old3bob

Btw, I'm not looking for your judgement. I'd say for wu-wei to be in effect intrinsic Dharma has to be in effect, and not most forms of conditioning as you mention. Shit only happens when intrinsic Dharma is not in effect with beings. In a pure realm Dharma and karma actions/results are instantaneous & spontaneous, thus shit can not take place there; same with beings in a pure state. I'd also say that "natural flow" has two directions not just one, for example one is like the effect of water following per the laws of gravity or the laws of samsara, the other is going against the lesser laws of gravity or samsara. (thus the need for definition per context as I mentioned earlier)

that saying about letting nature take its course when human beings or other beings are involved needs context, for instance shall madmen be allowed to run amuck with destruction? If there was only the most simple elemental nature and no human, astral, or casual beings in "nature" then yes only the most elemental type of nature will take its course with no beings involved who have aspects of what is natural or Dharmic to them as more complex beings.

it's late so just a partial reply for now, I'd say the quote is partly right, "the good person does not imagine" the good person knows beyond normal knowing without a shadow of doubt, otherwise it would all be the "vanity of Vanities" . The historic Buddha knew that he went "beyond the beyond" (beyond the 8th liberation) from the witness he gave, did he not (?) and knew and said in realization, "wonder of Wonders!

Note FYI: "According to Hindu legends, Shiva, the god of devastation and rebirth, resides at the pinnacle of this famous mountain named Kailasa. Mount Kailasa is considered in many sects of Hinduism as heaven, the ultimate destination of souls and the holy center of the world".

that name reminded of Bubba Free John who pulled off a personality cult in the 70's and 80's... "Bubba’s downfall In April 1985, the San Francisco Chronicle ran a series of articles describing Bubba as the leader of a coercive cult. One month later, the Today Show aired its own exposé (transcript here). The accusations were the same that we’ve seen them leveled at so many gurus since then: sex with disciples. Drug abuse. Physical abuse. Rampant narcissism. Entrapment of people who tried to leave his community, and more. How do we make sense of all this? Lane offers one possibility: …it may well be that much of Da’s deep psychological insight into the human condition didn’t stem from his self-proclaimed “enlightenment” but from observing day to day his own neurotic behavior and his own self-centered interactions with those closest to him. Eventually I accepted the credibility of the charges against Bubba. My illusion turned into disillusionment — and then into a healing insight that I retain to this day: Never confuse the messenger with the message". or a false messenger can sometimes use a true message for corrupt personal advantage... and there is also the possibility that a true message (with inherent power) could turn the tables on a false messenger trying to take advantage of it..

and someone else's realization, no matter its level, is not ours even if we can quote it word for word doctrine wise or in any other way.

a few days is not a long time...and a nudge for some can act like a push over a cliff, and how many thousands of dead point that out? I don't know but far more than a few.

and there is "sunyata" that many Buddhists define or is pointed too as non-dual: "sunyata, in Buddhist philosophy, the voidness that constitutes ultimate reality; sunyata is seen not as a negation of existence but rather as the undifferentiation out of which all apparent entities, distinctions, and dualities arise".

since many Buddhist schools and teachers speak of the same "Buddha nature" in all beings then I'd say that that doesn't mean various dualities of Buddha nature. (or non-existence of Buddha nature)

not really since there aren't vast differences...being that most have non-duality pointers and many similar meanings about the masters and ways of their schools. If I had included Abrahamic schools then the differences and meanings would be vast.

well at this site (as has been repeated thousands of times) most folks here usually mean spiritual enlightenment/liberation as in Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism and other spiritual ways, thus it seems your argument is apparently only for the sake of argument considering the common context that exists here?

the OP did mention the context of "enlightened" and master together.

at some point we also have to ask ourselves how it is that many of us being more or less blind to the "mystical" (to use a term) can we see that which we can not normally see? Although if one is blessed with mystic vision or lent such a boon then a great soul will appear as all golden radiant light or even be completely flooded with pure white light and those are telling and can not be faked. On the other hand we can proclaim this or that master is fake even if we are not sure. (many of the other things mentioned may be of use but not 100% revealing)

on the flip side a real master (as in enlightened) can easily spot us, more so when we are faking it; and it's more up to them than us if there is going to be a meeting...btw even an enlightened soul has to have a little bit of ego to have an interface in this world.

Well Mark do you think or have come across it in Buddhist texts that the historic Buddha saw that there is only one of us in countless quadrillions of forms which are all relative?

most every father and mother has hopes for their children and work to make those hopes come true...

I'll take a recurve over one of those complex compound contraptions...

so it goes for most of us in the "world" but this world is not the only reality which is what I was indirectly trying to get at...

so when we are externally armed with guns or whatever we are more or less in some kind of or form of stress in preparation for some kind of or form of potential violence.

the metric system makes more sense but I still like the old way of inches and pounds in the US. And tool makers oblige by selling tools in both formats, and I can see why if they can make extra money off the situation.

Karma can not be cheated but it is not the only factor, for in most all religions that report of a Supreme Being that Being says, "Fear Not". Btw, note that in some depictions of the wheel there is a Buddha in every realm and also in the realm beyond realms. "Among the six realms, the human realm is considered to offer the best opportunity to practice the dharma. In some representations of the wheel, there is a buddha or bodhisattva depicted within each realm, trying to help sentient beings find their way to nirvana". I'm not a Buddhist but I get this saying...

Wrong, and take profound sounding quote with lots of grains of salt, for "they" will surely go some where on the wheel (thus realms A-Z) which is not based on another human beings judgement.

Right on, those are key points! otherwise the "presumptive are leading the presumptive"

or maybe a tall, friendly blue eyed hobbit in dwelling

sounds simple enough but,