old3bob

Thanks for sharing your descriptive and personal reflections Bindi! Btw. in your studies what teachings have you come across for the end game of the casual or evolving soul body? (while teachings on the Self say it never has and never does evolve for then it could it also devolve...)

Yep, been a long time since I read that one...

so we can say cats have Buddha nature or Taoist nature....

consider substituting the somewhat mechanical sounding word "transmission" with Grace and try going from there...

well said, I'd comment on this paragraph, "It seems equally impossible to know whether or not a lineage or any member of it is enlightened either; and when we claim another is enlightened or not, we present ourself as a qualified observer and arbiter capable of assessing such" I'd say it is possible but not by "normal" means with or per the problems you mention, but by esoteric/mystical means, for the Self knows the Self by the Self which may sound like circular mumbo jumbo but it is not... (and such being intimate would not be made into a public spectacle)

Another tough lady in a tough time in a tough territory that few have probably heard of: Esther Hobart Morris, Justice of the Peace and Icon of Women's Rights, by ABBY DOTTERER WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 4, 2019 In late 1869, the territory of Wyoming was ahead of the rest of the United States in its strides for gender equality. Fifty years before the passage of the 19th amendment to the U.S. Constitution, women in the territory were granted the right to vote and, beginning with Esther Morris, the territory’s first female justice of the peace, to hold public office. Esther Hobart Morris was in her late 50s when she was appointed justice of the peace in South Pass City, Wyoming Territory, in 1870. 'n performing these duties I do not know as I have neglected my family any more than in ordinary shopping,' she wrote the following year, 'and I must admit that I have been better paid for the services rendered than for any I have ever performed.' Wikipedia. While Morris is notable because of her excellent performance in this office and her advocacy for women’s suffrage both in the territory and, later, around the nation, much of her fame comes from something she almost certainly didn’t do. Long after Morris’s death, Fremont County legislator Herman Nickerson and University of Wyoming Professor Grace Hebard claimed that Morris deserved credit for effective lobbying in 1869 that resulted in the introduction of the women’s suffrage bill at the territorial legislature. This, however, seems not to have been what happened. Born Esther Hobart McQuigg, in Tioga County, New York, on Aug. 8, 1814, she was orphaned at age 11 and apprenticed to a seamstress. She then, according to a brief biography at the website of the U.S. Capitol, became a successful hat-maker and businesswoman. In 1841, she married civil engineer Artemus Slack and gave birth to her first child, Edward Archibald or “Archy,” a year later. Three years after the wedding, her husband died and Morris moved to Peru, Ill. to settle his estate. Doing this, she faced difficulties as women were not allowed to own or inherit property, the Architect of the Capitol writes. She re-married in 1850 to local merchant John Morris and gave birth to twin boys, Robert and Edward. In 1869, the family moved to gold-rush boom town South Pass City in the new Wyoming Territory, where John Morris opened a saloon. The “terror of all rogues” Esther Morris had been living in South Pass City for less than a year before her appointment as justice of the peace in early 1870 at the age of 55. During her eight and a half months in office as a judge, she heard nearly thirty cases. Wyoming Territorial Secretary Edwin M. Lee wrote later that Morris’s court sessions were “characterized by a degree of gravity and decorum rarely exhibited in the judicature of border precincts.” He also said that during her administration, an “improvement in the tone of public morals was noticeable.” An April 1870 piece in Frank Leslie’s Illustrated Newspaper—a national publication—about Morris’s first day in the position focused, first, on her clothing. She wore “a calico gown, worsted breakfast-shawl, green ribbons in her hair, and a green neck-tie.” Later, however, the newspaper noted that Morris offered “infinite delight to all lovers of peace and virtue” and nicknamed her the “terror of all rogues.” In January 1871, Morris was invited to a national women’s suffrage convention in Washington, D.C. but did not attend. Instead, she wrote a letter to prominent suffragist Isabella Beecher Hooker which was read aloud before the convention. She wrote that her appointment, due to the circumstances in the political climate, “transpired to make [her] position as a justice of the peace a test of a woman’s ability to hold public office.” She also wrote that she felt that her work was “satisfactory” though she regretted that she was “not better qualified to fill the position. Like all pioneers,” she noted, “I labored more in faith and hope.” By 1890, when she was 75, Morris was well known in Wyoming as an advocate of woman suffrage. In statehood celebrations that July, she presented the flag of the new state to Gov. Francis Warren on behalf of the women of Wyoming. She died at 87 on April 2, 1902, in Cheyenne. South Pass City in 1870. When Morris served there as justice of the peace, it was still a mining camp made up mostly of men who spent most of their social time in saloons. William Henry Jackson photo, USGS. A reputation grows More than seventeen years after her death, however, her reputation suddenly began to grow. Herman Nickerson, who had been one of the early pioneers of South Pass City and later served many years as a state legislator representing Fremont County, published in the Lander-based Wyoming State Journal his first-hand account of a supposed tea party. Longtime Fremont County legislator Herman Nickerson and University of Wyoming Prof. Grace Raymond Hebard marked a great many historic sites around the state. American Heritage Center. According to Nickerson, Morris hosted a tea party in 1869 for South Pass City’s two candidates for Wyoming’s territorial council––William Bright and Nickerson himself. In front of a crowd of dozens of people, Morris supposedly extracted promises from both men that whichever of them won the seat would introduce a women’s suffrage bill to the new council. Bright was elected, proposed the bill and on Dec. 10, 1869, Territorial Gov. John Campbell signed it into law “[T]o Mrs. Esther Morris,” Nickerson wrote, “is due the credit and honor of advocating and originating women's suffrage in the United States.” He explained that “there were about forty ladies and gentlemen present” at the party. At the end of his account, he noted that he did not write it for “political purposes” but “to correct historical misstatements.” But Nickerson appears to have been making some misstatements of his own. His account in the Wyoming State Journal implies that only he, the Republican, and Bright, the Democrat, were running for a single seat on the territorial council. In fact, seven candidates were running from Sweetwater County, where South Pass City was located at the time, for three seats in the upper house in the new territory’s legislative body. Bright was the third highest vote-getter with 747 votes, and so won a seat on the council. Nickerson came in fifth, and did not. Bright and all the members of both houses of that first territorial legislature were Democrats. One reason the suffrage bill succeeded may have been their desire to embarrass the governor, a Republican. But he surprised them by signing the bill. There is no record of any meeting between Morris and Bright before the election. After the bill was passed, however, Morris and her son did pay a call on Bright back in South Pass City, to thank him for his efforts. The son, Robert Morris, wrote a letter about the visit to The Revolution, a weekly magazine that advocated for women’s rights. While she was alive, Morris credited Bright with passage of the bill. In her 1871 letter to Hooker, she wrote that “to William H. Bright belongs the honor of presenting the woman suffrage bill.” In that letter, too, there was no mention of a tea party. Herman Nickerson and Grace Raymond Hebard put up a marker in South Pass City in 1920 naming Esther Morris as the 'author of female suffrage in Wyoming.' An early version, left, and Nickerson, right, with a later version. American Heritage Center. Nickerson and Hebard While Morris did not credit herself for the passage of the suffrage bill, others, long after she and Bright had both passed away, claimed it for her. After Nickerson’s account was published, University of Wyoming professor and historian Grace Raymond Hebard rallied by his side, hoping to credit Morris for the introduction of the bill. Nickerson and Hebard were friends, and had spent many days and miles marking historical sites around Wyoming. He may have been looking to advance the status of Wyoming’s Republican party at a time when women were 18 months away from winning the vote nationwide.Nickerson, that is, may have been hoping to extend some credit for the passage of the original bill to his own party. For her part, Hebard was a staunch supporter of women’s rights and Esther Morris made a convincing hero. Contemporary historians now agree, however, that Hebard made things up from time to time. Historian Virginia Scharff labels Hebard a “self-described feminist” who did everything she could to “stake women’s claim to space, to historical significance.” Grace Raymond Hebard in an undated photo. She spread H. G. Nickerson’s story of Esther Morris’s tea party widely after he published it in 1920, and it continued to spread widely long after her death. American Heritage Center. Hebard clearly championed Morris as the “Mother of Woman Suffrage.” According to Hebard, Morris and Bright held discussions about women’s rights around fireplaces in their homes. Hebard credited these conversations with giving Bright the inspiration and the final courage to introduce the women’s suffrage bill. In later stories Hebard changed the tea party into a dinner party. In 1920, Hebard and Nickerson had a stone marker erected in South Pass City memorializing the “Site of Office and Home of Esther Morris, First Woman Justice of the Peace, Author of Female Suffrage in Wyoming.” ....

when one realizes that the True Power has them (and not the other way around) and which they have aligned themselves with, then they know that their personal desires for manipulating power were nothing more than dust in the wind or perhaps like Solomon said, "vanity of Vanities" (and he sure had a lot of power at one time!)

The term non-dualism (also the terms qualified non-dualism and duality) have been around for a very long time in traditional "eastern" ways! Meaning a very long time before some or certain "western" intellectuals or wana-be types co-opted it and set up schools of dubious doctrine; so does that now mean that all non-dualists are in the same pot as that? I'd say no by a long shot; and granted proven precautions need be taken with teachers and schools but neither are all yogi's, guru's, Christians, shrinks, etc.. in the same pots because some have co-opted aspects of those teachings for ego driven designs, or fanatical like misunderstandings, thus we have some bad apples making the all the barrels look bad. Such has come into play for just about every "way" that has come down the pike but to me that doesn't mean being a die-hard cynic about such situations is the best course to take, and I think its fair to ask where will such an attitude get a person? Btw, there is a saying in Buddhism that I don't fully remember at the moment along the lines of: "no blame" and also one in Taoism along the lines of not striving with others fosters no blame. Any one should feel free to further propound on those sayings if they'd like to since its early in the morning here and I'm not that up on them anyway...

some of us remember this variation on one...(and I was never much into bell bottom pants )

I'd say that last sentence is more or true if taken as or is based only on a conceptional/intellectual manifesto which most anyone could spin up. (and which btw. could have certain value at that level) Anyway from many of your posts Bindi it sounds like you're striving to put most "non-duality" people or schools in the same and incomplete pot as that? Whereas true non-duality realization (aka. as Self realization in the small lotus of the heart as pointed to in the Upanishads or some other teachings) does not and can not be limited in that way; namely empty of meaning and as an "unguided rocket fired off into space".

meaning there are not really a bunch of independent super dupers from each other with there own designs with the realization of Self

how many folks would accept that there is only one of us in all of us, being that it seems some want to be independent super dupers...

it is not of mind, or definable by mind. (that is in Hinduism's definition of mind which does not match up with the one's often heard in Buddhism) So what is a mind supposed to do if that is the case, most schools say prepare as best you can. Btw, to use an analogy: a baby bird pecking on its shell from the inside to get free attracts something that also pecks on that shell from the outside.

Some schools finalize with "sat-chit-ananda", an ocean of bliss and the 1st and purest of energy! And some finalize with the Self as being source of all Shakti (or "cosmic prana") and thus beyond all categories, even Satchitananda...(if you will such can be found pointed out in the Chandogya Upanishad and others. Btw, and while getting way ahead of the game, I've studied that basic yama, niyama and karma yoga must be fulfilled by us before any of that more advanced stuff will stick...

my goodness what big fangs it has!!

wow, black widow like rats! Speaking of black widows I imagine your spider version is bigger than those in the US? One day my daughter caught a huge black widow spider in a can and said to me, "hey dad what kind of spider is this?" when i saw it I freaked knowing that if she had been bitten it could be really bad!! Thankfully that didn't happen and the spider was released back into the brush. Another story was once shown on TV about a guy that suffered from a bite or his mate did and it was bad. After that he became a black widow spider killer, obsessively seeking them out and smashing them in the evenings for revenge. Kind of a creepy and risky endeavor to me... (who needs bad spider karma?!)

quoted from: "Responding to Praise and Blame" by Vishvapani Sep 15, 2012 Buddha, Ethics, Featured (Btw, I'd say this is pretty universal for all ways, not just Buddhism) "...As anyone involved in teaching Buddhism in the West will know, the Buddhist view that anger should not be expressed raises understandable concerns among people encountering it for the first time. “Does that mean I must repress my experience? I’ve been a doormat all my life and I need to be assertive and express what I am feeling!” The answer is in the reason the Buddha gives for not getting defensive: ‘That would only be a hindrance to you.’ In other words, the emotional hooks that join us to emotions like anger also fasten us to painful and reactive ways of thinking and, in the end, these hurt us (to say nothing of the people with whom we are angry). Another version of the problem of denial affects more experienced practitioners, who can use this teaching to avoid saying difficult things. We may even hide our emotional responses from ourselves beneath a blanket of meditative calm so that we can preserve a sense of ourselves as ‘good Buddhists’. In fact, the Buddha’s stress is on being honest and truthful, and presumably this can include honesty about our feelings. But there is a world of difference between telling someone that you are feeling upset, and bawling them out! The Buddha is not saying that we should be entirely passive, and simply accept whatever is thrown at us. He suggests that that the monks should indeed respond to criticism, and he cites a case where the criticism is incorrect, saying that we should calmly offer a true account. To be fair, I think this needs to be supplemented by saying that when we believe a criticism to be true we should accept it and admit our faults. So there is a case for debate and disagreement among Buddhists and between Buddhists and followers of other beliefs, but the key is how you go about it. As one western Buddhist teacher puts it: ‘Better honest collision rather than dishonest collusion,’ but reasonable discussion is better than either..." This also brings to mind for me an extreme example, namely that Jesus did not go crazy when Judas betrayed him; with deep betrayal being about the hardest thing a human being can deal with and hopefully come out the other side in one piece without lasting damage.

will a cleaned up dead rat work as well? (the fat one that stole all of Maddie's cookies) Btw and FYI those rats down-under might be as big as a cat and a lot meaner....

nor btw is it titled Kundalini ponderings, but since we are mostly informal at the site some morphing on or to subjects is not uncommon among members. I'd also say that one could in an academic or general reference pointer like way mention various schools and its teachings but unless they had approval from a school/teacher to get into conveying certain details doing so would be un-kosher imo and in many others.

Friedrich Nietzsche the greater the knowledge the greater the responsibility not to error in relation to it... thus not an easy row to hoe but possible.

Borrowing broad concepts which originally and largely come from Hinduism's schools is one thing...but as far as assumptions (sounding like a dismissal?) per assumptions, well I'd caution about making them, being that certain schools and lineages have been practicing and developing associated yoga's for thousands of years which have fostered true and rare Kundalini masters and knowers of the Self which is beyond any form including the subtle body. (and I'm not guessing on that)

Btw, as far as I know to Saivites Shiva (or Siva) is Supreme Being or Brahman, with Brahman being beyond all categories which then comes into manifestation as first Shakti of the purest energy and the dance of that energy represented by Lord Nataraja, along with or through Lords Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Btw Saivites have several major schools or sects and they don't agree on everything although they do agree on a great many of things. I think most any discussion about Shiva should include such credit to & some basic info about Saivites... which one could then do their own verification and research on.

Hey Mark, To me reading through certain convoluted Buddhist texts is sometimes like trying to cut one's way through a dense jungle with a machete. Such may be clear as a bell to you and some others but I venture to say not all of us. On the other hand many of the short, simple but profound sayings of Zen, Taoism and parts of what Nagarjuna and the historic Buddha said are clear as a bell to me...go figure or maybe not. Btw, why some Buddhists reject "Buddha nature" is very telling to me...

and of course that is the Buddhist take that you forgot to mention nor applicable to the points i brought up...

true if you no longer have any karma, ego or identification as a human, astral or causal being to deal with, thus a tiny percentage.