Zen Pig

"Those who dance are considered mad by those who cannot hear the music"-

Will Power is mostly how we think life should be. Like on the first of the year, making a promise to use all of our will power to work out, loose weight, give up smoking etc. While we can white knuckle it for a while, most of us can't make it last. Intent, on the other hand, just happens, when it happens, and it seems to last. For me, Will Power is what we try to make happen. Intent is what we know will happen, and we just let it happen.

good metaphor. when my thinking mind is very silent during sitting meditation, i have seen that I am still dreaming. dreaming is not just done in sleep, but 24/7. it is just that our waking thinking mind is outshining the dream mind, (not that there is two minds, it is just one thing, IMO). Kind of like lighting a candle in the dark, and seeing it a long way off, compared to lighting a candle during the day with the sun shining. for me, the thinking part of mind is like the sun shining on the candle which would still be giving off light, only not noticed during with the sun shining. The crazy part of this is that my dreams are no longer negative. have not had a nightmare in decades. so still searching as to the nature of negative thoughts. a work in progress. thanks for the comment

so true. in real combat. the expected can become the unexpected,........ and the unexpected can just be...........

really. names for things are just names. who gives a bloody rats ass what others might think or say? accept yourself, and accept that your ideas are subject to change. or editing. keep an open, "i don't know mind." and for god's sake, keep humor in the face of fear.

I do not disbelieve that you have lots of experiences, that cannot be put into words. For me, the only metaphor i can use is the direct experience of the color red. we can define red in scientific terms a frequency wave length range, but my direct experience, or how I see the color red might be completely different in how you experience red. both are true, and both are not true. for me, i have no problem with other people experiencing or understanding something that is not my experience. But, my experience, is mine. I own it. So my experience of God, for me, transcends anything I could actually talk about. much like the metaphor of my experience of the color red. we can agree on something called red, but we cannot actually experience each others own direct experience. words are strange. they are not good or bad. they are just words. that's all I know so far, might change anytime.

If it is a view point, then it is not god. just my two cents from the peanut gallery

this seems to be common with folks who meditate for a long time. I no longer read "spiritual" books, but that is mostly because 99 percent are crap. the 1 percent that are not, can help, but I have read as much as I need right now. Of course that might change. when I had my first Kensho or "seeing into the suchness of life", I lost interest in most things people are really interested in, but after a few years came full circle, back to living life. I just no longer take life, or our ideas as serious as i use to. small steps. meditation grows in inches.

yes Shubin, i tend to agree. translation is difficult at best. it is even more difficult when colored with culture bias, or social beliefs. but with focus, and patience, one can start to understand to more subtle nuances.

don't mean to butt in on this, because I am an old white guy living in the mountains of northern Colorado. USA, but your discussion reminded me of a great professor of animal intelligence who said, "If a Lion could understand and speak the English language, we still would never be able to understand him". translation is dependent on our cultural social upbringing. we stick our own words into what we think the original language meant. We could never understand the cultural social life of a Lion, and he could never understand ours. life is magic.

What are you searching for? Why are you searching for "it"? for power? for immortality? Or out of fear for the unknown?, or to Know for just Knowing? or for some other reason. Or maybe for no reason? Rhetorical question's just to self reflect, no need to answer, or not to answer. it is all fine. Just curious. cheers. (by the way, i don't argue with folks. just interested)

The whole idea behind the mind experiment, or "gedankenexperiments", of Shroedinger's cat , was that in the quantum state the cat is Both alive and dead at the same time. much like the light slit experiment, where light can be Both a wave and particle at the same time, and has been demonstrated and reproduced in labs many times. So can something be both "real and un-real " , or True and False at the same time? This is an ancient question, and certainly not of modern making. How or Why does it happen, (or not happen), haven't a clue. But then again, we are socialized to believe in western reductionist materialism. can't help it. the best I have ever done, was drill little holes in my belief box, so I could glimpse the bigger picture.

interesting. I love discussions about what is, and is not truth, or can we even know truth. for me, I haven't a clue., but that doesn't stop me from looking, enjoying this grand adventure. or as the old turtle said to the emperors guard, "I am quite happy laying here in the mud" LOL

yes, Jesus had doubt, which in zen is the basis for wisdom. "Only don't know" as Seung Sahn use to say. From the ancient Greeks, came the question, "Can one ever know anything for sure"? This epistemology, or study of knowing became the foundation of modern scientific methodology. Of course modern science, like modern religions are maintained by humans, and we humans need to feel in control and that we Know for sure. hence the modern scientism, or belief in science, and modern religious zealots. we can have an amazing Kensho or the seeing into the essence or seeing the "suchness of life", which is a flash of knowing. but that to, is a subjunctive experience, and in my experience just the tip of the unknowable ice burg. In the end, I ask myself, who would ever want to know everything? how boring would that be? I see the universe as an infinite well of play.

for me, waking mind, or rational conditioned mind is not separate from what we in the west call, "sub-conscious mind" (or as don juan would call the "second attention") it is all one thing, as for me, God is one thing. I like the metaphor that goes something like this, "if God was the beginning of all things. then where did he/she get the supplies for the universe?" I doubt there was a "God's Home Depot" somewhere that the universe was built from. The universe is a part of God, everything I see is God. This does not mean that I am a nihilistic "no-thing" as many of the neo-non-duality folks believe in. I am both not separate from anything else in the universe, and also absolutely unique" which the rational mind has problems with because we are conditioned from birth to think in terms of yes or no. true, not true. real- unreal. the paradox of life is amazing.

Great questions. from my personal experience, acupuncture for depression or even manic depression, (bi polar) can be treated, and can be controlled by a competent acupuncturist. I have a family member who was diagnosed with bi-polar condition, and our acupuncturist was great. for one thing, mental conditions do not have the stigma in eastern medicine that they do in western medicine. in eastern medicine, it is only seen as chi being blocked, and with good treatment and some herbal medicine, this condition was completely controlled. not saying that in every instance it can be controlled, but my family member was diagnosed as being bi-polar and the doctors attempted to give her Lamotrigine which makes one a zombie. now days she is working full time, engaged in life. she goes back to our acupuncturist about twice a month, but the cost of that is less than the co-pay to a western doctor, and the co-pay on the drug . (note, i am not anti-western medicine. it has a place, and is needed. I only wish that our country would merge both eastern medicine that has been around for thousands of years, with western medicine, but big pharma is likely not going to let that happen anytime soon)

no voices, only the wonder of living. like the voiceless wonder of your first fuck. or the feeling of waking up and seeing it is , and has always been perfect, even the fear, the pain, the shit. just like being in a dream, and seeing that you are dreaming, and not taking it so serious. not that a dream is un-real, but it is also not as real as we think it is. that kind of feeling.

I had a dream years ago, where I was climbing up a very high tower trying to escape some kind of monster. I ended up hanging hundreds of feet in the air, grabbing onto a steel bar, there was only an abyss to fall into. I was stuck, and fearful. All at once, I saw that I just could let go. I let go and fell, all the while laughing my ass off. It was wonderful.

while not into magic as a practice, I can comment on lucid dreams. after sitting in meditation for years, every day, My dreams changed to being lucid. did not "do" anything to make this happen, and at first it surprised me. I then came to see that this is nothing special, most folks who have any kind of long term meditation practice can end up with there dreams lucid. From my dreaming I see both the so called, "dream world" and the "real world" as being very much alike. In fact, i no longer know what the words, "real and un-real" mean other than a mental place holder or belief we are socialized to accept. One of my lucid dreams started off as the "being naked in public" dream, where I am nude, and no one else seems to notice, except me. common dream for many. then I knew I was dreaming, and decided to have some fun, and started to shout to everyone "Hay! look at me, I am buck ass naked" . most folks did not pay attention, but one man saw me and started to laugh. I stuck my dream hand through his chest, and he dissipated like a mist. I immediately knew that I did something wrong. Because although this was a dream, there was still a part of "realness" about it. still feel bad for that screw up.

sounds like we are saying the same thing. I had to work a lot of this stuff out by myself, as I have never found a good site, or book or discussion on Intuition, or intent. but the idea that conscious thought is part of the process makes sense, as I don't see the different levels of consciousness as separate. For me, the whole idea of Newtonian cause and effect was developed in order to explain action and reaction, but I see that every effect is a cause, and every cause is an effect, much like the metaphorical spider web, where each movement both is effected by other movements, and causes other movements, in a seamless fluid dance. (so to speak)

Hi guys, newbie here, with just a couple thoughts from the peanut gallery, so here goes. I like what Shunryu Suzuki said about sitting meditation, and it has helped me. he says to "sit, to only sit", without any expectations of anything, without wanting or not wanting to accomplish anything, only sitting. For me, that little thing in my head that wanted something, or wanted something to stop, like thoughts, was the very thing that kept the thinking mind active. So if a thought comes, (and I have been sitting every day for years, and thoughts still arise), I just see them like someone else said, " like a cloud floating over" no big deal. And yes the mind will slowly settle down. This took many years, and meditation for me is not an instant thing, which might be why, in today's world many folks do not like to do it. Today, we are use to instant gratification, and meditation moves in inches, but after a time, I found the rewards to be well worth it. Lastly my take on Intent and its co-part Intuition. I cannot define or tell someone what Intent, or Intuition is. They seem to come from a place deeper than the thinking mind. I can only make a comparison that might help. Many think the Will Power and Intent is the same thing. they seem to be related, but for me, Will power comes from the thinking, planning mind. (Like saying, "tomorrow, I am going to workout every day, and eat good food), which many can make happen with will power, but many times, it doesn't last. Intent on the other hand, just arises, and once Intent opens up, things get done. Much like it's cousin, Intuition, where by the thinking mind that is trying to understand a problem, or solve a problem, might not be able to do so, so then we just kind of walk away, have a cup of coffee, and take the thinking mind off the problem, and from no where the solution is right there. In a flash of insight, that arose when we were not even thinking about it. So Intent is to will power, as Intuition is to thought. Interesting subject. good luck sitting. zp

started doing soto zen about 10-12 years ago. Sat in our little forest, 2-3 hours a day, 7 days a week. Now days, I just sit until I don't sit. Cliff notes version: had the spontaneous movements, (I had to look them up, and they are called "kundalini kriya" movements, from what I remember. never had a bad experience with these, and they eventually went away. After about 3 or 4 years, I stopped having nightmares. haven't had one in 7 or 8 years. My dreams became lucid. (I actually divide them into what I call "simi- lucid", where one is engaged in the dream, but if it starts to change in a way that is not good, then I can start over, or just change the story". then what I call "Lucid" dreams, where like most, one can fly, walk through walls, etc, the typical fully lucid dream, and lastly what I termed "wise dreams" which there seems to be some kind of mythic parable or story, where one just knows that something needs to be understood in it. this kind of dream is both lucid, and many times, I am both aware of the sleep REM state, and also aware, at the same time, being in bed. weird shit for sure. Started doing Nei gung, (hope that is the way it is spelled now days), and compression breath, and reverse breathing for about 40 mins a day in my sitting meditation, for the last couple of months. the amount of energy developed is much like doing a gram of coke. I had to cut back on the reverse breathing, as for my yang constitution, it was kind of overboard, Been looking for real information on nei gung breathing, or Taoist breathing, but only find shit on the internet. my acupuncturist gave me your web address. look forward to sharing experiences and tips with you all. cheers. zp