Cleansox

Can you actually move a chakra? @dwai or anyone else with some actual experience of hindu systems?

I would say that you cultivate both, perhaps with more emphasis on the energetic aspects but you also still the mind and look at your behaviour at large (see for example the 49 barriers).

I would say, as I have before in this thread, that just because Nei Dan tradition says that "daoists that sit in oblivion and Buddhists that die while in a state of samadhi will create a yin shen", that doesn’t say that it is not possible to work with a Ming method while seated. And when you use all-dao as a source, that only stands for their opinion, and I am eagerly awaiting a validation of this point of view from an independent source. Fun fact, Damo writes that overfocus on standing postures makes the practitioner too Yin (A comprehensive guide..., page 376). The context is not yinshen vs yangshen though. Another reference, Yinshi zi jingzuo fa, in Wang Mu Foundations of internal alchemy, actually start from sitting in quiescence, getting a result that Wang Mu correllate to clearing the Breath and clearing the vessels.

Thanks for the description of that school. Could I insert here that just because one school does things in a certain way, that doesn't mean it is the only way? My school also focus on dynamic and static standing methods in a way similar to what you describe here, some of the static ones can be done in seated position as well but the seated versions are less time-efficient and not that relevant for a householder. So you are talking about opening the eight extraordinary meridians here? In Damo Mitchell's material, that is qigong/neigong. That which is specific for Zhong-Lu Nei Dan comes later, this is a process that comes before the four stages that you posted about some way back (or, depending on interpretation, the tongguan might be seen as the first step of the "laying the foundations", a step that overlaps between qigong and neidan). It is a discussion forum, so we discuss ideas. That means that if you put forth an idea that I disagree with, I will question it in a way where you have a chance to go further in to it. If you can support it, I might change my mind. In this case, that didn't happen. I can agree that Damo seems to put an emphasis on seated practices in the imagery of his books, that doesn't mean it reflects his over all teaching (which I know nothing about since I am not a student of his).

And I never said that you said that, we were discussing one specific stage if I recall right. Doesn't Qianfeng Pai do that stage seated? A question: Is there another school than WLP that interpret your quote about dully sitting as all seated practices instead of interpreting it as being lost in the void? Otherwise, your entire chain of reasoning fails on the first part, the unsupported statement that one cannot work with the Ming while seated.

And if you open that book at page 271-274, you will see a model where the LDT is situated right on the perineum itself (p. 272). He makes a very good point at p. 273: "both are correct, it just depends upon what your aims are in the practice".

Yes, the idea of culling should be to remove bad traits from the population, not just keeping the population down. Kill the rich?

I know that, I haven't argued that at all. You are the one stating that it cannot be practiced seated. I am the one stating that your quote do not support that, your quote support the notion that sitting in oblivion is not the correct method at this stage, which is not the same thing. My request here, that you give some non-WLP source for your statement that this stage cannot be practiced seated, is based on interest. I am always in search for another interesting text on the subject. I mentioned WLP because you have referred to that particular school before. You already know the answer to this 😊, and it is unlikely that someone will spell it out here. But just for this discussion: If one compares the images on pages 154+192 in White moon on the mountain peak with pages 272-274 in A comprehensive guide to Daoist Nei Gong, what conclusion could one come to?

Your Zhan Boduan quote doesn’t really say that, does it? He is writing about what should happen while practicing, or rather, what not to do while practicing. If your information comes from the WLP, then that might not be a methodology that is representative for every tradition. Do you have any sources independent from WLP that state the same?

A shrinking penis is a true sign of an advanced Nei Dan practice, so I guess we are evolving spiritually?

The critique @Antaresmentioned above is relevant for Damo's video on this subject as well, at least the free part of it: A bit more Nei Gong that Zhong-Lu Nei Dan.

I wonder if the lineage that Damo draws his Nei Dan from has its roots in the Southern School as described by Zhan Boduan. It seems like Damo has a lot of knowledge about the Nei Gong, and he seems to have a good grasp on the Xing. But his book on Nei Dan doesn't go into the replenishing, the entire reversal process that seems to be an integral part of the path to Celestial Immortality. So, can his lineage come from one of the other Nei Dan traditions, one that uses another methodology? Or, does he follow a request from his teacher and just refrain from publish that aspect of the method? Both options are likely.

Internal Martial Art

Cool. A bit opposite from the image of the area that I get from the procedure described in translated texts, but it is a huge area of practices so why not? In my tradition, the IMA changes as we work with JinDan, but is not in itself an important aspect of that procedure. It is more useful, in the later stage of practice, as a tool for integration. When it comes to other IMA's, is the martial art also the Nei Dan, or is it so that some traditions do both, parallell? If we look at the Chen family (taijiquan), I have a picture of a senior family member in a position that has no martial use but is a sibling to one of the positions my tradition use for a specific purpose in building the Nei Dan process. And Qianfeng Pai has its own family IMA-style, as does quite a few others (including several Long Men Pai lineages). My belief though, is that the spiritual path of Nei Dan did not evolve from the martial side, but again, not being a historian I might be wrong here.

Manifestation is sometimes called leakage, or side doors. Can't really recall any text I have read that say we create Elixir in order to have more sex or become warriors. And if I recall right, we activate the real dantian in order to be able to work with the Yuan "substances", so it is not a result in it self. Your studies must have gone deeper than mine.

Didn't we agree earlier in this thread that there is no book that can be read as a manual on this subject? My point was just about the martial/scholar fire breath. Yes.

And manifestation, especially physical, is...? In my opinion, you are widening the subject here in a way that moves beyond the classics, so I will leave that.

Without zhenyi true intention neidan methods makes no sense. This is normally developed by xin methods, and is different from the yi normally developed by daoyin or basic level IMA.

The method should be to collect the one yang hidden in water and use the heche to start the transformation into the external medicine. There are probably seated practices for this.

Using the index of the book would have been easier, followed by opening the book at page 189.

When it manifest physically, isn't that post heaven?

So people say. But if that list would be the same for people who have developed the "qigong body" and for people who are into Nei Dan proper, then that list would be without value. Is there any classic text, translated into english, that lists any of these? The ones I have read seems to focus on internal experiences as signs.

Actually, it would be more interesting if you put up a list of things that would verify a practitioners accomplishment in Nei Dan, especially compared to a similar list for a person who is accomplished in Nei Gong, so that we can see that there is no overlap between the two. Teeth grown back? Grey hair turned black? External genitals shrunk until non-existent? Nezhia-body?

This is the great thing about a forum. People from different backgrounds meet, compare, argue, bitch, and troll each other.

Noone but Void talk about that. You can see for yourself, in old threads on the subject. I have collected som in my ppd.