old3bob

well I've done some of that pretzel-ing myself but it doesn't really work that well with the wide and sometimes very drastic differences among religions even if ultimately they all or mostly derive from on pretzel.

I'd say most "Eastern religions" and many of its ways do not correlate or match up all that well with major parts of orthodox Christianity. Thus many (new age like) attempts to conflate same could twist one's mind into a pretzel even if there are some correlations that do match up. Btw, "the last will be first, and the first will be last" Matthew 19:30. Is a saying I appreciate but what does it mean to me? My take is that the first to manifest will be the last to return to the unmanifest, or in other words the very first and purest light and sound (aka the "Word" in Christianity) to manifest will be the last to return to "Mystery" (a term used in Taoism) or the unmanifest which the human mind can not really wrap its head around except as a concept. Btw #2, Ime Master Jesus is like both an awesome indomitable "lion" of unbreakable golden/white light spiritual will power yet He can also be like a gentle shepherd with us human beings (with many of us that are like lambs or sheep in comparison to the more evolved souls that are like lions in their will power that is in alignment with the greater power) per or in an appropriate context.

One form of heavy duty punishment is the "silent treatment"/isolation, its a tough one to deal with for us human beings who many would probably prefer someone getting on our case if need be in comparison!

We hear and see examples of people extending unconditional forgiveness for harm done to them but sometimes without there also being the very important step of some type of repentance by the one that did them harm! Anyway I copied the excerpt below as an example about that from a much longer text...(with Bible related sayings although I think not limited to Abrahamic religions) "But wait! I missed a step. Something VERY important has to happen first. Something that EVERYONE forgets when they talk about MERCY and forgiveness. Luke 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and IF HE REPENT, forgive him. Did he say to forgive your brother for his sins against you? NO! He said REBUKE HIM! Judge him for his sins against you, and TELL HIM HE WAS WRONG! And IF HE REPENTS, IF HE REPENTS THEN, and ONLY THEN, FORGIVE HIM! That’s what He said. IF HE REPENT is in that scripture. And it’s there for a reason. “forgiving” a brother without him first repenting to you, is tantamount to “forgiving” a shark for biting your arm off, as it swims around for a bigger piece. (not a very good example imo since a shark is not human and biting is in its nature) But hold on, you say – Christ said to forgive a brother SEVENTY TIMES SEVEN – and should we do no less? You’re absolutely right! We should do EXACTLY what Christ said and FORGIVE THEM EACH TIME! But wait… in the very next verse here it says… Verse 4: And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him. For EACH AND EVERY ONE of those SEVEN TIMES in that day that he sinned against you, he has to turn to you and say “I REPENT!“ or, in our language ”I am sorry! I was wrong!” and THEN – ONLY then, mind you – are you to forgive him! " Then again there is also the aspect or act of not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given, and thus not easy to deal with also "seventy times seven" !

most everything has a political aspect of some kind, (good or bad) no getting around that, including thinking that it doesn't ! fear of or crossing those in power like dictators is adharmic politics in action...

another paraphrased tangent about punishment: Jesus stopped a crowd of people that wanted to stone a woman to death who had been 'naughty' by saying, "he who is without sin cast the first stone" but no one in crowd could do so. Soon followed by him saying to her privately, "go your way and sin no more". so about 180 degrees off from the earlier quote from Luke although in a very different context, yet I'd say is something think about/realize compared to the pro-judgement mentioned in the op. and also in some points that it sounded to me like some were trying to get across. (?)

for human beings and all other beings there are dharmic rules or laws and related consequences if broken...thus not so different in result. The "kindness to the unkind" aspect you speak of hopefully kicks into the awareness of the offender quickly or at least after eons...

like every vow and precept that an order has. Annihilation of ego is one thing but that is not annihilation of Self or Spirit which is not on a slippery slope and may be exacting or compassionate depending on the case...(which btw is not really comprehensible to the human mind since same is beyond it)

deep diplomatic thinking as usual on your part Steve.... then again we dont' have to over think a case where student (new or advanced) breaks the vows or precepts of an order that they belong to is not automatically forgiven by the lineage holder unless they go through some type of repentance or corrections of varying degrees depending on the offense....and if they don't do that they are simply kicked out, or maybe worse karma than that will come their way.

Wow, that is incredible and another example among countless others that shows how lust for power corrupts...

bummer, what about forest service type regs on that?

well there is that saying about "no blame" which is more or less transcendent but when there are two parties I'd say there will be an "I" with an associated "give", thus no getting around that karmic situation unless one is actually transcendent and not of just of misplaced wishful thinking of themselves as being holy or above it all.

and perhaps some folks would comment on the last sentence, namely: Then again there is also the aspect or act of not burning oneself up with bitterness if repentance was never given, and thus not easy to deal with also "seventy times seven" ! which could also be lurking in other ways or degrees subconsciously for a long time...

you didn't ask me but I'd say no, never do any kind of advanced practices without true guru guidance/insight, why, because the farther one climbs the farther the potential fall ! Thus a step by step process along with a rock solid foundation that is also continually practiced or made stronger. Btw many may claim to be true guru but true guru or Sat Guru is rare.

Thank you Mr. Cash !!

Thank you Steve.

I did a quick look for the video mentioned and didn't find it? Anyway someone went to a lot of trouble to make a touching video if that is what happened...

where is at?

Some eastern ways and or teachers proclaim everything is perfect.... I'd say that is true and dandy for the Transcendent that is perfect and "beyond" suffering, it not so true and dandy for those suffering and short of Transcendent Freedom/Being. It's nuts to me to hear of the denial of suffering as being non-existent (aka intellectual by-passing) since it is a core teaching to overcome forms of suffering for most eastern way students and to also help others overcome same. Anyhow one can walk around all day long quoting so and so and say, "all is perfect" but I'd say that is not real (or of an actual realization) until it is so via attainment of Transcendent Freedom/Being.

Why is Lord Shiva called Neelkanth? During the churning of the cosmic ocean (Samudra Manthan), a deadly poison known as Halahala emerged, powerful enough to destroy the universe. To protect all of creation, Shiva selflessly consumed the poison, holding it in his throat. His neck turned blue from its impact, earning him the name Neelkanth, the one with the blue throat.

and certain brands of beer...but not Modelo imo.

true from just or only varying human perspectives, and I'd say that if only varying human perspectives were possible then we'd be SOL to ever know, be satisfied, and rest in a greater truth and beingness/source that is beyond change, corruption, ups and downs, etc..

Thanks, btw who doesn't suffer in one way or another over the adharmic or evil in the world including self realized saints and masters? (that feel for their students and all beings)

the working of karma is perfect but karma itself veils the perfect....

right, thanks