MetaDao

43 minutes ago, freeform said:

Yeah I understand - I disagree… but I also realise that there are many ways up the mountain

 

Most of us are starting out not at the very peak of health. We have tons of baggage… we’ve been depleted, our channels have closed and our organs and internal processes are in disarray… Our emotions are easily triggered, our mind is dull and unfocused… our bodies are in a regular fight or flight mode… Our minds are completely entranced by the dramatic spectacle of the acquired self…

 

If you haven’t built the channels to a high level… if you haven’t cleared most sick qi… if your inner system is not in relative balance and harmony…

 

Then adding the incredible amounts of power generated through alchemical methods will simply fry the system.

 

Of course it depends on the methods… not every alchemical system generates or requires the same level of qi… some go for refinement and subtlety over raw power… others focus on mobilisation and flow…

 

In my opinion - you need all of them. 
 

Imagine you’re an incandescent lightbulb… you’re starting out with a filament that can handle say 30 watts…

 

With Neigong we (my teachers particular approach) want to build up the strength and thickness of that filament until it can handle 3000 watts.

 

Then we use alchemy to generate ever more power to get to that wattage… Then we refine the output… so that there’s less heat generated by the bulb and instead more light generated.

 

Putting 3000watts in a 30watt bulb will result in the bulb popping.

 

Thats what qi gong and Neigong (and even the martial arts to some extent) are generally used for.

 

The reality is that the distinction I made above is not really that clear… there’s a lot of overlap in the process - but this is a simplified mental model.

 

I’ve trained with teachers that don’t build up from the bottom first (thickening the filament) - and they go for the light directly. The result is a bunch of fried students… only a minority get anywhere (and they’re the ones that have trained from the bottom-up in other schools)… And even they tend to reach a level beyond which they’re not able to progress…

I see what you’re saying, but I still disagree. The majority of the preparation process you speak of is carried out while building up power slowly. Yes, if diet is poor and instructions aren’t followed, you can become fried, but that is on the student as well as the teacher.

Now, can this process  be carried out safely through pre-recorded videos? No, not really. It requires the personal touch of the teacher.

I think what you say is true. It depends on the methods. The particular methods I speak of though have been carried out by many students without a glass-ceiling effect 

The issues you speak of, in my opinion, are issues that arise due to a poorly designed system of practice. The most optimal system works on those things in a very parallel way with the least amount of risk. For example, attaining the elixir, as explained to me, is like building an engine. Take a car manufacturing plant. If a manufacturer is developing engines for cars and 5/10 of these engines malfunction, I would say the creation process is flawed. If then 2 more out of these 10 engines were completed but never switched on, then the system of creation is definitely flawed. Only 3/10 engines that are worked on with maximum effort ever make it. That, to me, is an ineffective system of practice. It may work in certain people, but it is not optimized at all.
 

There is always risk in alchemy. I think it falls upon the students and teachers to be aware of the risks and navigate them accordingly. This is why you cannot just follow methods without the guidance of a master. It isn’t safe. My teacher has made me aware that I cannot practice more than he allows me to as it can damage the channels. He’s also made it clear that poor diet can drain you. If the risks are made clear, the student should adjust accordingly for success. In addition to this, the teacher monitors the student’s state from week to week to see if there are any issues that need to be addressed. 
 

As a general rule for the public, yes, I can see how a Neigong system is the safest entry point for Neidan. It provides a very good foundation. It’s not entirely necessary though if you come across the right system. But again, I guess this comes down to fate. Maybe students that damage themselves just have that fate 🤷‍♂️

13 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

I mean an ultimate level that a human being can practice at

Ah, yes, then there is an ultimate level for humans. My bad

Continual practice takes you beyond human level but I guess you could say there is an ultimate destination a human could practice at. Anything above that is above the human level

That would mean that spiritual growth is finite. Do you believe it is?

Why does there have to be an ultimate level?

25 minutes ago, Master Logray said:

For those who are confused by all these foreign terms Neixxxx.   Actually they can be distinguished outwardly.

 

External Martial Arts (Wai Gong) - those kicking, punching, jumping, flipping back and forth quickly

 

Internal Martial Art - slow movement speed training process, looks soft, fight fast

 

Nei Gong ( complement the external martial arts) - standing, squatting, stances, slow and repetitive strenuous exercises

 

Nei Dan (alchemy) - sitting or lying down

 

 

i.e. from Kung Fu Panda to hibernating bear.

 

 

 

Wrong. It’s fine if those are your definitions, but those are violated by contradictions.

Alchemy is not done only by sitting or lying down, so that definition is wrong. You can’t define internal processes based on movements like that.

Not trying to be an ass or difficult. I’m just very passionate about getting these definitions correct and clear

But, if that’s a joke then sure it is kinda funny 😄 

24 minutes ago, Immortal4life said:

Oh yeah, you could argue the ultimate level is just complete realization of the mind's oneness with the universal energy. 

 

Attaining the "prana mind" so to speak.

What do you mean by ultimate level?

Is there an ultimate level?

4 hours ago, freeform said:

As far as I understand what he calls Neigong is the process of inner transformation

Facts.

The point I am trying to make is that Neigong is not a prerequisite process. It can be a parallel process with Neidan.
 

Neidan is alchemy involving the pre-heaven substances for spiritual growth.
 

The internal process and side methods involved to help this along are Neigong in the context I work within.

Qigong is exclusively post-heaven.

Neigong is a combination of both pre and post-heaven. But it does not include replenishment or refinement of pre-heaven.

Neidan is entirely pre-heaven. Includes replenishment, refinement, and fusion.

So, Neidan lineages include the Neigong process to help things along and speed it up. It can be parallel.

If a system has Neigong without parallel Neidan practice, it is, by my definition, more inefficient 

To me, the way I think of it… it would make way more sense for Jesus to be sipping some wine and be like “yo, you know how I healed that blind man? It’s because I have a spiritual practice I do that transmutes my spirit. My entire being becomes closer to heaven and God and anyone can take this path and become just as righteous and holy as me. It’s not limited to the rich. Not limited by race. Not limited by culture: Not limited by sexuality. It can be learnt by the poor and rich alike. It is a practice where you experience unconditional love and learn what reality truly is. It’s a path where you become the light and radiate good out into the world. It’s a path where everyone is equal in the fact they we all have the opportunity to find the path and walk it. God designed the world in such a way that spiritual practices exist so that we can move closer to Him. The path is not within me or within any savior. It is within you.”

Instead, the Bible is kinda a contradictory mess. It may not have been Jesus’s fault, but it doesn’t change the fact that it could’ve been done better. I have hope that there will be a revival of spirituality at some point.

I do think there is a reason Daoism is kinda going through a modern revival. It’s one of the few systems surviving throughout the world that actually leads to an infinite path. It doesn’t matter what ‘religion’ it’s labeled under. It leads to spiritual growth either way. For Christianity to revive, they must adopt practices. There are so many churches in the West. Imagine if the priests were all Di  Xian Christian equivalents and there were actual practices to do to evoke change in people.

Maybe all the conversion and war was necessary for a future revival 🤷‍♂️

20 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Your posts are very good, I wasn’t directing the criticism at you. I do believe in every religion there are overlaps and pieces of the puzzle, but I wouldn’t go so far as saying one is the best. They are just different. If everyone had a supremacist view on their own path then the world would be a much more violent and worse place than it is.

 

It’s good to learn from and share with each other.

I agree. However, it is a tough line to walk because some paths are simply better in terms of the results they offer.

Just how there are differences in people at birth. It would be a lie to say everyone is born equal.

I think all true paths lead to uncapped spiritual growth.

Everything else is a false spiritual path. It doesn’t mean we should condemn them necessarily, but we do need people to be able to recognize the true from the false.

There are some paths which are great, very beneficial and lead to some spiritual growth, but they are glass-ceilinged. Meaning, the spiritual growth has a limit or cap. It’s a universal truth that spiritual growth is infinite. So, all authentic paths should be infinite in what destinations they can take you towards.

I do agree though that taking a supremacist view is dangerous 

6 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Then why was this topic derailed to shit on Christianity?

I didn’t think it was

It was derailed to shit on teachers of Daoism too.

I would put Jesus above Damo Mitchell and many Earth immortals of our time. I simply think he did not frame his teachings in the correct way. This led to them being misused in his name.

If you understand Neidan and alchemical lineages, then you understand the role Xing and Karma plays in everything. Daoism is very clear in this regard.

Now, the magickal systems that label themselves as “Daoism” could be shit on and rightfully so. They are the ones that spread the horror that is the bedroom arts.

Daoism is alchemy in pursuit of spiritual growth.

You could say the same for true Christianity.  Alchemy in pursuit of spiritual growth with practices. Jesus, for a fact, did spiritual practices very similar to Neidan. There’s no other way to transmute your being and become saintly.

Everything not in pursuit of spiritual growth shouldn’t be labeled as Daoism. Nor for Christianity or any other religion but it still often falls under the umbrella in our vocabulary.

I believe practice centered around spiritual growth is the only religion.

6 minutes ago, dwai said:

Where is the role of Daoism in this?

Agreed. Alchemical lineages have nothing to do with any of that.

The way in which Jesus framed things was spiritually immature I think.

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.“ 

It seems almost egocentric or like it all went to his head somehow. The framing of his teachings encouraged mass conversion tactics and his incomplete explanations of reality led people to believing in a false heaven and hell.

Its interesting to reflect on the history because around the time he was teaching, there were still Daoist alchemical lineages and such. I wonder what high level masters thought of Jesus. I’m sure they could view his life once they heard of him.

The whole concept of a savior/messiah/chosen one seems a bit delusional to me. I think this is where things do fall on Jesus a bit.

The laws work in mysterious ways.

I think Jesus could have executed his vision a bit better and left a more long lasting impression that was more beneficial to reality.

Imagine if the Bible was a book on spiritual growth and how to become someone like Jesus rather than what it is.

Not to say he wasn’t a great spiritual figure, but I think his wisdom could’ve had a different effect with the right execution.

44 minutes ago, Miffymog said:

 

1. Sorry for the mild derailing of the thread.

2. Sorry Dwai, I can't resist taking the bait 🙂

 

 

If Jesus is an example of someone who you agree is 'simply stuck at a middling level'.

 

Then you must, of course, be familiar with what it is / it consists of to be at either a low, middle, or even high level.

 

Care give some more details in regards to this 🙂🙂🙂

 

 

 

Well, none of us can truly say as we weren’t there but it’s my belief that Jesus cultivated an extraordinarily strong heart field amongst other things that made him act the way he did and gain a large following.

No one is simply born a saint. You are made a Saint. Through cultivation. The true teachings of Christianity are shrouded and maybe lost.

In the end, he did not free his soul from the reincarnation cycle, which is why it’s a legend that Jesus will eventually return.

Though, one could say, he had one of the largest impacts any spiritual practitioner has had. I think there is something quite special about his path and something we can learn from it. There are many qualities of Christianity that I wish were in daoists.

Di Xian is middle level in Neidan. I believe Jesus was the Christian alchemical equivalent of this.

3 hours ago, Miffymog said:

🙂

There are apparently Christians who are 'taken by god', in that they achieve the full light body. 

Christianity has or had their own alchemical practices that created ‘saints’. Equivalent of spiritual immortal 

1 hour ago, Nintendao said:

 

I always thought pre-heaven and post-heaven was an odd choice of words and a little confusing. I prefer primordial and acquired, respectively. Primordial/pre-heaven (yuán qì 元氣) could be the incarnating force itself, or anything received from realms beyond the physical. Whereas acquired (?) qi is the energy gotten from food, air, light. That is one general way to see it but i'm sure there's an intricate continuum, especially when dealing with transmutation.

 

If I make a guess it's that the small wheel takes mostly acquired qi, and the greater circulation works in more yuan qi, or at least interfaces with it.

I believe there is a very good reason it is called pre-heaven. Before the creation of Heaven, these energies existed

1 hour ago, Wilhelm said:

That's all good

 

 

My only point was that were probably gonna get confused when mixing models (i.e. you probably remember Damo splits moving work into Qigong and Dao Yin based on whether the body's internal structures are being mobilized, and I imagine your teacher splits them into Nei Dan/not Nei Dan based on whether the pre-heaven treasures are being worked with).

 

I don't think it's a big deal to say these two models are in conflict - so long as there's a teacher with a development track the practitioner will be able to realize for themself whether they're stagnating. 

 

And maybe one system disagrees with the other but since we're all at the first couple stages of the process that's just theory anyways imo.

Agreed on most points 
 

I still believe it’s a fact that the system Damo teaches isn’t really the most streamlined for Neidan.

3 years in the lineage I am within with 2-3hrs of practice a day, following it as you should, I think you get further towards the destination of Neidan, taking two equal beginners.

I think there’s such a thing as just a better designed system of practice.

19 minutes ago, Wilhelm said:

From what little I know about your system, would it be fair to say the nature of the pre-heaven treasures are one of the main points of disagreement between your teacher and Damo?

 

I.e. while Damo requires stillness-based practices to work with the Yuan Jing your teacher prefers (correct me if I'm wrong) a moving method?

Well, to understand this, you must understand the nature of stillness and movement.

I believe it is written in Damo’s book that the nature of pre-heaven is stillness, so we must still the mind and still the post-natal Jing to increase our chances of contacting the pre-heaven.

However, the divine law of containment of Yin/Yang should be understood here.

Yin is contained within Yang and vice-versa.

This implies that stillness is contained within movement and vice versa. It is indeed possible to work with the pre-heaven through movement. 
 

The point of disagreement is that you don’t really need to do qigong and Neigong prior to Neidan. You can move straight into Neidan. It still takes a number of years, and the goals are different. Your physiology will forever be changed when Yuan Jing replenishes and melts. It’s a pre-heaven firing process 

1 hour ago, dwai said:

Maybe saint seraphim was simply stuck at a middling level. 

You could say the same for Jesus.

5 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

Would you be open to sharing your view? It's always good to hear different perspectives on the matter

Sure. The view in the lineage I study under is  that the focus should be placed on pre-heaven. There is a main alchemical method that deals with pre-heaven substances. We replenish the Yuan Jing. When the Yuan Jing is completely replenished, the Yuan Jing melts, automatically forming the Dantian, and your Yuan Qi is automatically already at its ‘’max’. Your Dantian fills automatically.
 

All the things you work on in Neigong automatically happen. Basically the entire Neigong process is included within the alchemical methods, same with martial arts.

The post-heaven channels open. Pre-heaven channels are built. Circuits are established. Elements harmonize.

There’s no need for a great background  with post-heaven substances.

11 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Interesting. Did you know of any others who also took a month?

Plenty of people. It’s not too difficult if you are motivated and practice 2-3 hours a day. The methods in that system are meant to build and activate Dantian very quickly. Doesn’t take much skill. Just practice 

10 minutes ago, -_sometimes said:

What do you mean by this? 

 

Isn't neigong the precursor to neidan? From my very limited understanding, neigong sets the foundation by building a neigong body that is capable of handling neidan. Neigong is involved on the jing and qi level, while neidan is on the shen/spirit level - given the oft-mentioned jing->qi->shen, you kind of need that base of jing->qi to ensure permanent transformation. 

 

How does your school approach this?

That’s Damo’s view which is incorrect.

You do not need a Neigong foundation before moving into Neidan. If you do work with the pre-heaven, it has a direct affect on the post-heaven. If I open the pre-heaven Ren and Du, every other channel opens automatically.

The program works. You could train in his program for 3 years online with no in person instruction and get great results in terms of qigong and Neigong.

Given an option between an online Neigong program and Neidan training, I would choose Neidan. That 3 years is better spent on Neidan accomplishments. Why would I work on activating and developing Dantian when the Dantian automatically forms when my Yuan Jing is replenished?

Why would I work on increasing post-heaven Qi when I can increase pre-heaven?

Its just an inefficient path for Neidan if you compare the authentic alchemy teachings to Neigong. 
 

Why would I learn Taichi when martial arts are included in the alchemy practice and take you even deeper than the big 3 martial arts?

Sure, it has its benefits. But, there are superior systems and better teachers.

24 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I see. So what he teaches in the first year is to activate the LDT? Is this the only practice he teaches in the first year? What sort of time frame does he give for it to roughly happen. 

Took me like a month

42 minutes ago, EFreethought said:

 

So is there no interaction with Damo or any instructors at all? No Zoom call, no Skype, nothing?

Occasionally there are some online zoom sessions where he gets to interact with students more closely.

The retreats are where the action happens. I got kicked out and placed onto a better, more streamlined path before I could attend one.

All in all, if you listen to his explanations, he is one of the best teachers of Neigong around. There is not much opportunity for one on one interaction unless you stick with the program for years, but it does work as intended.

I would say he is a great teacher with a few flaws, but I think if you actually get to know him and talk to him in person, he is great at what he does.

Also, in Daoism, martial arts are a part of the spirituality, so Neidan masters should have mastery of martial arts and Chinese medicine in addition to alchemy. Something that Damo’s various courses provide in great detail. 
 

I would recommend him for the majority of people. If you are dead set on the elixir, and the end goals of Neidan, I also believe there are smarter ways to go.
 

It is in good faith that I may say with no certainty whatsoever that Damo treated me in the way he did to somehow aggravate my psychology and push me onto a different path. Either that or it was fate. I do not know for sure and never will until I talk to him in person. That bloody asshole