OldDog

I don't think it is really possible to do away with the ego. It is at the center of our consciousness and attempting to extinguish the ego would present an existential threat and likely have all kinds of repercussions. That said, I think the ego can become ... unhealthy ... and as such can benefit from some understanding, modulation or transformation. It is when the ego becomes overly consumed with the sense of self and sees itself as apart and superior to the rest of the world that it becomes an unhealthy motivation directing one's actions. A lot of times this is accompanied by excessive emotional disturbance, a condition often attributed to issues of the heart. I am glad someone mentioned the Guanzi in this discussion. The Neiye, a part of Guanzi, that was cited is describing a practice that can be very helpful in bringing the heart and ego into a better balance. So, it's not about seeing the ego as bad and worthy of extinction but more about recognizing ego and helping it find its appropriate place in our lives.

One more .... I love watching great blues musicians play together. Joe Bob says check it out.

@zerostao It's great listening to the old blues icons. It always amazes me how you see the influence they had on other performers and groups. The clip of JLH reminded me instantly of ... early Rolling Stones, Canned Heat and A stop. Thanks. Think I will start doing a blues review.

Sunday morning jazz ... Imho, just about the best duo performance ever.

I really like Eno's rendering on this section. But all have nuance that helps understanding. Elsewhere ... I recall reference being made to the heart within the heart. As I read this section, that phrase comes to mind. It seems to sharply point to something ... or some quality ... beyond just a reverently swept abode.

Sunday morning jazz .... Now for something completely different

Sunday morning jazz ...

A while back, I looked into A Course in Miracles and associated writings. It did not resonate with me as a valid line if investigation. However, there was one thing I took away. That was the notion that we needed to forgive ourselves for being separated from God. I sort of tucked that thought away, not making judgement one way or another. Later, as I began to consider what it meant to experience the unity of existence, the though came back. There seemed to be a correlation in thinking there. Still working on that. 🤔

This makes sense to me ... a illusory sense of separation of self from every thing else ... lack of sense of unity of existence. Thus, it is the illusion that must be dissolved ... not necessarily the ego itself. I'm not sure the ego can be dissolved. It seems to me that the ego is ... inextricably ... tied to sentience and consciousness. As such, it would seem necessary, if one is to realize the unity of existence ... experience something more than a vegetative state.

Your child / mama starting point is fair enough but how do you see ego changing /developing over time ... with exposure to greater diversity in what is other than "me" ... with recognition that there are other egos active in existence. Is there not potential that an world view can become ... unhealthy ... and unable to interact effectively / appropriately with the outside world?

What you describe is a part of wu wei ... But there is more to it. Consider what happened in the experience you described and how it played out. In your stillness, you became relaxed, reduced your intent and expectation. You opeened up and became more receptive and responsive to your significant other. As the evening played out you were able to achieve and mutually satisfying interaction. Or, so it sounds from your description. So, what's the wu wei part. The evening was going to play out one way or the other. You really did not have to do anything to work your way through the evening. But because of the state of mind and heart you achieved, you were able to let the evening play out naturslly with much less effort. And it appears, your state of mind and heart was recognized and recieved and responded to naturally by your SO. You both had a great experience. Wouldn't it be great if you could do the same thing in other activities and interactions? Keep exploring this ... how you were able to relax, release intent and expectations, and observe what is going on around you and how you react. Sounds like you are on the right track.

The admonitions against excessive knowledge appear in various places. I think what they are referring to is the confusion and chaos caused by the excessive work of the rational mind which is constantly examining, distinguishing and discriminating. Against this background of noise, it is difficult to maintain awareness. Hence the need to quieten the heart-mind on a regular basis to regain awareness. I wonder if this is not the way it was mean to be. It seems the manifest world operates in cycles ... seasons, moon phases, sunrise/sunset ... arising/declining, coming/going ... part of a natural rhythm. What are the human rhythms? Thinking out loud again.

@Bindi and @dawei I apologize for pressing a point of view too far. Clearly, I have overstepped the mark. If I have offended, then I am truly sorry. I value both of your inputs and leadership. I will dial it back some.

This is the way I read the Neiye. The essence is everywhere and when we see it we interpret it in the context where it appears thinking it is something different but it isn't. I like this reading. It says to me that the essence is always within naturally. That our understading ... our awareness ... of it comes and goes but it is always naturally present. When we lose touch with it we become confused. When we re-establish touch with it we become well regulated. It may not be possible to remain permanently in touch but there is nothing preventing us in our practice from periodically re-experiencing the awareness and the rememberance of those experiences can guide us in our actions. Maybe it isn't. There seems to be a strong tendency to want to understand the Neiye from the perspective of the later developed alchemy. But if this is really an early foundational text, such perspective may not necessarily be appropriate or even useful in understanding what the Neiye is trying to say. Just thinking out loud.

I had to go back and re-read this last night. I think the tendency is to fixate on ghosts and spirits as entities. This misses the point of the section. As I read it, it is talking about the injection of the creative ... generative, per Apech ... force into the manifest world. Without it, the manifest world is just full of things ... no dynamics ... dead. This creative essence is called by many names according to where it is found ... between heaven and earth ... in the chests/hearts of beings. It is all pervasive, universal and, yes, unifying.

Sunday morning jazz ...

Can't say for certain but my guess would be that many on this forum come from the same place. I myself don't have a Facebook account, or Instagram or Twit. But I do have interest in life and life processes and here on the Bums site I find s place where I can discuss/share these things without being harassed by trolls that can not manage to express a coherent line of thought without obscenity. Come join the conversations. Welcome.

Yeah, this is really problematic for me since intend to believe that these things are inherent ... albeit latent in most individuals ... so that the development process is an internal one. So, setting the right conditions ... sweeping the leaves ... sounds right. But ideas like the Dao arriving seems external. What also seems right is the fleeting nature of the awareness ... It comes and departs. So, I will also be wanting to see how this develops.

For Memorial Day ...

When it comes to interpreting these text, I am out of my element because I do not read or speak Chinese. Still, two things occur to me as I read the above. Here, I would understand the "common people" to mean ... any person from the set of "common people" as a representative of that group. That is, attainment is potentially available to all. Roth's note: ... vital essence is secured through developing the "inner power" that comes from the mental concentration attained through breathing meditation. I take "inner power" to mean de, which I have always understood be more than just concentration. That is, encompassing other qualities as well such as intent, sincerity, etc. ... a broader definition rather than focused on mental concentration. This is how these readings make sense to me. Thoughts?

Yes, that is a particularly interesting aspect of Roth's work ... and one to be noted. He lays a really strong foundation for his methodology, describing the technic involved and how they are applied. This lends considerable credibility to his analysis because his results and conclusions cannot be viewed as arbitrary. In a sense he throws down a gauntlet for academic rigor. It's really quite impressive. On the other hand, because of the antiquity the texts he is working with, it is really difficult to validate his conclusions. It is only through the strength of his methodology that his conclusions stand. So, there is still a little room for possible disagreement. It would be interesting to see if anyone else can mount as rigorous an argument for any other point of view. Regardless, for the rest of us he provides much to consider.

If your blockages are due to physical trauma, you might try acupuncture. I had a pretty good right shoulder injury years (12+ yrs) ago due to a fall that I thought had healed up pretty good but with some residual discomfort and loss of range of motion. One day while getting an acupuncture treatment for some thing unrelated, my acupucturist notice a slight wince as i sat up on the table. He asked, "What wrong?" (He spoke only some English.) I told him shoulder was stiff. He told me to sit still and proceeded to needle the shoulder and surrounding area. Then in chiropractic fashion elevated my arm laterally parallel to the ground with some discomfort. After doing this several times he raised my arm laterally up past parallel to almost straight up. I won't tell you it was not painful but it was tolerable. He repeated process two more times, adjusting the needles. I asked what had happened and his only response was, "Qi blocked. Feel better now." Since then I have had full range of motion with no discomfort. Guess my point being that issues can persist long after you think they have healed. Qigong might not be able to address all blockages quickly. I have since paid attention during ZZ to both shoulders making sure the joints are open for optimal qi flow. Hope you get to improving.