Daniel

I didn't say that the word "timeless" is in the verse. I brought other verses to support the interpretation that the revelation to the jewish people is timeless. But, it's not only MY interpretation. If you need more, there is a hadith where Muhammad defers to the Torah: https://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/abudawood/033_sat.html#:~:text=They placed a cushion for,who is learned among you. Is there a problem with the translation above? Is there context in the hadith that is missing here?

The Quran, per your own translation, is teaching: Indeed there are some among the jewish people who truly believe in Allah. They humble themselves before Allah. Are they converts? Of course not! We are already practicing Islam. If the Quran was *actually* teaching hatred towards the jewish people it would not have ended the surah in this way. Regarding Jesus? That's a common view among the jewish people. No one knows what Jesus actually preached, so, we stick to the Torah and Tanach.

Ok... @Vajra Mind, Respectully, I don't think you're being fair. I'm accused of cherry picking, but, it's OK for you to "pull the most relevant verses"? I discussed the context of 29:46-49. I went back to the Surah 28 showing the context. The Quran is teaching that a revelation was brought to the jewish people prior to the Quran. Yes, the jewish people, in the majority, have a problem with disbelief. The Quran is teaching that too. It's no different than the prophets of the hebrew bible. This theme is continued in Surah 29. Ayat 46-49 state very clearly that not all the jewish people are the same. If there is a translation problem, please bring it. If there is context missing, please add it. You're referring to Surat 3,5, and 59. I'm referring to 28-29. I also brought a few examples from Surat 2 and 3, but, my primary analysis is on 28-29. In order to discuss this, I think we need to first agree on what is actually stated in the Quran. If we cannot agree on what the words literally say, then we are not reading the same Quran. Understoood. I chose that translation by spot checking the ayat in Surat 28-29 with the individual word definitions in corpus.quran.com. This does not change the meaning of the ayah. So, this specific objection to Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is invalid. Let's look at some others. OK. Thank you. Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation. https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/3/st78.htm Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest, agreed? Let's look at another example. Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation. Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest. Ok. There's 4 examples of dishonest translations, right? 5:13, 5:60, 5:64, 5:78. Let's look at Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation. All four of the mistranslations brought as examples are correctly translated by Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation. Dr. Shenaz Shaik's translation is not dishonest. Assumptions? Aren't you assuming I'm using a flawed translation? You raised some objections, but gave no examples of any faults. You've mentioned dishonest translations multiple times, but, have you checked the translations I am *actually* using? Here they are, please confirm that we are reading the same Quran? Any problems with this translation? Any problems wiith this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation? Any problems with this translation?

In another thread @wstein wrote: This thread is intended to discuss enlightenment in a non-hostile manner. In order to foster this discussion, please: Do not make claims / assertions / implications about other's experiences including whether or not their own perceptions are delusional, or that their enlightenment experiences knowledge is incomplete or faulty. The purpose of this thread is to share experiences and information. Each reader is welcome to form their own opinion about the credibility of each post and each poster. This should be a common practice for anyone participating actively or passsively on an internet forum. Caveat Emptor. But this does not mean that posting thosee opinions here is welcome. So please, no mocking, no challenging each other, or making universal statements about the flaws of non-enlightened people.

They do not know the language either, or, they are being dishonest. Linguistically the inscriptions CANNOT be referring to Asherah, the goddess. The inscriptions say 'SRT. That's it. The pronominal suffiix "T" is never-never attached to a name. The youtube "scholars" will never tell you that. Here's a list of resources on this. The top link is the best. Don't forget to read the conclusion. https://www.google.com/search?q=pronominal+suffix+asherah&oq=pronominal+suffix+asherah&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigAdIBCDc1OTJqMWo5qAIAsAIA&client=tablet-android-sprint-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1

NatrualNaturals, If you would like a reply, it would be best to tag me, or quote me. I just happened to notice this reply browsing the forum. It is an attempt to re-write the scripture of my faith. That doesn't mean it's true. They have theories. You've asked this repeatedly. Judaism is POLEMIC to paganism. I think I have given you a link to the definition to this word. The fact you will not accept the answer I've given repeatedly is bizarre. Judaism rejects paganism. It did not transition away from paganism. Judaism sharply rejected it. The common people were practicing different faiths and often assimilated in with the other religions. That is the story told in the hebrew bible. When they are doing that, they are practicing paganism. Judaism is the rejection of all of that. You've also asked this before, and the answer is no. The word appears to have a plural suffix -IM, but all of the corresponding verbs are singular. The only time it is plural is when it is talking about other pagan gods. I recall referring you to a source to confirm this simple fact. At this point, I think you would prefer to have false information that agrees with you. At one point I would have happily spent time showing you how this works and answering all your questions about it. But, that ship has sailed. You'd need hebrew knowledge to assess this. The english translations describe god is anthro terms. Certainly christian translators will do this to support their desire for a god of flesh. You'd also need to read the text in context and in sequence. The strongest examples are obviously and clearly poetic metaphor or in visions/dreams. they are trying to force judaism to be similar to the other religions, and so are you. there is a lot of money to be made defaming judaism. defamation of judaism is very old and very popular.

Your opinions about me are noted. I do not deny the faults when they are occuring within myself.

Speaking for myself, I'm not upset. If you are commenting about me, that is a false perception.

I see you ignored the 50% of the content of the post to which you replied. It's the same thing you did to Brad's post. This confirms what I wrote earlier: Cropping out and/or ignoring content in order to shield oneself from criticism is dishonest or delusional. Sure, but if you are deluded you are not in a position to determine if the buddha is correct. It is certainly irresponsible to preach it if one is deluded and cannot accurately assess its potential for harm. Is the "ego" or "delusion" the problem with this starving baby? Is the craving for food a problem? Is the craving to feed the baby a problem? Is the aversion to allowing it to starve a problem? Eliminating these cravings and aversions causes harm.

Speaking for myself, I do not deny the enlightenment of buddha. I am not convinced this "enlightenment" is good, natural, or healthy.

If it's not an insult, then, being delusional is neutral? Harmless? The one who is claiming others are delusional is asserting their own enlightenment? See, it's not neutral. The assertion is: "You are causing your own suffering" That's an insult. Are these children causing their own suffering. Is their "craving" the lowest common problem which needs to be solved. Is the aversion to their starvation a problem?

Well... nice try. Not a great example because a the pick-pocket has a cognitive skill, the deluded has a cognitive defect. A proper analogy is, one who is no longer deluded can better spot those that are currently deluded, because, they know what it looks like and feels like.

Great! Do you now see how it logically follows?

I'm delusional about what? Maybe. But isn't the urgency a delusion?

This has no connection to the logical truth: If someone is declaring another person deluded they are declaring that they, themself, are NOT deluded. You seem to want me to admit that, in general, I can be wrong about ... stuff. Of course I can be wrong about stuff, but, I'm not wrong about this. I am very happy to hear another persepctive. Go ahead. Please, tell me about how a person who is deluded can accurately assess another person's delusion. I am listening. I am confident about this, because, I have put a lot of thought into it. I put a lot of thought into everything I post here. This is a good thing. That's why people rarely, if ever, refute what I've written. And the community doesn't like that. The community wants to see my confidence knocked down. Go ahead. Knock it down. I would absolutely love to be proven wrong, and or, to learn sometthing new. Show me what I'm missing about this.

I've had a chance to sit down and review the Quran to be sure I was not remembering incorrectly. Here is the quote I was referring to: Quran 29:46-47. I carefully checked the translation. I think the word-for-word translation by Dr. Shenaz Shaik is very good and clean, but I welcome your correction if I am wrong. https://islamicvoice.com/womans-voice/personality-of-the-month-dr-shehnaz-shaikh/ وَلَا تُجَـٰدِلُوۤا۟ أَهۡلَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبِ إِلَّا بِٱلَّتِی هِیَ أَحۡسَنُ إِلَّا ٱلَّذِینَ ظَلَمُوا۟ مِنۡهُمۡۖ وَقُولُوۤا۟ ءَامَنَّا بِٱلَّذِیۤ أُنزِلَ إِلَیۡنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَیۡكُمۡ وَإِلَـٰهُنَا وَإِلَـٰهُكُمۡ وَ ٰحِدࣱ وَنَحۡنُ لَهُۥ مُسۡلِمُونَ ۝٤٦ And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit." وَكَذَ ٰلِكَ أَنزَلۡنَاۤ إِلَیۡكَ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَۚ فَٱلَّذِینَ ءَاتَیۡنَـٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ یُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦۖ وَمِنۡ هَـٰۤؤُلَاۤءِ مَن یُؤۡمِنُ بِهِۦۚ وَمَا یَجۡحَدُ بِءَایَـٰتِنَاۤ إِلَّا ٱلۡكَـٰفِرُونَ ۝٤٧ And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers. The important details here are what I wrote previously: The book revealed to the jewish people, the Torah, brings the same message, the same teachings as in the Quran. That is why: "None [of them, the people of the book] reject the verses of the Quran unless they are disbelievers. They ( we, me ) have a revelation which matches one-to-one with the Quran. This should be simple for them ( us, me ). Also, we worship the same god. This is the core of what Muhammad is preaching to jewish people in the Quran. This is not the only place this is written, I'll bring another example in a moment. Regarding context, the intention of these verses, as I have described them is consistent starting in the previous surah 28, and, it continues consistently through surah 29. Surah 28 retells the story of moses (Musa) in egypt. It's a story which is well known to virtually all jewish people. We learn this story multiple times each year. I have now read it approx. a hundred times. It begins: 28:1 Ta Seem Meem. 28:2 These (are the) Verses (of) the Book the clear. 28:3 We recite to you from (the) news (of) Musa and Firaun in truth for a people who believe. 28:4 Indeed, Firaun exalted himself in the land and made its people (into) sects, oppressing a group among them, slaughtering their sons and letting live their women. Indeed, he was of the corrupters. 28:5 And We wanted to bestow a favor upon those who were oppressed in the land and make them leaders and make them the inheritors, 28:6 And [We] establish them in the land and show Firaun and Haman and their hosts through them what they were fearing. Notice: Allah desires to bestow favor on the jewish people. They are to be leaders, inheritors, and they are to be established in the land. That's in support of the jewish people. Yes, it's true we, the jewish people, are often rebuked in the Quran. But we are also supported when we do the right thing. It's no different than the hebrew prophets who rebuke us, but their rebuke is harsher. For example In 28, the story of the burning bush is briefly mentioned. In this story Moses is given signs to prove that he had indeed had a revelation with the god of of Abraham Isaac and Jacob. Water was turnned to blood, the famous staff-of-moses was turned to a serpent, moses' hand turns white. Moses was also given other signs in the Torah, but, these are omitted. In the Quran's version, the people did not believe the signs brought by Moses: 28:36 But when came to them Musa with Our Signs clear, they said, "Not (is) this except a magic invented, and not we heard of this among our forefathers (of) the former (people)." This is not entirely different from the story told in the Torah. The details differ, but, the jewish people did struggle with belief repeatedly even though they were witnessing miracles. However, in the Torah, the rebuke is much harsher, God desires to destroy them all and start over. That's much different than what the Quran is teaching. After this, the Quran describes the recieving of the Torah, and Allah, naturally, is cited with being the author of the scripture rec'd. وَلَقَدۡ ءَاتَیۡنَا مُوسَى ٱلۡكِتَـٰبَ مِنۢ بَعۡدِ مَاۤ أَهۡلَكۡنَا ٱلۡقُرُونَ ٱلۡأُولَىٰ بَصَاۤىِٕرَ لِلنَّاسِ وَهُدࣰى وَرَحۡمَةࣰ لَّعَلَّهُمۡ یَتَذَكَّرُونَ ۝٤٣ 28:43 And verily, We gave Musa the Scripture, from after what We had destroyed the generations former (as) an enlightenment for the mankind and a guidance and mercy that they may remember. This confirms that the Quran asserts the jewish people rec'd a timeless revelation from Allah, for the mankind (لِلنَّاسِ ) . Similarly "لِلنَّاسِ" in 12:38 and 22:25 clearly refers to all people for all time. Surah 28 continues reminding the jewish people that they had rec'd a revelation, a book, scripture, verses, etc, from Allah, and here is another book which is clearly from the same source. This is a recurring theme in the Quran. It is identifying and discouraging disbelief, a negative belief, denial in something which is clearly from Allah. Surah 29 begins: 29:1 Alif Laam Meem. 29:2 Do think the people that they will be left because they say, "We believe" and they not will be tested? 29:3 And indeed, We tested those who (were) from before them. And will surely make evident Allah those who (are) truthful and He will surely make evident the liars. The Quran is reminding the jewish people that Allah, God, is testing them **just like the jewish people were tested before**. This is no different. The clear signs were given to Moses, and the jewish people disbelieved. The Quran, interestingly, is moving backwards in the story. Starting with the exodus story which is generally considered by jewish people to be a private revelation, but, the Quran also gently reminds that the revelation of the clear signs also happened to Pharaoh and the egyptians ( 28:3 ). Here the Quran goes back to the story of Noah where the whole world would have been witness to the clear signs of the great flood. Also, the story of Abraham, which is also a universalist story. The Quran does not detail this, but, for those who are familiar with Torah, the God of Abraham was revealing itself to the whole world through Abraham, it was not limited to the jewish people. By going backwards in time, each prior revelation is more and more general including more and more people who are not jewish. This is deconstructing tribalism. All of this is 100% consistent with the conclusion brought in 29:46-47, "Cousins, listen, here is a book which is revealing everything that has been revealed to you already." Surah 29 continues... Jacob and Esau are invoked. Lot is invoked. There are a few others listed which, in theory, would be good for me to research... but eventually we come to 46-47 ( I'll list them again ). And the following verses confirm it as well. 29:46 And (do) not argue (with the) People (of) the Book except by which [it] (is) best, except those who (do) wrong among them, and say, "We believe in that (which) has been revealed to us and was revealed to you. And our God and your God (is) One, and we to Him submit." 29:47 And thus We (have) revealed to you the Book. So those We gave [them] the Book believe therein. And among these (are some) who believe therein. And none reject Our Verses except the disbelievers. 29:48 And not (did) you recite from before it, any Book, and not (did) you write it with your right hand, in that case surely (would) have doubted the falsifiers. 29:49 Nay, it (is) Verses clear in (the) breasts (of) those who are given the knowledge. And not reject Our Verses except the wrongdoers. Here the Quran is preaching: "Didn't you scribe the book with your own hands?" This is pointing to the jewish scribal custom where we write the Torah very carefully, pronouncing each word, then writing it. "If you write it, and you know it, your own book, you MUST accept what is in this book too. It is the same message." What follows immediately after this is a brief interlude where the Muslim is speaking to the jewish person. The jewish person challenges, and the Quran tells the Muslim how to respond. The Surah ends encouraging the Muslim that those who disbelieve in spite of all this will be punished. They, the Muslim, does not need to take any actions against the disbelieving jewish person. The following surah is loosley connected to the previous two, 28 and 29. Nothing in Surah 30 contradicts what I wrote. There are no harsh judgements cast at all jewish people. There are no statements discreditting the Torah and/or replacing it. When reading the Quran in context and in order, it is clear that Muhammad is preaching what I wrote originally: The other example I had in mind when writing my reply is in Surah 2. Critics of the Quran whom I have conversed with point to Surah 2 as an example of anti-jewish hatred, but they ignore the moderating verses. Here's an example: 2:79 So woe to those who write the book with their (own) hands then, they say, "This (is) from Allah," to barter with it (for) a price little. So woe to them for what have written their hands and woe to them for what they earn. 2:80 And they say, "Never will touch us the Fire except (for) days numbered." Say, "Have you taken from Allah a covenant, so never will break Allah His Covenant? Or (do) you say against Allah what not you know?" 2:81 Yes, whoever earned evil and surrounded him with his sins - [so] those (are the) companions (of) the Fire; they in it (will) abide forever. 2:82 And those who believed and did righteous deeds, those (are the) companions (of) Paradise; they in it (will) abide forever. 2:83 And when We took (the) covenant (from the) Children (of) Israel, "Not you will worship except Allah, and with [the] parents (be) good and (with) relatives and [the] orphans and the needy, and speak to [the] people good, and establish the prayer and give the zakah." Then you turned away, except a few of you, and you (were) refusing 2 important details are above. First, here is an excellent example of what I referred to earlier regarding covenants. The Quran greatly discourages breaking covenants, commitments, and treaties. This is one of the problems the Quran is coming to solve among the jewish people and others. "Don't break your covenants, contracts, and agreements, especially with Allah/God". Those who disbelieve ALWAYS are breaking their covenants. They do not believe in a day of judgement. ( Surah 8, specifically ayah 56 ). Second, and most important, please notice, those jewish people who believed and did righteous deeds, past tense, before the the Quran was ever revealed, will "abide forever" in paradise. This proves that the message of the Quran is identical to what was previously revealed. The quran asserts this itself in other places. ( 42:52 ). It's true, the Torah and judaism is complicated and a bit twisted. I love it, and I think it has a lot of value. Clearly the Quran is teaching that what was revealed prior to the Quran warrants great and eternal reward. The message MUST be the same else, there is a different reward? That's tribalism. That's not Isalm. That's not what the Quran is teaching. Here's another example from Surah 3. The Quran has been preaching rather harshly about the jewish people, but, it is careful to moderate it. 3:108 These (are the) Verses (of) Allah. We recite them to you in truth. And not Allah wants injustice to the worlds. 3:109 And to Allah (belongs) whatever (is) in the heavens and whatever (is) in the earth. And to Allah will be returned the matters. 3:110 You are (the) best (of) people raised for the mankind - enjoining the right and forbidding [from] the wrong and believing in Allah. And if believed (the) People (of) the Book surely would have been good for them. Among them (are) [the] believers, but most of them (are) defiantly disobedient. 108 begins by reminding the reader that Allah/God does not want injustice and is the owner/possessor of all that exists. Then, it does proclaim that the Muslim, the one who submits to Allah/God is the best of the world. That can be objectionable to the non-Muslim, but, for the context of this discussion, it's important to note, the Quran reminds the reader that the jewish people have potential. 3:111 Never will they harm you except a hurt. And if they fight you, they will turn (towards) you the backs, then not they will be helped. 3:112 Struck on them the humiliation wherever that they are found except with a rope from Allah and a rope from the people. And they incurred wrath from Allah and struck on them the poverty. That (is) because they used to disbelieve in (the) Verses (of) Allah and they killed the Prophets without right. That (is) because they disobeyed and they used to transgress. This is an interesting passage if one considers what i means if jewish people are NOT turning their backs and are consistently winning military conflicts. 3:113 They are not (the) same; among (the) People (of) the Book (is) a community standing (and) reciting (the) Verses (of) Allah (in the) hours (of) the night and they prostrate. 3:114 They believe in Allah and the Day the Last and they enjoin [with] the right and forbid [from] the wrong and they hasten in the good deeds. And those (are) from the righteous. 3:115 And whatever they do of a good, then never will they be denied it. And Allah (is) All-Knowing of the God-fearing. 3:116 Indeed, those who disbelieved, never will avail [for] them their wealth and not their children against Allah anything, and those (are the) companions (of) the Fire, they in it (will) abide forever. We are not all the same. This is the example of the rocking-and-rolling I was referring to earlier. If the reader has a negative opinion of jewish people, this is validated in many circumstances, but, the Quran is teaching that it's not always true. They, we, me, are not all the same. It's true we have a rocky history, and we have many who disbelieve among us, but, The People of the Book are a community standing. Yes. That is how we pray. We are standing. Yes, We are reciting the verses of Allah. That is the majority of our prayer ritual. We have verses of Allah/God before, prior to the revelation of the Quran. We do believe in Allah and the Last Day. We do what is right. We forbid what is wrong. We rush to do good deeds. Per the Quran, this will never be denied. @Vajra Mind, how am I doing? Did I misquote? Am I relying on faulty translations? Isn't the Quran supporting jewish people when we are doing the right things? If there are no objections to what I've written, I think the next step is to look at what you brought which are specific examples of the harsh rebuke of jewish people. These are counter examples. Let's look at those in context and in sequence, OK? I'd like to look for moderating verses in close proximity. Then I think it would be good to compare those harsh rebukes in the Quran to what is brought in the hebrew bible to see if the Quran is teaching anything which is not equivilant or less pejorative than is accepted as jewish scripture.

If someone is delusional, how can they accurately assess anyone else's delusion? Their own conclusions about another individual's delusions could be delusional. If someone knows they, themself are blind, then they would not be able to accurately assess another person's eyesight.

Um... I never asked you to follow me, and it's quite obvious you don't. So, what's your point?

The speaker is not including themself as ignorant. They cannot call anyone ignorant if they consider themself ignorant. I think it's important to note that I am often accused of apologetics in an attempt to discredit my ideas... That said, you might be right about this technicality. None the less, the one accusing all others as delutional is not, and cannot be including themself. Their ego MUST be assigning superiority to themself in order to make the accusation technical assessment of another person's faults. No one here is going to be honest about criticising buddhism, if they are buddhist. There's no reason to argue about it. But I reserve the right to point out the hypocrisy and the arrogance when it presents itself. Maybe someday the buddhists here will listen and adapt.

there it is... the classic buddhist insult against any who disagree...

I propose it's because you can recognise right from wrong, and can predict the harm and suffering of others when wrong actions are permitted.

It's not something I enjoy reading, but, I think it's required for anyone attempting to discuss Islam. At this time in history, where muslims and jews are locked in conflict, I think it's urgent to confirm for both jews and muslims precisely what the Quran is teaching.

Naturally. I would not tolerate it either. I think what you're describing as hate is in the traditions, hadith, and tafsir, but is not in the Quran. Agreed. The ones which are dishonest that I have seen add english words to the text that are not in the original arabic. I don't read arabic, but, I do try to check multiple translations using a website called "IslamAwakened" and also check each word one at a time via the "corpus-quran". One of the reasons I'm confident in my assessment is that I encountered an extremely motivated critic of the quran who supplied their own list of 90+ verses in the Quran which they asserted proved the Quran was full of hatred. Yet everytime I researched it myself, checked the context and translations, it wasn't at all like what the individual was asserting. Shwing this required bring the surrounding verses of in the Quran, but, I needed to double-triple check the translation of anything I brought. I needed to bring only clean, non-biased translations, else, I would be making the same mistake the other individual was making in reverse. Thank you very much for the opportunity to learn together. Tomorrow is a travel day. London ----> Portland, OR, USA. I'll hopefully reply with content to discuss in the next 48 hours, at the latest. Sincerely,

It's ok, there will be no negative emotions. I will post the quotes from the Quran which confirms what I have written. I'm traveling with my family right now on vacation. May I ask, have you read the Quran? Or are you operating from someone's list of verses curated for a specific purpose? It's vital to read the Quran and these verses in context and in order. Many religious people object to critics citing individual verses not in context, but, for the Quran it is even more vital than any other Western religious text to read exactly what is written in context and in order. This is because the book is written in order to persuade proud tribal warlords and their foot soldiers to put down their hostility. This is not and cannot be accomplished with: "you're wrong, you've been wrong, you're family is wrong...". Instead, the Quran is written with a cadence. It, for lack of better words, rocks and rolls, back and forth, back and forth. It's like trying to free a chariot from thick mud. So, yes, there are verses which validate certain ideas which are clearly objectionable, but then the Quran corrects it. In fact, what I've found in the Quran is that the violent verses, the prejudiced verses, are actually bracketed, surrounded by moderating verses. What results is the reader agrees, and agrees, and while they are in a mindset of agreement, the Quran corrects and moderates. Once I get to a quiet peaceful place, I'll quote the Quran in context and in order to demonstrate what I've written.

You're excluding yourself? That's excellent progress.