you have met) has had REAL success with? Would you agree with Chapman/Barford that the HGA is a perfected version of "you" from the "future" here to guide you to enlightenement (paraphrasing here).

I'd love to pretend that I have anything really useful to say on this topic, but I can't. In the 80's I had read Crowley's biography, his novel "Moonchild", some other materials, and Golden Dawn stuff. I came across the concept of "Chaos Magic" late last year in a Buddhist podcast interview, somewhere. It is something that crossed my radar from left-field and was a brief source of interest. My research included most of the books by Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford (some of which didn't make complete logically sense to me, or seemed to be what I call "sideways spelunking" rather than direct climbing out of the cavern of delusion), Chapman's "Advanced Magick for Beginners", as well as "Liber Null & Psychonaut: An Introduction to Chaos Magic", and "Liber Chaos" by Peter J. Carroll. Whether it is entirely something new wouldn't particularly matter to me... it's real appeal was its accessibility, simplicity, and efficacy.

A belief is something we construct when we don't know or gnow (gnosis) through experience. Why settle for a belief when complete understanding is available?

This is good. Life IS the path, and the experiences we encounter, and our attachment or aversion to them, the story we tell about them (our "new" karma) and how we respond to them are our practice. Learning to see that emptiness is available in every moment is the antidote. Have you have pointing out instruction? It sounds like another viewpoint on your work with the Five Poisons, etc. I haven't used this perspective or toolset myself. I started practicing Nyingma/Dzogchen in 1990 with Ngakpa Chogyam Rinpoche. I took classes at Rigpa UK when I lived there. I took refuge with Gyatrul Rinpoche and Lamrim teachings with David Newman. I also had teachings from Lama Zopa Rinpoche, Robin Courtin, and Jon Landau. I received empowerments with all of them, but also the Dalai Lama (and a thousand or so other people) twice. There were plenty of other adventures in there I am sure I forgot. Since 2015 I have been working in Soto Zen, and am now a teacher. After enjoying a podcast discussion with Alan Chapman and Duncan Barford (could have been this one: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/worp-fm/003-do-what-thou-wilt-KuLDrjd3ea0/ ) they mentioned the simplicity of summoning the HGA. I did some research, found this video, added a black candle to the proceedings and tried out the call. The video: Within two days I had a vision of a completely real "angel" at my bedside... something strange, ancient, clothed in pale grey robes and humanoid, but with it's face blocked by a hand. I haven't received any instructions, but was offered a sword once. My insight into non-duality has continued to deepen, but existed before I summoned the angel, so I'm not sure if I had already preempted the process. The angel still visits occasionally, but each time somewhat transformed. Some may take Chapman and Barford cum grano salis, being that they are Chaos Magicians and don't always use the strict ritual structures, but it in reading and listening to them I find that the Chaos Magic framework works quite well with my Buddhist instructions to hold reality lightly. Many Buddhist texts are magic, and include admonitions to hold belief systems, but LIGHTLY, for the purposes of altering our way of seeing. In absolute terms, ALL of these appearances are empty and have only relative existence.

On the front end, not much - on the back end, quite a bit. If you are already enlightened and just need to realize it, it is much more possible in this lifetime. A good teacher can actually point out enlightened mind so that the student can learn to practice in it. Unless you know what enlightenment is, how could you actually codify it into a goal? Ultimately no person becomes enlightened.

Well... yes. That's me. These approaches ARE different and the stated intent is different. It IS possible to become an enlightened "self" (I have seen this called non-dual "one") rather than realize the entire field of reality is enlightened (non-dual "two"). Non-dual "one" still retains a subject/object relationship, and there are some I have met that do not get past that experientially. For a discussion on this that I like to come back to for reference check out: https://deconstructingyourself.com/transcript-of-a-few-stray-points-about-nonduality-with-jake-orthwein.html See above. That might be the case in some places, but that isn't my bias. We have a Thai Forest group in our town with actual monastics, and we are all friends. We (Zen priests) helped them build some bookshelves earlier this year for their monastery. Different traditions and practices suit different people. My dharma brothers are all intent on reducing suffering. The alaya vijnana isn't really a player in Mahayana, so much. The bodhisattva vow mostly comes from the Diamond Sutra, the relevant quote is: I think this intent is born out of the deepest love and compassion for all beings, a large feature of practice in the Mahayana.

Funny... I always think about it as simple and clean - unless we are enjoying the poetic presentation of Dogen.

In this case I am really pointing toward stillness or emptiness rather than a stillness of the mind. The mind is what moves and is therefore only ever temporarily still. Enlightened mind sees emptiness even as the mind has thoughts, or bodily activity. Like all things thoughts or bodily activity arise naturally and pass, and have never belonged to a "self". My original quote, for reference: Note - no traditional Theravada teacher would be pointing this out, only a Mahayana or Vajrayana teacher, and yet it is plain as day once you know what you are looking for. Learning to see it is the first major step to liberation. - The entire world view is different, Mark, and that colors what practices are done and emphasized. Try a simple google search and do some reading: https://www.google.com/search?q=differences+between+mahayana+and+theravada+buddhism&oq=differences+between+mahayana+a&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 Zen students do obviously read the suttas, and sometimes do SOME of the Theravada practices (jhanas for example), but that is the exception, and they aren't done from the same beginning perspective. Theravada students are intent on enlightening themselves, but not in this lifetime. A Zen student knows that they are already enlightened, as is everything else, and that almost anything could precipitate that realization. A Theravada student aims for liberation for himself, a Zen student intends to save all beings from suffering. Theravadins seek anatta, or "no-self". A Zen students seeks emptiness or the realization of the "no-self" of ALL seemingly separate appearances in consciousness. The practices reflect these differences. There is too much to capture here, but it takes more than a cursory examination of the two to understand. Not that it really matters, but this is a perfect example of why you don't get the difference we are talking about here. Where there is enlightenment, there is truly no difference between Buddhas. The lineage is a recognition of that. The text of ordinations, lay entrustments, and transmission make this clear.

The place to find evidence is in your practice. It's free to find out, and doesn't require any beliefs, or books, just meditation.

I'm lost, honestly, but I'm happy to leave it here.