Daniel

Greetings DaoBums: This thread is to discuss and explore DDJ 40 its translation and implications. I hope to go through the different versions of the chapter, explore the conventional translations why they might be correct, and perhaps discuss places where alternate translations are more appropriate or should be considered. I would also like to explore the surrounding chapters to discern the flow, if there is one, from the preceding chapter, into this one, and flowing on to the next. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the Wang Bi: ( I think? ) obtained from Ctext.org. 反者道之動；弱者道之用。天下萬物生於有，有生於無 The Henricks book with the MWD does not contain chapter 40. This book claims to have the oldest extant version of the compiled DDJ. 180ish BCE TAQ ( the latest beginning ). daoisopen.com has a comparison chart. It claims the following additions and differences in the MWD B. MWD A is mostly incomplete. 反也者道之動也；__ __者道之用也。天下之物生於有，有__於无 The same comparison chart claims to have the characters from another version predating the Wang Bi, the Guodian. This collection is on bamboo with only a small fraction of the chapters of the DDJ. But its dating per wikipedia is approx 300 BCE, also TAQ presumably. Here is how the comparison chart renders it with the differences compared to the Wang Bi emphasized. The -- indicates a missing character, as opposed to a __ missing character with a blank space. 返者道--動也；弱者道之用也。天下萬物生於有，有生於亡 (edit: these characters are not accurate and have ben corrrected later in the thread) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here are three different translations into english obtained from yellowbridge.com Legge: The movement of the Dao By contraries proceeds; And weakness marks the course Of Dao's mighty deeds. All things under heaven sprang from It as existing (and named); that existence sprang from It as non-existent (and not named). Suzuki: "Homeward is Reason's course, Weakness is Reason's force." Heaven and earth and the ten thousand things come from existence, but existence comes from non-existence. Goddard: Retirement is characteristic of Dao just as weakness appears to be a characteristic of its activity. Heaven and earth and everything are produced from existence, but existence comes from nonexistence. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Thank you, I look forward to working through this and learning a lot together.

~begin-sarcasm~ but... but, but, it makes me feel so good. how can something so wrong feel so right? ~end-sarcasm~

Really? Respectfully, THC oil is a binding agent. One of the most viscous sticky substances I have ever encountered. The flowers are super sticky too. I'm not a user, but, I have friends. I help them sometimes. One of things I've done is render it into medicine. I have a hard time with this notion that it is a lubricant. Oh! The seeds? That'll clean the pipes. Absolutely. They have virtually no thc at all. But super healthy.

Good. This seems to be either a clarification of what you wrote previously or a departure from it. I've been through this, and you have my sympathy and support. When you say "generational", that, to me, means you have not actually witnessed, in this lifetime, the trauma. Because of this, I question, ( a question which does not need an answer ), who is it you are "cutting off"? How much of the "energetic-vampirism" is actually happening in the here-and-now, and how much of it is, forgive me, being blamed on past generations. Yes I have pondered these things. You sound american, in the west these are called generational-curses. They are a concept in evangelical christianity. In truth, they are banished by simply turning away from them. But preachers in "deliverance ministries" capitalize, take-advantage, exploit the desire of the petitoner to blame their problems on some unseen force. Ironically, the evangelist in this case IS the "energy-vampire". They are conjuring the demon they are attempting to banish. This happens all the time. Since the root cause is "blaming-the-other" and this is "conjuring" the demon and feeding it, and the one who is banishing is simultaneously conjuring it, THEN.... ~poof~, magically, there is a steady flow of petitioners, and the collection plate is being filled. And the petitioner's faith in the magical power of the preacher and the magic they are working is a tasty snack for the energy-vampire, who, like I said, is the preacher. The faith is the energy that is feeding the demon. Makes sense? Understanding it requires a mature comprehension of what a demon actually is. I just wonder if this shame is warranted. Is it "just", "proper", "correct", to inflict this shame on yourself. If not, it is causing the same phenomena I described above. It's a cycle. It self-propagtes. Previously I used the concept himsa, and recommended ahimsa towards yourself. From that perspective, it's still a self-propogating cycle. Simultaneously being the hero-and-the-villian is the same cycle. Simultaneously conjuring and banishing the demon, is the same cycle. It's all the same thing. Cutting the cycle is easier said than done. But, in short, it's "turning over a new leaf". Go ahead and make an accounting. But the accounting needs to be accurate. TThey way to get an accurate evalutation of what you actually did and the gravity of those "sins" is... by talking to an objective 3rd party about it. Not me. This is not self-promotion. I am not a therapist. I have my own job, my own profession, my own source of income. I am not soliciting my services. I'm just offering to help, because, you're here, and I'm here, and somehow, we were brought together in this same time and place, and you seem to have a problem, and maybe I can help, just by listening. And maybe offering some objective outside perspectives. After the accurate acccounting, make ammends with those you have harmed, if possible. In a real, way, in the physical, flesh and blood and bones way. Then take a deep breath and move on. If you can't make ammends... the same applies. If there is literally nothing that can be done, take a deep breath and move on. I was replying to what you wrote. So you're saying that you are the enemy who is exploiting the lower beings? Whomever is "stopping the senseless exploitation" is a hero. Whomever is "exploiting the lower beings" is the villian. Again, it's a cycle.... a self-propagating cycle. A drum-beat... a heart-beat. Heart. Beat. Heart. I promise you, I know how this works. If you are both the one who is exploiting, and the one who is stopping it, you are both hero and villian. That is a natural conclusion reached from doing "shadow-work". But, unless you have not been told, and it seems you do not have anyone helping you, my friend, with shadow-work, it gets worse before it gets better. Much much worse, and then... hopefully, it gets better. The idea is... keep heading down hill.... Water collects... down-hill. creeks become streams, streams, become rivers, rivers become bigger rivers which eventually lead to the ocean. The ocean is love, my friend. The ocean is love. Aloha. Once you make it to the ocean, you're out of the woods, and you can find your way home from there. But it's not easy. It gets worse before it gets better. The river is super-choppy and dangerous as it empties into the sea. Even building a raft... good luck. You need a good raft, indigenous knowledge, and, for safety, one needs to be an excellent strong swimmer. Just knowing how to "float" won't cut it. The nice thing about following the river down hill, is, it's great for navigation when lost in "the-unknown-territory". But, without a raft or a guide.... it's treacherous. Hiking along the banks... not a good option. If you've ever tried this in real-life. You know what I'm saying is true. Based on what you've written, and the shadow-work. You are your own worst enemy. But, my friend. Hee-hee, You're not alone. I'm my own worst enemy too. We're all our own worst enemies. You're in excellent company, I promise. That's the conclusion of shadow-work. Literally. Conclusion. The end. Finis. Denouement. Then ... Graduation. Moving On to greener pastures and a brighter future.

I'm not against that. These would be things you have done, you take responsibility for them. That means they are not the product of evil spirits of past generations. Or other people attacking you or taking advantage of you. Or some other mysterious change in the world where things are becoming "dark". Or imaginging that it is your destiny, your life-path that is to ... blame. Cleaning up your karma means taking responsibility. But, also, it can't be taken to an extreme where one is harming themself for things they actually didn't do. That produces karma too. Harm to oneself is still harm. Ahimsa. To yourself too. Setting oneself up as the "hero"? I simply don't think you're in a position to acccurately evaluate the enemy, or what to do about it. Of course, but, it can backfire. And it's best not to attempt it solo. Who is helping you? Real flesh and blood humans? Then it's probably not a good idea to engage in that, nor to pretend you would know what, when, where, why, and how, to do it safely. And the seeking out some generational spirit to blame is heading in the w-r-o-n-g direcction if you want to get healthy. If not... please by all means... feed those "black" spirits more of your "tasty" faith in them. OK. Reality check. Just a few sentences ago, you said you only worked with black magic in a state of "unawareness". Now you're claiming you know what "often" happens. My friend. Come on. This is getting silly. I don't think you're being intentionally dishonest. I think you're actually being boastful about what you know, and what you've done. But this is being masked by this facade of being afflicted. I don't doubt you feel afflicted. But it still could be nothing more than a magic-show your mind is conjuring. Playing with magic, specifically the type of magic you're working with, mixing a bunch of stuff together, permits the mind to do this sort of thing... to itself You'll work though it eventually, I'm sure.

Do you want to be involved in black magic?

Blaming is not taking responsibility. how old is this karma? who are these remnant? That would be blaming as well. So if things don't change course, any one of these things can be blamed, right? What you've been doing now? "diving deep into magic, banishing, cord cutting rites and bought a whole lot of crystals, incense and stuff like that" is that "soft or hard"? It's different right? In the past: "Beforehand I would try to help people with lots of herbal medicines, useful exercises and just plain advice as to how to change their issues. " In the present: "I've been diving deep into magic, banishing, cord cutting rites and bought a whole lot of crystals, incense and stuff like that.... " Now you're asking if in the future you should try : "the hardline demonslaying protective magician style approach". My suggestion is: this trend is not healthy for you. Beneath the "heart". you meantioned "heart" several times **consecutively** unprompted in this thread, along with one seemingly accidental slip-up mentioning shadow-work. Yes I am familiar with this sort of "entity". It comes from the sort of magic you are attempting. I doubt you know how it works. Dis-belief will cure it. It is feeding off your desire, off of your "heart" which is engaged by the magic you are attempting. Taking personal responsibiliity for it, and recognizing it for what it is, a manifestation of your own desires, will cure it. This is not an easy thing to accomplish. The desire to be a "magical" person who can "work magic" is actually very strong "magic". That is the desire that is feeding it. That is the desire that needs to be abandoned. "Magic" is not always good. It can be good, or bad, depending. In this case, it's bad.

This sort of blame-game is a self-fulfilling-prophecy.

Which words are coming from 氣? Are soul and body being compared to concentrated "chi" and extreme softness?

Laotze has it in 3 chapters of the DDJ: 10, 42, and 55. Translation assistance here would be greatly appreciated.

It has been proposed that Laotze was a naturalist and and an atheist. This thread is to discuss occurences of "spirit" in english translations of the DDJ. Is this a spirit like a ghost? A disembodied soul? Is it something else? At the time of composition of the DDJ, lacking modern scientific knowledge of natural forces governing: birth, growth, sickness, death, germination, blossoming, producing fruit/seed moving constellations phases of the moon seasons weather etc Does it make sense for Laotze to completely avoid any "spiritual" beliefs in the manner of a naturalist atheist by today's standards?

有，名萬物之母 >>> "You", was a name given to Tao as the mother of all things. Amma Whatt featuring Vinx and Monet: "You". ... "有" , make my life a sunny day, "有" ... give me "有"

Thank you, that is a good clarification. The concern over physical gratification and charisma in the OP describes something else. And I was careful not to judge in particular, although, in general divinization, just like anything, has benefits and liabilities. The author known as "paul" writes: NIV: Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death— Does this, perhaps, explain what you were observing in yourself? It is a lofty aspiration, especially the last line. Lacking this obedience, the gains would be perceived as a loss.

The screen-name is "toward-theosis" Theos... a greek god concept.... towards a greek god concept appears to be "what they're doing exactly"

OK. According to this, Self is Nirguna Brahman, Brahman lacking all attributes in Advaita Vedanta ( radical non-duality ). Other than that, it's debated. http://www.mahavidya.ca/2015/03/04/nirguna-and-saguna-brahman/ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ātman_(Hinduism)

My inbox is open if you ever want someone to listen or share advice. Sometimes, just having someone to talk to is remarkable for releasing baggage. You won't be judged, I promise. I won't offer advice unless it's requested. Open ended offer.

Thank you for saying this. Thank you for saying this.

Since I am here late, and I cannot see the post immediately ahead of your comment, it's possible this is referring to my comments: Therefore I will repost what I said: which is neither biased nor fundementalist. Just common sense.

I'm not diagnosing anything. Please reread my posts. No signs, no symptoms = no diagnosis. This is what I said: "Are you sure it was only cbd?" Sounds like it was not only cbd. It is something else. For clarity, "dulling the senses" is a mistake. For sensory overload, perhaps anathestic, perhaps a tranquilizer, cbd probably fits these as an herbal rememdy. This is not a diagnosis. It's friendly advice in the form a perscription. If I were to diagnose, I would be saying something else.

Agreed. The audience is human. The intention is for the text to be relatable to humans. And that's why the "masculine" would be communicating dominance "penetrating-all". That's penetration. Masculine. It's primal imagery and symbolism. It's timeless. Perhaps, a person can ignore it, or move beyond these sorts of gender specific stereotypes? ... Yes. Definitely. But was that the intention of the author / source? I'm going by the english that was provided. I think it's a fair analysis based on that. Probing deeper, I think, would require knowledge of the original language and a trustworthy manuscript.

My friend, if there is a "wrong" perception that gaurantees that reality is dual. Let's not debate this OK? That would have been A LOT of cbd to produce that sort of reaction. Are you sure it was only cbd? That sort of perception is not clear, it's simple. The details are being washed-out. Flattened. Nothing wrong with that.... until there is. Daoist cultivation involving directing chi here-and-there requires clarity, and accurate sensory feedback. Misdirecting the chi is known to be harmful. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7858248/ CBD enhanced fronto-striatal connectivity and decreased limbic activity during resting state, and modulated brain activity showing task-specific patterns during different cognitive paradigms. For example, CBD increased activation relative to placebo in the parahippocampus during auditory processing, and reduced activation in this region during the processing of fearful faces. In addition, CBD decreased connectivity between fronto-limbic regions (i.e., anterior cingulate cortex and amygdala) during the processing of fearful faces and enhanced fronto-limbic-striatal connectivity (i.e., inferior frontal gyrus, dorsal striatum and posterior hippocampus) during salience processing. What does this mean? They're both good things, generally. It's why CBD is considered theraputic. But, that theraputic effect is decreased sensitivity. Which is not ideal for cultivation. The enhanced frontal-straital connectivity produces a false positive, making the practioner feel they are progressing when they are not. It's the same chemical response that occurs in long-time tai-chi practioners, but this is temporary and artificial because it's coming from the substance not the practice. Let me say that again. It's coming from the substance, not the practice. The decreased limbic activity is also "dulling the senses". A person feels they don't have physical or emotional "needs". It's not difficult to imagine how this can bring relief of anxiety and PTSD. But, this can also be described as "detachment", which is an "attainment" in meditative practice associated with progress. Again, a false positive is produced. The practioner thinks they have acheived something, and maybe they have. But if it is temporary, then it is a false positive. It's coming from the substance, not the practice. That's why I said at the beginning of the thread: "If it can't be done without chemical assitance, I think something's wrong." I think the challenge is distinguishing between "dulling the senses" and "clarity". Maybe dulling the senses helps produce a version of clarity? Maybe. For practice that does not involve moving chi, transmutation of subtle essence, maybe there is less risk? I don't know. But if the clarity requires dulling the senses, I think something is wrong.

The Self, capital "S", I think, but I could be wrong, is Saguna Brahman. Which includes all qualities. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saguna_brahman That said: In the quote you posted: He seems far away, but is ever near.He is within all, and he transcends all.... "Distant", "transcendant", and "penetrates all" is typically masculine. "Ever-near" ( aka proximal ) is typically feminine. So, it's 3/4 masculine and 1/4 feminine stereotypes / inclinations. Now looking at it in sequence to analyze the flow of what is written. He seems far away ( masculine ), but is ever near ( feminine ).He is within all ( masculine ), and he transcends all ( masculine ).... Masculine >>> Feminine >>> Masculine >>> Masculine Seems like the author intended "HE" for this.

I would very much appreciate reading more about this. Is there anything available online?

OK. There's other side effects to be aware of. False perceptions / sensations, and increased suggestability. It's a departure from reality. There's nothing wrong with that. People do that all the time: watching movies, reading books, listening to music, going to see stand-up comedy. And the suggestibility is just another way of saying "opening the mind to what is unlikely or unexpected." But mixing this departure from reality with daoist cultivation is not a good combo in my opinion. I'm not sure how cultivation would occur with one's head in the clouds. At best it's unpredictable, at worst harmful.

Compared to: Chapt 1 says: 無 was a name given.... Chapt 25 says: I don't know its name... Conclusion: The subject of 25 "There was a thing formed by chaos.... " is not 無 ??