OldDog

Well, now ... think about who it was that settled and inhabited the region of the US where Bluegrass was born. More than just a casual connection.

Funny you should phrase it that way. I recently watched a video having to do with dark matter - how, given the present state of understanding, science is unable to account for what it sees without the notion of dark matter - how the universe must be predominantly dark matter. But dark matter is spoken of in a positive active sense which does not at all seem to match with the notion of yin as we tend to talk about it. In another sense, yin is what allows room for yang to operate - a place for yang to express itself, to manifest in some manner. So, it makes sense that there should be ample space for the creative to work. TTC 11 comes to mind ... Therefore by the existence of things we profit. And by the non-existence of things we are served.

I have often wondered about the round coins with square holes. Why not no holes at all or square coins with round holes, unless .... Could it be that symbolically square refers to earth and round heaven so that the image is that of heaven over earth?

I have read this thread couple of times and I am not understsnding the premise that suggests a tendency toward a "yin steady state". Doesn't that assume that any given hexagram will continue to transform until it reaches a "pure yin" state. How does that even happen? Each casting establishes a new hexagram independent of the previous casting right? So, there is no migration or accumulated affect that, given imbalance in probability, would tend toward a pure yin state. Seems like the imbalance in likelihood of a changing line becoming yin over yang is in effect only for the one casting. Once the lines change they change to a stabile line and no further movment is anticipated. What am I missing here.?

This is my first venture into the off grid world. I chose this tread with some trepidation but have been pleasantly surprised by the lack of vitriolic exchange. So, kudos to all for keeping it civil. I see the left/right political polarity as the most crucial issue of our time and have struggled greatly to try and understand it and how we might possibly break out of this pattern. Since this thread has to do with defining the left/right phenomenon, I wonder if any of you have explored the work of social psychologists, specifically the work of Jonathan Haidt. Doesn't this kind of discussion contribute significantly tounderstanding left vs right? Thoughts?

Hmmm, tough question. It's difficult having a discussion that involves politics. Danger is that those discussions tend to quickly devolve to vitriolic exchange. Still, in general terms, I think so. The likelihood of change has to do with a given tendency having reached an extreme in its expression. Having reached an extreme the only direction for further change is reversion, the emergence and development of its opposite; the pendulum effect. The notion of change and reversion is fundamental to the I Ching. At a detailed level, though, it is very difficult to see. There are so many different dynamics at work that it is almost impossible see how they might be playing out in terms of the fundamental nature of change described by the I Ching. But that does not mean that the fundamental rules don't apply. Just that the average mind cannot see it.

The confusing statement has to do with Daoist meditation and alchemy. Within the center of the heart-mind, there is another heart-mind. In this heart of the heart–mind, there is a resonance (intent) which precedes words. It refers, as I understand it, to a kind of spiritual intelligence that develops within but apart from understanding gained through words or experienced through emotions. I am still pondering this idea but it has a certain appeal. This is largely the subject matter of The Thread of Dao, by Dan G Ried, where he goes into great detail comparing and contrasting what he calls proto-daoist texts.

I started out this year intent on learning more about the I Ching. My interest was not in divination but rather the I Ching as a book of wisdom. Sadly, it has been difficult to find material that looks at the I Ching as anything other than an oracle. Perhaps I have been looking in the wrong way. That said, I think that there is a lot to be learned from the I Ching. Underlying all of Taoism is the notion of change and duality in the manifest world. And no better place to start than by looking in the Book of Change. While the TTC and Chuangtse does not make direct reference to the I Ching, it is hard to escape the similarity in symbolism and language between them. My frustration has been that by just reading these three writings, I was not expanding my understanding past a certain point. I guess I was just not bright enough to connect the pieces on my own. So, I began to seek other texts (classic and modern) that represented other traditions within Taoism or explored the connections. That has proved to be worthwhile effort. As far as comparison if the I Ching to the Scientific Method goes I have come to see them as just different approaches. Seems to me the Scientific approach, at least from a mathematical point of view, is to take a phenomenon and try to find a mathematical construct to fit it. Whereas, the I Ching teaches to understand the fundamental principles that underlie all phenomena and observe thier transformations. From another point of view, the hexagrams themselves and rules governing transformation may be likened to mathematical formulae. So that, if one were clever enough, one could map phenomena onto the hexagram system and use the rules of transformation to understand how change in phenomena works. I'll leave it to others to decide which is superior. I just think there is more there than meets the eye.

Sometimes you just need to clear the cobwebs ...

I am with you on this point. I am greatly influenced by Daoism personally, through Laozi, Chuangzi and others. And as a personal philosophy I can appreciate the the criticism of the legalist and confucian views. But I am greatly concerned about our social situation, as well. I am having a hard time seeing how Daoism can play a role in shaping society in a beneficial manner. I am not even sure that a critical mass of Daoist thinking can be achieved. I cruise other forums and see that typically Daoist thought is interpreted nihilistically or as a self-justifying form of anarchy. Wonder if this has always been so. Small wonder Daoists often find the way of the hermit.

Joseph Campbell was a truly great teacher. He was able to demonstrate how certain archtypical ideas cross the boundaries of our various mythologies. His writings should be considered foundational reading for all seekers.

Read the article today and found it very interesting. One idea was expressed in such a way that it really resonated. Chuang Tzu holds that intellectual knowledge of the Way impedes its performance, much as thinking about the fine points of one's golf swing impedes the swinging or thinking about meditating impedes meditation. Perhaps this is why ... The Tao that can be told of Is not the Absolute Tao; ... and underscores the experiential nature of Tao. Thanks for sharing. The article will certainly help with my understanding as I continue reading Chuangtse..

Of the five vices, the vice of the mind is the worst. What is the vice of the mind? The vice of the mind is self-satisfaction. - Chuangtse

I am just getting into a more thorough reading of Chuangtse. So I guess my viewpoint is limited. That said, as one begs the question, its worth asking how is it to be decided what is Chuangtse-ian and what is not. The Chuangtse we have has already filtered down the millennia through the minds of many who are eminently more qualified the translate, interpret and judge than many of us today. Even if we were to accept that a passage was sufficiently less Chuangtse-ian than the rest does that mean it is not worthy to be considered as a valid part of the broader taoist view. What would be the point of separating it out ... either figuratively or literally. I think we have to accept it for what it is ... and is not. Ultimately, each of us has to decide whether there is any meaning in it. Still, in the spirit of open discussion, I would like to hear which passages are suspect and why.

Look at the water coming out of a spring, it flows naturally of itself. The perfect man does not have to cultivate his character and yet he never departs from the laws of nature. It is like the sky which is high by nature, like the earth which is solid by nature and like, the sun and the moon which are bright by themselves. What do they do to cultivate themselves? - Chuangtse

Although I have not listened to this song in years, it has been echoing in my head the last few days.

A riddle wraped in a mystery inside an enigma ... or perhaps more properly fable wrapped inside a parable. Seems that Kungsun, like the frog, became complacent in their world ... confounded when exposed to notions outside of their realm. Kungsun, however, asks what his strategy should be. Master Chuang advises return to your realm lest you risk not being able to return at all. Favorable or unfavorable depend in the perception.

Though I am not particularly interested in alchemy, I recently read a book that goes a long way toward connecting alchemy to the more general study of daoism. The Seal of the Unity of the Three, by Fabrizio Pregadio is a most comprehensive explanation of alchemy language. It goes a long way toward demystifying the cryptic language of alchemical text and sets alchemy into the context of broader Daoism. I have not read Pregadio's other works and so cannot speak to them. But, short of an actual hands on master, it is hard to imagine a better introduction to daoist alchemy.

Yes, Lin Yutang is where I go first for Laotse and Chuangtse.

This passage seems to be key, the Eastern Sea remaining undisturbed by changing conditions resting in the unity of Dao. I very much enjoyed Mair's translation. I have been looking for another translation of Chuangtse but looking for more than just the inner chapters. If you don't mind a sidebar: How much of the outer material is in Mair's translation and how do you compare Mair to Watson?

No disrespect intended ... but the first thing that came to mind on looping Rain in the Woods was an old (1950s) scifi story by Ray Bradbury, the Long Rain, where the sanity of a group of astronauts is challenged by the persistent unrelenting rain on Venus. Made me smile ... as I have fond memories of Bradbury's stories. In keeping with the rain theme, I'll offer this ...

The spirit of the universe is subtle and informs all life. Things live and die and change their forms, without knowing the root from which they come. - Chuangtse

Yeah, seems like many national anthems are just that ... over expression of nationalism ... and we all know where that can lead.

I think quietly embedded in this statement is the notion of disconnecting the the source from the response. Impatience is most noticeable when the response is the rapid and often volitile emotional discharge it results in. As stated, by taking a moment to "... notice ... and just let it be ..." it allows time for the emotional discharge to gradually dissipate, to recognize what just happened, understand the source and then act in a more appropriate way.