MetaDao

35 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

And not many people are really prepared to do that.

More than you think are.

5 minutes ago, freeform said:

don’t care about generating power for its own sake. My tradition is only interested in it as a tool to aid in spiritual growth. Hence the lack of virgin corpses at my teacher’s place 😅

But, would you agree, there are ways to share the tools that aid in spiritual growth while keeping the unsafe guarded power generation methods more gated?.

In any case, I still might argue that the knowledge is better in the hands of the many than the few. When in the hands of the few, there is a tendency to misuse such things for even more power.

6 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

I personally would not want to get heart surgery from someone who didn’t go to medical school and didn’t learn from actual heart surgeons 

And you don’t have to  

Luckily, we have the free will to choose which doctors we’d like to see and we’ve got a system setup to prove that people have mastered the skill that is widely available to the masses without gates.

If someone wants to play doctor in their garage and hurts themselves and the idiots that sit in their operating table in the meantime, that’s simply them being stupid. The laws of fate and stupidity at work.

10 minutes ago, freeform said:

Heart attacks on the cushion are not uncommon.

 

Liver cancer (and various others) are not uncommon.

Yes, you could easily turn this on its head though.

You know what else is not uncommon? All the benefits to body and mind.The reduction in sickness when all channels are opened. The list goes on.

When you skydive out of a plane or free solo a mountain, you know there is a chance something could go horribly wrong. People still do it anyway. And many of them succeed. The ones that are injured as a result. They knew the risks.

26 minutes ago, freeform said:

Methods without personal growth results in people becoming monsters… power without growth always turns towards darkness (and usually goes unnoticed).

Yes. Authentic spiritual methods result in both growth and power.

Even then, if people train in things that give power without growth, it’s their responsibility to deal with the karmic backlash

25 minutes ago, freeform said:

when that happens within a lineage there are knock-on effects beyond our comprehension… effectively poisoning the spring.

Now we are getting somewhere real.

This is the only argument I see of yours that isn’t utter bullshit. Lineage purity

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

but that’s just an excuse - a strawman their mind creates to excuse the fact that they’re not prepared to jump through the hoops required. It’s a selfish view (self-ish in that it’s in service to one’s ‘self’.)

Turning the selfishness of the teachers back onto the students themselves. Bold strategy

34 minutes ago, freeform said:

Why aren’t these arts freely available?

 

There’s two aspects: secrecy and access.

 

First and foremost, the most important thing to remember is that no one owes you anything

 

“But please please please - I really really want it” - yeah even then.

 

“But it’s for the betterment of all mankind” - I doubt it… when people play that card, it’s usually a front for their grandiose view of themselves as a saviour.

 

Access.

 

Why aren’t heart surgery techniques freely available?

 

Because you have to prove that you’re smart enough, responsible enough and hard working enough to be allowed to do such risky stuff to people.

 

If you walk into an operating theatre off the street and demand to be shown heart bypass techniques, you’d probably be escorted out by security.

 

Remember - no one owes you anything. Many masters would love to pass on their art to students that can be trusted - but they must prove their trustworthiness first - with no expectation of what they get out of it.

 

People pretend it’s about money… but that’s just an excuse - a strawman their mind creates to excuse the fact that they’re not prepared to jump through the hoops required. It’s a selfish view (self-ish in that it’s in service to one’s ‘self’.)

 

Most people expect masters to trust them with precious jewels, but they can’t be trusted to even prepare the ground for the teachings to begin.

 

If I say that you must train cardio until you’re able to run for 30 minutes without heavy panting - that’s when the complaints start. “You’re not showing me the super secret methods!!”

 

Or I may say that you must take on a responsibility in your community - one that benefits other people. “Yeah but where are the super secret methods!!”

 

These aren’t just tests - some of these are prerequisites… in fact a lot of the ‘secrets’ of making a method work are within these boring prerequisites… 

 

For example - if you’re a young man and you don’t get out of your comfort zone enough to be of service to something other than yourself, you have no chance of  generating Yang Qi to any great extent… oops there goes one secret. But of course it’s a distasteful secret that won’t even make it past most people’s filters.

 

People want some secret mechanic… something they can manipulate to gain an edge, or to get some power. There are such things too - but what’s the point of showing these (often dangerous) methods if you’re not prepared to do what’s required for growth?

 

Methods without personal growth results in people becoming monsters… power without growth always turns towards darkness (and usually goes unnoticed).

 

And when that happens within a lineage there are knock-on effects beyond our comprehension… effectively poisoning the spring.

 

So that’s one reason for secrecy.

 

I’m not suggesting that there are also guarded secrets that are designed to maintain power - that also exists. But these days that’s less of an issue than it was in the past.

 

These days people are lazy - you can give them all the secrets and they’ll try and find shortcuts and not get anywhere and then think their teacher is withholding something.

 

These discussions about money make me laugh… money is by far the least ‘expensive’ exchange

Yes, your argument is the entitlement cop out. Don’t believe it. More bullshit. If people are too lazy, then the methods will never work. Like you said, there are safeguards built into the methods that keep them from being effective until certain things are achieved.
 

You know what’s different about being a doctor and giving heart surgery? All the medical books are available without any gatekeeping and you are free to learn from the very best to become a master. Still have to learn, but the resources are not a secret.
 

It is not a case of individuals being entitled. It is a fact that all human beings are innately entitled to spiritual growth. You are deluded if you say otherwise. That is why we are all here. So we can spiritually grow. We’ve created artificial gates around it that don’t need to be here.

It’s funny. When anyone suggests to tear those gates down, people will come up with all sorts of rationalizations to justify it

5 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Honestly, people should be grateful things have opened up how they have. The running narrative from people I know a long time in this game is " I wish this was available when I started out" and "I nearly had to remortgage my house"

Lol. Exactly why you should be angry then and still angry now.

This is the equivalent of saying in the 1940s, you should be grateful because blacks used to be slaves, now you just don’t have rights.

4 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Why should we be angry? There are plenty of authentic arts available for a reasonable price if you look hard enough, and relatively easy to find too. Just from this site alone I found three good teachers that I’m learning from, two who can faqi. Plus I found a TCM doctor who can faqi in my parents country that I can see when I visit them. We are blessed to have this site but we spend too much time arguing with each other about nonsense instead of working together and pushing things forward. 

Indeed. I can see your point, but there could be many more available for a lot cheaper.
 

Also, the arts you are mentioning are not the deepest spiritual arts. You can’t find authentic Neidan teachers very easily.
 

We should be grateful for what we have but work together and push things forward to make reality even better  

You all should be angry. Be mad at how these arts are locked away.
 

How reality has fallen to such a state that it is this difficult to find real, authentic arts that take you to a place of spiritual transformation without paying exorbitant amounts. This is why my tone sounds the way it is. I know how impactful these arts can be. And, I can see through the bullshit that surrounds them.

11 minutes ago, NoOne said:

 

Sure, I would like to be directed to someone who can show me first hand. How might I get in touch with them?

And, herein lies the problem  

16 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

@MetaDao

 

There are people who PM me a lot, asking for  beginners advice, or opinions or that they missed my posts. 

 

In this case, given the important nature of the opening post, I felt obliged. 

 

This needs to be said clearly: It is for them that I am posting, not for you. 

 

I would  honestly prefer if you don't try to engage in discussion with me.  I really don't appreciate your tone or manner

 

It will go nowhere and just derail a thread, mods will come, problems will happen.

 

There are plenty of other members here who are happy to engage and talk to you. So I'm sure it should not be a problem

 

Please respect that. Its going to be my only say and response on the matter

Sure! My tone is used to incite people into seeing past the bullshit to the truth. Not aimed at angering you  

14 minutes ago, Shadow_self said:

Yes, and more too

 

See this post

 

 

There is a difference between secrecy and screening.

 

No teacher gives anyone extremely potent methods from the get go.

 

If you are lucky, its a case of giving someone enough to know whats happening isn't imagined or fake, and slowly bringing them deeper and deeper. If you're unlucky, its even worse

 

Normally there's things like character tests involved along the way, and markers that need to be met

 

The weeding out process is required

 

This is why, in over a decade, there are still people out there clinging to misunderstandings  and partial instruction from a certain tradition.

 

They've already failed the first character test

More bullshit. Any understanding of karma or divine law and you’d know these things take care of themselves on their own.

Character tests? Please. I wouldn’t teach Damo Mitchell due to character issues yet he’s way further along than many who deserve it more.

People with character issues that do nothing to change them will naturally be weeded out by themselves. Reality won’t allow them to succeed. There’s no need for teachers to revoke access due to ‘character tests.’ All of this is bullshit meant to keep you thinking there’s a reason for so much secrecy. It’s just a way to silence people and instill fear into them that they won’t be able to access the teachings of the immortals.

Until there are convincing reasons on why the teachings are so secretive, I call bullshit

You can learn all form and structure from video easy enough. The state of emptiness is much more difficult and takes years and years to continually improve in. I think it is achievable without transmission though 

Errors in form could be corrected through A.I analysis that analyzes differences between original video and practitioner.

Use something like chatgpt to basically hold all the knowledge of the masters and answer all questions. Totally possible. Would curate diet plans, answer questions around theory, in-person training would be available for those who reach certain attainments.

My thoughts on it..

2 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

The way I see it, after the initial libertarian period, the internet has basically transformed everything into a commodity. Doesn't make me very optimistic.

The next evolution of that is de-commoditizing it.

That serves a purpose of first making everyone hate the fact that people are profiting off these practices that many should have access to. Then, as more and more people realize the issues, it becomes free over time.

10 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes and the revolution should be safe for all. Who is going to fix and take care of the people who do damage to themselves? 

The natural increase in medical qigong practioners

11 minutes ago, Pak_Satrio said:

Yes. Practices can be dangerous if done incorrectly. Simple as that. 

That’s a bullshit answer though. 
 

It’s like the argument for making all drugs legal vs not making them legal. If people know exactly what the risks are, they should be free to risk their health as they see fit.

Think about how recent the internet is. It’s only a matter of time before there’s a revolution in how spiritual practices are spread. It’s already begun

14 minutes ago, Cobie said:

Yes, indubitably so. Otherwise, you can no longer sell a ‘secret. It’s all about money. 

I think much of it is about money. That is primarily the case with internal martial arts and lesser arts like Qigong and Neigong.

What I wonder: why the secrecy around the most deeply transformative spiritual practices?

Is it a case of the world not being quite ready to handle the truth?

I can tell you right now based on what I practice: anyone with enough dedication and athletic ability could reach the highest levels. It’s basically a spiritual sport. Albeit, the hardest sport in the world. Yet, if given to more people, if access wasn’t so gated, I believe there would also be far more people with high attainment.

I played tennis my whole life and had the talent and capability to go pro. Because of this, I realized there were just as many people just as talented, just as athletic, just as dedicated, just as smart, or even better than me. There is always a higher mountain.

Practicing what I practice now, I know for sure, there are thousands and thousands of people, if not hundreds of thousands or millions that have the capability to reach the highest level.

You could say it is fate or Ming, but to be honest, that answer might just be bullshit. Because if we put the teachings out for the world to freely see, fate or Ming would be much less of an issue.

I can promise you, if I manage to reach the level of Earth Immortal and don’t see glaring reasons to withhold information or the practices, I will reveal them for free. I don’t think my personality will change that much over the years to not be able to fulfill that promise.

10 minutes ago, mcoolio said:

 

Never heard about that mo pai prostate cancer thing. Is that actually true?  I wanna believe, but I'll need more info

 

That's said, there are many hobbies, skills, occupations with which you can seriously damage yourself, with or without guidance. People do it anyway, sometimes they perform amazing feats and reach high levels of achievement. Sometimes they die ... People die all the time doing all kinds of stuff.

 

 

To me it seems as if the real problem in this subject is the secrecy attached to all of it. Notice how despite all the discussion going on here, there is almost no discussion of actual techniques here. Nobody here, shares the actual methods they got from their school/teacher. Nobody, including myself, dares sharing these methods! This secrecy is deeply rooted in the way how these old traditions - some of which probably still exist today - operate.

 

I can understand how in the past, secrecy used to be a necessity. The big question is, is it still a necessity?

That is the question isn’t it?

I wonder the same thing all the time. I question why the methods are secretive. It’s my belief that if they are shared in the correct manner, the risks fall on the practitioners, just as people risk their lives doing a whole multitude of other activities.

Why should practices aimed at spiritual growth be limited? But, I believe you can’t truly judge whether or not they should be shared until you reach the master level. Something very few achieve. When they achieve it, everyone always comes to the same conclusion on how to pass it on. So maybe there is a reason.

With the technology we have now a days though, you could totally record the practices with all relevant theory. I think it’s something that may change in the coming years

4 hours ago, freeform said:

I guarantee that (all going well in your practice) you’ll look back at your current understandings and cringe a little - knowing how little you understood really…

 

Then 5 years after that - same thing - and so on for all the years you’ll have left on earth.

 

Knowledge, understanding - all that sort of thing will change - SHOULD change. It’s not really that important.

Yep, I expect to cringe at my understandings. That’s okay  

That quote was taken out of context though. I simply meant that I do not want to get angry at people just because their understanding is different

Also, I would say that same rule applies to yourself, except you are even further into the process so you run the risk of stagnating.

A base level of understanding is important in being able to recognize the path and navigate finding a teacher. This is what I aim to provide people with my posts. If you spot errors, then please correct them

5 minutes ago, Barnaby said:

 

Something got lost in translation.

 

I was actually being friendly. It was not my intention to be boastful, competitive, or patronising. Sorry if it came over like that.

 

You said you wanted a conversation. I thought I'd contribute an alternative perspective. You didn't want to hear it.

 

C'est la vie (...say the old folks )

 

Best of luck with your practice.

 

 

I think it was my bad that I misinterpreted it in the wrong way  

I read it in a patronizing yet helpful way. After re-reading it, it seems like I was overreacting  

Thank you 🙏 

You as well

I also would like to apologize for my harsh wording on here.

It seems that I am screaming at people that they have no fate for Neidan simply because they do not understand things as I do.

However, sex is one of those topics where I hate bullshit. It can easily turn into a dick measuring contest where old men say, I’m still having sex! Or, if you’re not having sex, good luck with emotional connection! And, I don’t put up with bullshit.

This is the neidan perspective on sex that I’ve outlined. If you want to reach the highest levels of Neidan, eventually sex must be completely eliminated. To think otherwise is to be delusional.

My opinion and belief is that this must happen at everyone’s own pace, as to enforce strict guidelines upon it runs the risk of creating sexual deviants. Also, if we are completely transparent on authentic Daoist sexual teachings, the fake teachings about bullshit like semen retention, semen circulation, and other such nonsense will be eliminated.

Of course, sex can be had every now and then by even those far into the alchemical process, but it is still considered a waste. And, it is not the same as desire has been changed on a fundamental(elemental level). Yes, sex is the physical vessel for deep emotional connection with a loving partner, however it can be moved beyond to things even more connective than sex.

Also, if you’ve had sex 100 or more times with the same partner, eventually you will both be ready to move beyond it naturally.

Moderation for personal growth.

Elimination for the highest of spiritual growth. That’s my final view on it.

50 minutes ago, freeform said:

There’s a very well known teacher (not naming) who was trained from a very young age under a strict master.

 

He became incredibly skilled - but as a result of missing out on normal human experiences developed what I’d consider an unhealthy obsession with sex in his adulthood… An addiction to prostitutes in my opinion is unhealthy. Some say that this ended up costing him dearly.

 

Personal growth, development and maturation are just as important as some esoteric mechanics, in my opinion.

And, I would agree. Personal growth is a necessary prerequisite for spiritual growth.

So, basically I’ve concluded that the Neigong approach to sex is the healthiest until such a time that you feel sex can be ruled out entirely. Moderation.

Until you’ve reached a point in your life where you feel it can be eliminated.

Just have fun, chill out, and enjoy the journey  

1 hour ago, Pak_Satrio said:

This is what I've learned too. Jing depletion is not just as simple as losing semen. Your thoughts and arousal play a factor. Having sex or bringing yourself to orgasm without ejaculation will still make you lose jing, and may fuck you up in other ways if you keep retaining your semen without ever releasing it. 

 

Like everything else in life, moderation is key. What's the point in not having sex or ejaculating at all but then having it on your mind 24/7, or even worse trying to suppress the thought of having sex on your mind 24/7. Just relax and don't take anything into excess. Don't have too much sex/ejaculation and don't have too little. A rule of thumb I've been thought is that the number of decades you've lived should correspond to the amount of days between ejaculation, so if you are a teenager you keep 1 day between ejaculation, in your 20s keep 2 days between ejaculation, in your 30s keep 3 days etc. But of course the longer of days you keep between the better, just don't hold it in too much, have fun and release once in a while. Just don't think too much about it, don't take it too seriously. The less things you worry about the better for your mind and in turn your practice.

Good answer! That’s the Neigong view on it