On 7/19/2018 at 10:22 PM, Attis said:

 

Thank you for posting the video and interview. I'll check them out.

 

 

 

 

I did find some good stuff, thanks for pointing that out. I also found some alternative systems in those same threads so more things to research!

 

Attis

I took classes from Spring Forest Qigong master Chunyi Lin starting in 1999 and did intensive meditation while taking his classes in 2000. He said I had an enlightenment experience then. I kept researching and have discovered the basic principles of the training - these principles are applicable to any of the various "schools" or teachings. There are apparently thousands of qigong schools in China - although the regime only supports a handful now and severely attacks a handful as well.

 

So as Chunyi says - "use your consciousness to go into the Emptiness and keep it simple."

Now what that actually means could make you wonder. But I interpret consciousness as shen or spirit and the Emptiness as the Yuan Qi that is also information from the future - as healing energy, the Universe as alive, as a female origin.

 

So anyway also I have not kept up with his "new" techniques he now teaches - that are more closer to Buddhism I think.

 

But I can assure you that his skill level is very rare - he did the 49 day cave meditation at Mt. Qingcheng and he also trained at Shaolin - doing the horse stance for 2 hours nonstop (thighs totally vertical) - every day for 3 months straight.

 

So have fun "shopping" for techniques or various schools - but I would say that it's much harder for a teacher to find a student capable of handling the real training, then it is for a student to find a real teacher. haha.

8 minutes ago, Aetherous said:

 

At least in the Nan Jing, it's the "moving qi", not a structure.

Very interesting about the Wim Hof methods stimulating epinephrine.

 

 

This is odd terminology...where does calling it this come from, and what is this?

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Positive generative force (yang ching ): The real generative force See Yang ching.

https://archive.org/stream/TaoistYogaAlchemyAndImmortalityLuKuanYCharlesLuk/Taoist Yoga Alchemy and Immortality Lu K’uan Yü (Charles Luk)_djvu.txt

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Tang ching: Real positive generative force. See Positive genera¬ tive force.

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straighten your neck and swallow it. It will then enter the channel of function (jen mo) to reach the cavity of vitality (below the navel) where it will change into negative and positive generative force. When the generative force is full so will be the breath and when breath is full spirit is strong and your body will be robust.

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By laying the foundation of positive spirit is meant stopping the positive generative force from draining away, and thus producing the golden elixir.

So the yang jing - it is hidden but can be deconverted back into generative fluid and drained away.

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If spirit wavers causing nocturnal emission of the ‘most precious thing’ the absence of this light confirms the loss of real positive generative force.

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The Nan Hua Ching says: ‘The real positive generative force is mysterious.’

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The immortal seed is the crystallisation of positive generative force. When the latter is fully developed the practiser should turn back his eyes to concentrate on and look into the lower tan t’ien centre (under the navel) so that the element of fire in the eyes which are above scorches that of water in the belly which is below, to produce positive vitality whose light manifests in front of him.

 

17 hours ago, Aetherous said:

The idea of the mingmen being associated primarily with the kidneys was from a commentator on the Nan Jing's 8th difficult issue, who said, "to the left is the kidney, to the right is the gate of life" and people thought it meant the right kidney is the mingmen...but that was just additional commentary, and extrapolation on that. The actual text of the Nan Jing says it's between the kidneys. This is why in medicine they chose DU-4 in the center as the point to call "mingmen" and not something off to the side, or even associated with the kidneys.
 

 

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But back to mingmen, the Life Gate; this is (likely) this structure between the kidneys, the crus of the diaphragm (and ligament of Treitz) - the gateway in the diaphragm and the gateway in the energy fields.

http://perceivebelieve.tumblr.com/post/159904989496/the-idiots-guide-to-taoist-alchemy-qigong

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Arising from the crus is a very interesting structure, the ligament of Treitz. This starts as a slip of striated (voluntary) muscle from the diaphragm, becomes ligamentus, and then continues as smooth (involunatary) muscle to join (and suspend) the small intestine at the juncture of the duodenum and the jejunum (the second section of the small intestine). This suspensory ligament is the structure we feel relax when our “stomach” falls with fear, for instance.

 

Dr.

Norman Bethune Allan:

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one old old source says that it is also the “greasy membrane between the kidneys.” And what could that be? Surely it’s the crus of the diaphragm!…Where the oesophagus passes through the diaphragm (the diaphragmatic hiatus), the diaphragm loops a bit of muscle round the left that then crosses over, below, to the right (to the right of the abdominal aorta)… The pieces of the diaphragm either side of the oesophagus, and then below, either side of the aorta, are called the crus of the diaphragm - the cross of the diaphragm.

 

scientifically explained by the

Wim Hof Method

, pdf link:

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The researchers also concluded that this experiment confirmed that a clear voluntary activation of the autonomic nervous system triggers an increase in the production of the stress hormone adrenaline. In turn, this resulted in a suppression of the activation of the immune system.

Reverse breathing means below the bellow button the stomach goes in on the in breath and above the belly button on the in breath the stomach goes out and the diaphragm is flexed down. This is also called “pressure breathing.” The quick fire breathing (fast deep reverse breathing) doubles the adrenaline levels by physically stimulating the adrenal medullae or “yang jing” on top of the kidneys.

Again the Wim Hof tummo method was tested:

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Epinephrine [adrenaline] levels in trained [for 4 days] individuals were even higher than those reported in a recent study in which acute stress elicited by a bungee jump was found to suppress cytokine production by leukocytes ex vivo stimulated with LPS (13). As norepinephrine, dopamine, and cortisol levels were not increased in the training group, it appears that the techniques predominantly result in stimulation of the sympathetic input to the adrenal medulla, because this is the most abundant source of epinephrine [adrenaline] in the body and epinephrine-producing chromaffin cells in the adrenal medulla

 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 12:44 PM, joeblast said:

you still dont know how to actually do it, do you

even though I told you already maybe 7, 8 years ago

 

and the folks that made this image missed a really basic thing too.

Phoenix3 asked the question. So if you secretly know the answer and don't want to share - that's what forums are for!

5 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

This is all very interesting, but trigrams is not what i’m after. Hexagrams are what i’m looking for.

A Portion of the Translation of the Cantong Qi; the Source of the Taoist Way of the Golden Elixir TreasuryEye (Drukama) The principles of Neidan (Inner ... the father and the mother of all hexagrams. ... the River Chariot of the northern direction.

 

So that's the "small universe" meditation aka microcosmic orbit.

 

 

ok it says each of the six five-day periods of the month is associated with one of the eight trigrams - and then each trigram is associated with one of the ten celestial stems - and this is one of the models for the practice of the "fire times" in internal alchemy. p. 96

o.k. on page 102 it says the four cardinal points are the trigrams heaven, earth for south and north with South as the huiyin perineum cavity - and north as palace of the muddy pellet. Then East is Kan and West is Li with East as Mingment and West or Li as the heart Crimson Palace.

 

 

The cycles change based on the level of practice and the time of day, etc.

It's similar but there is some deeper correlations in the Wang Mu book. I will have to study it. You have 8 and 12 and 60 and 5

oops - no it does not have Zhen or Xun... so nope...

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As we inhale, yang begins to grow rising from kidneys and the perineum, and moving up the Du vessel until yang peaks just before reaching the top of the head. Then yin returns and begins to grow at Bai Hui. Yin gathers until all the lines return to yin again at the perineum.

 

So based on that analysis is it the back of the skull (heaven) plus the perineum = top of the skull

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the top of the heaven, represented by the hexagram Gou formed by Heaven and Wind, one guards the Cavity of the Moon's Lair, the ancestral opening.

that's the same hexagram that the link I gave has also for the top of the head.

https://www.internalartsinternational.com/free/daoist-meditation-lesson-eight-theory-golden-fluid-the-micro-cosmic-orbit/

yeah so it's Table 6: Sovereign Hexagrams - p. 130 - twolve and relation to the "double hours" of the small universe...

3 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I haven’t got the book but I’ve read the preview. I couldn’t find anything in there except linking 60 hexagrams with the days of the month rather than anatomy. Perhaps it’s in the full version? I don’t know.

OK I opened the book and the first thing I read was this:

 

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When Qian (Heaven) meets Xun (Wind) contemplate the Moon's Lair, when the Earth Kun) comes across the Thunder(Zhen), observe the Heaven's Root....According to representation of the human body by means of the trigrams, the top of the head is Qian (Heaven) and the belly is Kun (Earth). When the circulation of the internal Breath (neiqi) reaches the top of the heaven, represented by the hexagram Gou formed by Heaven and Wind, one guards the Cavity of the Moon's Lair, the ancestral opening. When it reaches the hexagram Fu, formed by Earth and Thunder, one guards the Heaven's Root, The Cavity of the Caudal Funnel.

p. 57-8.

I think this is the same as the other image I gave...

 

 

So to address the "hidden order of quantum physics" issue that Michael Sternbach raised - this is a known "loop hole" in quantum physics.

 

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A Bell test is a randomized trial that compares experimental observations against the philosophical worldview of local realism¹, in which the properties of the physical world are independent of our observation of them and no signal travels faster than light. A Bell test requires spatially distributed entanglement, fast and high-efficiency detection and unpredictable measurement settings^2,3.

 

O.K. so This is called Bell's Inequality Test - and it has been "disproven" - which means that indeed the foundation of reality is non-local - just as Daoism maintains - there ARE superluminal correlations - faster than light.

 

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physical setting choices

 

This was the big loophole - whether the "Measurement settings" truly are RANDOM or not.

 

So then I accessed the pdf through https://sci-hub.tw/

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-018-0085-3

just enter the link to get a pdf download.

And so what this experiment verifies - just as John Bell argued - is that instead of using "random number generators" - it is better to use Human Free Will to create the 0/1 number string.

Randomness is NOT required for the measurement settings but instead what is required is:

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independence of choices from the hidden variables.

So this is very similar to the I Ching experiment because it involves a person making choices.

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Simultaneous experiments on five continents challenge Einstein's principle of local realism. Participants contributed to the experiment generating more than 90 million bits, unpredictably choosing among measurements to escape a paradox known as the 'freedom-of-choice loophole'.

So the freedom of choice loophole is precisely this idea of quantum nonlocality as a deterministic factor.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/05/180509135409.htm

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the possibility that the particles themselves influence the choice of measurement. Such influence, if it existed, would invalidate the test;

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But local realism is a question we can't fully answer with a machine. It seems we ourselves must be part of the experiment, to keep the Universe honest."

And so this experiment RULES OUT the use of random number generators to test the foundation of reality.

And what is this foundation of reality? Well again the mainstream view is that there are correlations that are superluminal - but inherently unknowable until they are measured. This is called Lucian Hardy's Paradox.

But other experiments have shown these correlations can be views in "real time" - as "weak measurements" based on the phase probability - or the quantum potential as Bohm called it - these are the noncommtuative "changeables" that once measured become "beables."

And so based on that evidence - Nobel Physicist Gerard t' Hooft argued the Universe is STILL deterministic (not random) at the microscale.

So the point being that "unknowable" is NOT the same as random - and "unknowable" possibly could still be deterministic.

How Does God Play Dice? (Pre-)Determinism at the Planck Scale

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In deterministic theories, one can start from a set of ontological states to formulate the dynamical laws, but these may not be directly observable. Observable are only equivalence classes of states, and these will span a basis of "beables", to be promoted to an orthonormal basis of Hilbert Space. After transforming this basis to a more conventional basis, a theory may result that is fundamentally quantum mechanical. It is conjectured that the quantum laws of the real world may be understood from exactly such a procedure.

So it depends on how the experiment is defined but this gets into Entropy again since randomness is inherently tied to entropy - and when we get into entropy then we have to consider the "externalities" of science itself. We assume science to be objective but the "entropy" of science has been a vast ecological and social injustice crisis on Earth.

 

So again Daoism doesn't deal with any of this - randomness is not part of Daoism, since entropy as part of randomness assumes the foundation of reality is a geometric, logarithmic continuum. This is clearly NOT Daoism. haha.

1 hour ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

I haven’t got the book but I’ve read the preview. I couldn’t find anything in there except linking 60 hexagrams with the days of the month rather than anatomy. Perhaps it’s in the full version? I don’t know.

 

I'll dig out the book and check it out....

9 minutes ago, zerostao said:

ISomehow you are able to pick and choose which mathmagician is correct over other mathmagicians that hold an opposing view, that is interesting too.

I have corresponded with math professors - and a math professor did say my music-math research was very impressive and asked me to submit it for publication. But humans have been around for a long time without "math" - some human cultures do not count about the concept of "several." haha. And so is "randomness" as concept in Daoism? No - not in the Western definition of randomness.

But Western science is based on quantum physics now - and it is definitely up to debate whether randomness is even real or not.

So quantum physics is noncommutative - and this does change how "randomness" is defined.

Because of the "measurement problem" in quantum physics - we can no longer ignore the process of doing the math, as being part of the experiment.

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This is only possible because of the highly non-commutative nature of these matrices; as we shall see, it is not possible for non-trivial commuting independent random variables to be freely independent.

https://terrytao.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/245a-notes-5-free-probability/

So I was replying to "OldDog" talking about the Uncertainty Principle - and also Michael Sternbach talking about the "Hidden order" of quantum physics.

So I am not just "spamming" this thread - I am replying to their very legitimate concerns about what randomness "means."

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a mind influences local randomness from outside spacetime to produce nonlocal order.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Antoine_Suarez

Yes I can critique math from a variety of perspectives because my foundation of research is from music theory. All human cultures use the Octave, Perfect Fifth, Perfect Fourth as 1:2:3:4 - and as Chuang Tzu states -

 

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If then all things are One, what room is there for speech? On the other hand, since I can say the word 'one' how can speech not exist? If it does exist, we have One and speech -- two; and two and one -- three(14) from which point onwards even the best mathematicians will fail to reach (the ultimate); how much more then should ordinary people fail?...So since from nonexistence there comes existence and next there are three...depend on This and let that be the end of it." "

         - Chuang Tzu, 300 BCE

And so we see those numbers 1, 2, 3 (infinity) and we think it is simple counting! No - it is actually noncommutative phase - as quantum physics has proven already.

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Abstract: A numerical thought experiment with two momentum correlated particles is presented, in which particle A passes through a series of zig-zagging slits and particle B moves unobstructedly.
It is shown that, if particle A's meandering path is monitored by successive non-detections, particle B will loosely adhere to a similar trajectory without violating momentum conservation. The discussion relates this apparent telekinetic influence, which is a standard quantum mechanical result, to supposedly real telekinesis and to Stapp's hypothesis on intention in quantum physics.

These are not "woo woo" or "exotic" physicists. They are standard quantum physicists! haha. This dude, Summhammer, published with a famous Bell Theorem experimenter who also published with the quantum mechanics professor I had, my first year of college.

 

 

16 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

No doubt voidisyinyang will go on spamming this topic (and other topics) from here on in stead of starting a topic of his own to discuss his exotic theories, but let's ignore him as best as we can.

 

O.K. let's assume your "self-organizing random" exotic theory is true.

https://www.blueswami.com/home/blog/randomreality

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IF YOU could lift a corner of the veil that shrouds reality, what would you see beneath? Nothing but randomness, say two Australian physicists. According to Reginald Cahill and Christopher Klinger of Flinders University in Adelaide, space and time and all the objects around us are no more than the froth on a deep sea of randomness.

Then, based on your assumption, "life" is still explained as quantum nonlocality. Oops. haha.

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Cahill and Klinger believe that these defects are the stuff we are made of, as described by the wave functions of quantum theory, because they have a special property shared by quantum entities: nonlocality. In quantum theory, the properties of two particles can be correlated, or "entangled", even when they are so far apart that no signal can pass between them. "This ghostly long-range connectivity is apparently outside of space," says Cahill. But in Cahill and Klinger's model of reality, there are some connections that act like wormholes to connect far-flung topological defects.

Then we need to address entropy and the ecological crisis - from science wrongly assuming life is random. Oh well.

Math is funny that way.

 

On 6/30/2018 at 11:39 AM, OldDog said:

 

I would not call it spamming. I would call it free and open discussion. It's not uncommon for posts to diverge from the initial topic. 

 

Still, it's your thread. If you want so constrained, I will bow out.

 

Adios!

 

Yes the OP just doesn't understand quantum physics in regards to nonlocality. Just because something appears to be random, does not mean it is actually random! https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2195024_Quantum_Cooperation_of_Two_Insects

 

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the random moves of both individuals will be quite coordinated.

This is REAL science - quantum nonlocality. haha.

So the OP wants to test against randomness as the foundation of reality - but just because some appears to be random mathematically does not MEAN it is random in reality.

 

 

6 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

They are trigrams, from wikipedia, and they don’t make sense. After all, is kun (the receptive) really the belly? Regardless, I would have thought some daoist would have linked hexagrams with anatomy some time ago.

yes read the book "Internal Foundations of Alchemy" by Wang Mu - there are more details on the hexagrams and anatomy in there. The book is not in front of me right now - so I can't quote from it....

 

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_56_wm.html

 

Here you go.

 

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According to the alchemical texts, the main requirement at the stage of “refining Essence and transmuting it into Breath” is that the Yang Essence be refined and transmuted. The hexagram Fu ䷗, formed by Earth ☷ and Thunder ☳, is called “the birth of initial Yang” (yiyang sheng). This Yang should be collected and refined by going through the six Yang stages until it reaches the pure Qian ䷀.

 

5 minutes ago, Phoenix3 said:

After all, the vagus nerve doesn’t enter the tongue or palate area.

Vagal afferent activation induces salivation and swallowing-like events ...

Oct 5, 2016 - Vagal afferent activation induces salivation and swallowing-like events in ... salivation and increased the activity of the vagal afferent nerve.

Activation of Phosphatidylcholine Cycle Enzymes in Human Epithelial ...

Mar 1, 2010 - Altered phosphatidylcholine (PC) metabolism in epithelial ovarian cancer (EOC) could provide choline-based imaging approaches as powerful ...

 

It is through the epithelial cells - activated by the vagus nerve.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25433161

 

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Phosphatidylethanolamine N-methyltransferase (PEMT), a liver enriched enzyme, is responsible for approximately one third of hepatic phosphatidylcholine [lecithin] biosynthesis. When fed a high-fat diet (HFD), Pemt(-/-) mice are protected from HF-induced obesity; however, they develop steatohepatitis. The vagus nerve relays signals between liver and brain that regulate peripheral adiposity and pancreas function. Here we explore a possible role of the hepatic branch of the vagus nerve in the development of diet induced obesity and steatohepatitis in Pemt(-/-) mice.

 

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Recent animal investigations, however, have shown that at least 50% and perhaps up to 80% or more of the CSF leaves the cranial cavity through the cribriform plate, via the perineuronal spaces surrounding the olfactory nerves, to drain into the nasal and cervical lymphatics (Fig 2) [64-70]. This rostral outflow of CSF contains considerable amounts of interstitial fluid, especially from midbrain areas [71,72], and plays an important role in CNS immune system interactions [68,73].

https://openi.nlm.nih.gov/detailedresult.php?img=PMC2821375_1743-8454-7-1-2&req=4

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The cranial CSF displays a rapid caudally-directed ventricular flow followed by a slower rostrally-directed subarachnoid flow (mainly towards the cribriform plate and from there into the nasal lymphatics).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2821375/

The regulation of brain states by neuroactive substances distributed via the cerebrospinal fluid; a review

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When the hamsters were maintained in a short photoperiod (LD 8:16), the CSF-contacting area of the pineal recess was significantly larger in those hamsters killed 2 hours before lights off compared to those killed 2 hours before lights on (P less than 0.01). There were no significant differences in the CSF-contacting area when comparing two groups of hamsters maintained in a long photoperiod (LD 14:10, killed 2 hours before lights on and lights off, respectively). There was statistically significant interaction (P less than 0.05) between the lighting cycle and the time of day of death on the appearance of CSF-contacting pinealocytes. The hamsters maintained in LD 8:16 had significantly reduced testicular weights when compared to those maintained in LD 14:10. The plasticity of the central zone and the associated CSF-contacting pinealocytes of the pineal recess of the hamster are evidence that this region demonstrates morphological changes that are dependent upon the physiological state of the animal.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2600761