Aetherous

I think discernment is just seeing and understanding things how they are, but judgment is discernment with also placing a subtle penalty on it (or a not so subtle penalty). That's really the dividing line between something very beneficial for us, and something very harmful to us...and it's a very challenging line to not cross. Another example is that we can discern how drinking too much alcohol is bad for people, and that Jimbob drinks too much...but if we don't offer a helping hand to Jimbob because we think he's throwing his life away and isn't worth the effort (or whatever other subtle penalty), then we've just crossed the line into judgmental land.

I'm not sure why you're responding this way to that post.

For one, when we judge others, we are automatically placing ourselves artificially up on a pedestal, and others artificially down beneath us. This goes against the Mahayana teaching of equality of self and other. Maybe I'll say more later.

No, you haven't been doing that at all.

This is all just stuff to think about, so that we can improve ourselves. It's not to feel judged about being told that we judged others . What ilumairen just said to you is most correct...thinking more about this is a way to learn about ourselves (when we view others negatively, it's helpful spiritually to realize that the negativity is most often a flaw having to do with our own lens of perception, more so than the actual person. It usually has to do with issues we have, and figuring those things out can help us in so many ways). Before posting this, I just saw your response claiming that me pointing this out to you is exemplary of the problem in the Talk Trump thread. You felt attacked here... Instead of that, I encourage you to consider constructive criticism, especially when it comes to the spiritual path, and realize that at least here it was said in order to help you see things from a different spiritual perspective. After all, that's exactly what you and I were talking about...whether certain moments or subjects are spiritual or not. Please don't feel slighted. I think you could tell from our other exchanges (for instance in DDJ threads) that I've got nothing against you. Really, please try to consider this interaction in the way I'm describing here...try to grok what I'm saying, and what ilumairen said, rather than thinking it's something negative about you. ... Definitely. Things are cultivated in every moment - for better or worse. As cultivators, we aim for the better. Being normal people, life happens to us and better and worse things happen...being cultivators, we happen to life, and we are either better or worse for it. It's like: the earth is always capable of growing things. We could throw some poisonous seeds in the ground and water them...but do we want a garden of poisonous plants? Or do we want a variety of veggies that are safe and enjoyable to eat? Who will we make ourselves into? Who wants to cultivate being judgmental? I'm sure people here could have a debate about whether the judgmental mindset is healthy and spiritual or not...but regardless of that fact, it's not something beneficial to us to become. The judgmental mindset involves looking down on others, which for instance goes against the Mahayana principle of equality of self and other. It's also a mindset that prevents one from realizing one's own hypocrisy, or other issues which require work for our personal spiritual growth...the judging mind doesn't recognize that others are mirrors for our issues; it just sees others as having issues. So, judging prevents learning about oneself, and later bettering oneself as a side effect. I think everyone uses the word "cultivation" differently. I was taught my version of understanding it, and found agreement with the teaching. From what I understand, cultivation is what we choose in every moment. Some people use it to talk about things like practicing zhan zhuang, or any other methods...they are "cultivating qi" or "cultivating for health", etc. Like all language, words are often used in the vernacular, and aren't always exacting in their definition. (In fact, I don't even think cultivation the way I undrestand it is in the dictionary.) I use it in a more universal sense, of literally anything we're increasing in our lives. And when intentionally doing it, it's about increasing things we want...because who would choose to increase things they dislike in their lives? Wu wei is interesting. In a sense, it almost seems like the opposite approach to being a cultivator. People view wu wei as similar to going with the flow, whereas cultivation in the sense I use it is going one's own chosen direction, sometimes against the flow. I think both ideas have their place, and are quite worthwhile.

Judging others isn't how to cultivate.

Spiritual cultivation doesn't start and stop in different moments. I heard a spiritual master once talk about a person who was big time into meditation. This person was doing their thing on their zafu, attaining states of bliss...and suddenly they were disturbed by their little kid who started making a bunch of noise. They got up and angrily beat their own little child... That person has lost the way entirely, and it doesn't matter what happened on the cushion, because what happened in the next moment was the opposite of spiritual cultivation. We practice in order to manifest the spiritual in every moment...to respond spiritually to the thing that challenges us. There's this idea from Christians, where someone might go commit every sin on Saturday night, and then get into the religious mindset come Sunday morning. Put on their nice clothes, smile big, and shake hands of people around them, looking like the perfect Christian. But in reality, it doesn't make up for what they did. They are the opposite of religious due to what happened on Saturday, and they just use their identity of being Christian as a crutch or a facade. Come next Saturday, what will it matter what happened on Sunday? They'll be back to doing all of the naughty things. So, spiritual cultivation is by necessity in every single moment. For people who aren't perfect, like all of us, that means every moment is an opportunity to cultivate (we still might make tons of mistakes and not be so cultivated). Spiritual teachings inform us of how to cultivate in every moment (for instance, Buddhist mind training). We need to pay special attention to those moments which we think aren't related to spirituality...like the bliss addict who should've been aware that anger and violence toward his own kid were the opposite of anything spiritual. This also means that everything happening in every moment, no matter what that thing is, is related to our spiritual cultivation. How do we respond? That determines who we are and who we become, spiritually. Also, is it good spiritual cultivation to be entirely unworldly? Some say yes, retreat to the mountains and avoid all people. Others say that cultivation is part of life in the world, in society. As members of society, we have some responsibility for that society...so part of a genuine cultivator's path is engagement with real world issues. In these senses, every section and every topic here, and outside of the forum, are all related to spirituality. If we're cultivators, everything in every moment is. The fact that we have people interested in spirituality here increases that fact, since in the midst of political discussion we sometimes point out to each other how we can have greater honesty, greater compassion, etc. Looking at things from this perspective, can you see how saying something "has no connection to spirituality" isn't true for the genuine aspirant?

It's up to them as individuals to not be obsessed. We're all adults, and it's unhealthy for us when others make our life choices for us. That's being "coddled", and leads to no growth happening in terms of breaking free from obsession (or whatever else our issue is). People on the path of cultivation take the opposite route of needing to be coddled: where they consciously decide who and how they will be, regardless of circumstances. They develop at least a little bit of willpower, taking care to not become obsessed (or develop other issues). No, that's fine. The problem is people saying such threads shouldn't even be there in Hundun, but should simply be deleted, and all political discussion basically outlawed here. At least I think that's what Trunk and Luke have been trying to say here... Similar to the obsession point, if people have ill will toward each other, they need to start cultivating. How to do that = one idea is that they could actively work on having good will toward others, for instance with Buddhist loving-kindness and compassion work.

There are two camps. 1) A number of us who want to have these discussions amongst each other. We think they're enriching and enlightening, even if we disagree strongly. 2) A number who don't want any of those discussions here at all, regardless of what others want, for the sake of preserving the forum as a more spiritually oriented place. I'd say both camps are comprised of similar numbers of forum members. Both camps can be happy if all political discussion was in a hidden subforum that you had to request permission to see and use (like the men's and women's subforums). As it stands, if political threads end up in the pit, members can still see those threads and thereby (somehow) feel like it's ruining the entire forum. If it were unseen and required work and a conscious decision to see it, it wouldn't have that same effect. And it wouldn't be attempting the impossible, of banning all political discussion everywhere on the site, against the wishes of numerous forum members.

A few supremely disappointing responses here. It will be a sad day when this forum becomes a place where entire subjects of reasonable discussion are outlawed (even from "the pit"). Instead of burning books, how about you guys just learn to get along with people that you don't see eye to eye with?

I want to discuss politics, as do most people who participate in that thread. If it's divisive to the forum, it could be kept in a hidden section (similar to the men's and women's sections where one has to request access before being able to view it). This way, the anti-discussion people would be happy not seeing it, and the pro-discussion people would be happy they're able to discuss. As for the ranting issue...it primarily causes me to worry about someone who does it. I'm speaking directly about 3bob, of course. Sometimes the ranting seems like it's coming from a very unhealthy place. That being said, this has been pointed out multiple times to him, and he hasn't really gone off the deep end. Sometimes he seems able to calm down and joke around a bit. So perhaps the unhealthy aspect of it is just my own projection onto his words. I would hate to see someone get booted for the way they write, or their opinions. If the ranting is seen as similar to spam, and isn't contributing to discussion, then I would hope to see the ranter warned first before getting the boot. If they choose to continue to disobey mod warnings, then it only makes sense that they can't handle the forum at that time...and perhaps a break would help them learn (like it has for me, in the past). Edit: oh, I see now that the thread has been pitted.

Thoughts?

Ah okay I see that now, I found shen gu on page xlvi. Actually, I just found "tian gu" on page 40...it's from "The Original Collection of Zi Qing Zhi" or 紫清指元集, written by Bai Yu Chan...who I think may have lived in the Song dynasty, and was the Sixth Patriarch of the southern branch of Quanzhen Dao, according to this book. This might be the Chinese text of it. This other Song-Ming era Daoist text might be a reference to tian gu.

I looked for where it says that in the book, and I think it says "shen gu" rather than tian gu. I tried searching for 神谷 shen gu, but couldn't find anything in historical texts (on ctext) that had a reference related to the brain (also did a quick google search). Maybe the idea comes from somewhere in the Daoist Canon.

Most of those practices are false teachings...for instance, having sex or masturbating without orgasm, holding back for longer periods from climax, or trying to make the orgasm internal and having multiples. I don't think any of those types of methods have to do with alchemy. It might be true that having sex in a certain way, as opposed to masturbating, is a legitimate alchemical practice...but "in a certain way" is a key phrase there, and "might" is a key word. What's spoken of as "potent" can just mean people are experiencing a mild form of qi deviation, and think that something powerful is happening because they can feel strange sensations. With further practice, they get stronger forms of qi deviation. However, they never attain anything worthwhile with those methods. Even if you experience the essence energy flowing up to the crown, or seeming to be transmuted up there...that's not attainment. Take a look at the first two chapters in the 'look inside' preview on Amazon for Liu Yiming's "Cultivating the Tao" for a better perspective on what jing/essence is in neidan. A lot of people say that in alchemy we refine jing to qi to shen, and they say that laying the foundations in the first stage consists of replenishing jing so that it can be refined...but considering what Liu Yiming says in the book I recommended, is that also a false path? I don't know. As Apech said, sometimes these sexual methods have also proven harmful, and many people come to this forum to get help. My own personal opinion on this stuff (as someone who isn't a teacher): it's good to not repress one's sexuality, by trying to avoid sex. That causes all sorts of problems...better to accept yourself as you are, understanding that sexuality is a natural drive that isn't to be quashed. If you're too horny and you can't stand it anymore, do what you need to do, forgive yourself completely, and don't try to control your sexuality so forcefully. It's one of the strongest natural drives. If you notice abnormalities in any way, it might be the case that you're repressing a bit too much. But it's good to distract oneself from lustful things. For instance, learn a new subject and spend hours each day working on it, or work on projects that take hours out of the day. When you're focused on those things that interest you, you're training your attention to not be focused on sexual stuff. The more time spent away from sexual things, the more easy it is to not become lustful. Why not be lustful? Because I personally think that unaroused potential sexual energies are more useful in these types of practices, as well as for health. Basically, if you have lots of sex, your jing becomes depleted (postnatal taxes the prenatal)...but if you don't, then the jing is at normal levels. Some legitimate practices do use this kind of "energy", so a practitioner who ejaculates will experience a greater loss than a non-practitioner, who doesn't burn the candle at both ends. When we simply see a sexual image, such as a pair of boobs or whatever else we're into, no matter how cultivated we are, there's a subtle reaction in us that gets the sexual process going...and I think that's a drain on the jing. It doesn't have to be ejaculation for jing to be depleted...it just has to be lust. Semen is not jing, but it's produced from jing. When the sexual process has begun, that's jing that has gone to start producing sexual fluids. It begins with thinking about or seeing something sexual. So, my view is that pure celibacy is the way to have sexual energies which are useful for practices that utilize them. Not methods of masturbation while keeping semen inside the body or whatever else. I think aroused sexual energy isn't useful at all. And the celibacy has to be mental celibacy, so as to avoid the loss of jing through lust. If you're watching a movie, and there's a sex scene, instead of avoiding...simply focus on something else for the time being. As opposed to watching the scene and the sexual images starting the process of lust. It can also help to calm the mind through calm abiding meditation. When the mind is calm, that also helps sexual desire not to be stirred up. Changing diet to be less stimulating can also have this effect. It might be the case that replenishing the postnatal jing helps to protect against the taxing of the prenatal jing. Postnatal jing is created from the blood, and it helps the blood to: not overuse the eyes by looking too much, not thinking too much, to go to bed at 10 pm each night and have a good night's rest, to eat nutritious foods and have good digestion, etc. These are just my views on the subject of sex in spirituality, and aren't legitimate alchemy teachings.

Neidan literature (like Eva Wong's book) is really challenging to understand with clarity, so comparing different writings is good. I think it requires continually studying and thinking about it for years before some real understanding comes. Just my view. If a legitimate school of neidan existed, you wouldn't need to know a lot...you could just learn the beginning practices from them, and start. Because that school doesn't exist (as far as I'm aware), and there are many contradictory ideas out there claiming to be right, to start practicing based on one of those ideas just means you'd most likely be starting off on the wrong foot. But if you have knowledge, then you're able to discern the false paths, and you can avoid them or at least consider them in context. For instance, qigong is a health exercise (or hopefully it is) and isn't neidan. Some teachers might claim that a qigong form is for internal alchemy...having read a number of neidan texts, you could know that it's not true. You still might enjoy the practice, but in terms of neidan, you won't be misled. In some cases you might want to avoid a practice, like Mantak Chia's sexual stuff. I think if you want to just start practicing something, then there are definitely things you can learn...

Consider for a second how easily the left calls people "racist", "neo-nazi", "xenophobe", "antisemitic", etc, without evidence and without truly meaning it. They use these previously-meaningful words simply to describe others they don't see eye to eye with...and only sometimes are using the terms accurately. Now consider this: They're deplatforming people who sow "division"...how can they not see the hypocrisy in that?

I think there's an internal balance that happens for the genders...in general, men's bodies are more yang so their minds are more yin. Women's bodies are more yin, so their minds are more yang.

I use a sheepskin rug. If I had both, I'd put the rug over the rubber mat. You know it's good when the material doesn't make your feet cold. For instance, cement would make your feet cold...very bad idea. With sheepskin, my feet even warm up a little bit...great. It's good to study with Max. If you're not able to, then one of his certified students from the site. One breath can be done with pretty much any practice (unless a breath method is part of the practice), or it can be done alone as its own practice. It's good to do for calming the mind, which is helpful prior to Kunlun practice. Good to do it during I-jong. I-jong is good to do prior to Kunlun practice, and was the common way it was done while I was in seminars. Max said it helped ground people. It's also good to do on its own separate from Kunlun. The duration is up to you. Max told us that traditionally his teacher made him do standing practices until there was a puddle of sweat on the ground beneath him. He also said that's not at all necessary or even desirable. We'd often do 10 minutes of standing, during the seminars, prior to Kunlun. If doing it at a separate time, sometimes we'd stand for much longer, like 30 minutes to a couple hours. I think if your body is really hurting, it's not necessary to do it to that extreme of a level. The relaxed and natural way is better.

I've had great results with clearing away poison ivy rash (after it has fully broken out) with essential oils - it vanished entirely within 24 hours. It was a formula of multiple different EOs, but the highest dosage was peppermint, and it was applied direct to the rash area without a carrier oil. Another time after that, when I couldn't afford the formula, I tried it with only peppermint EO, and it still worked fairly well. Doesn't work when you first get the rash...and the poison ivy oil needs to be cleaned away first, otherwise it just spreads. As a side note - if you know that you've touched poison ivy, within 1 hour of contact, gently scrub the area with dish detergent and a wash cloth multiple times (using multiple clean washcloths). Only works if done shortly after contact...wait too long and it will have gotten into the deeper layers of the skin, and cleaning it will cause the rash to spread.

I don't know of any legitimate neidan school, although it may exist in China. You should definitely check out all of the books from: http://goldenelixir.com/goldenelixir_press.html, and read and compare them all very carefully. Eva Wong's "Tao of Health, Longevity, and Immortality" is worth looking into. And really study the history of Daoism and internal alchemy (neidan).

What an interesting idea. And also pretty humorous.

I love his quotes. Really interesting guy, too, if you haven't looked into his life. ... For me, spirituality is something I currently aspire to. I'm only aware of the realm of the spirit in terms of feelings...maybe also a vision every once in a while, or having insight. From this perspective, for me, the spiritual is something which exists, but not so much materially. Like love, peace, etc...we can be very aware of these things, but we can't weigh them. I'm aware of the presence of God as a feeling, or as newage people would put it, the divine...I just think about God and my admiration (some would call bhakti), and then experience elevating feelings that surround and envelop me. But I think there's more to it than what I'm personally aware of...I think my spiritual senses are dim and very average. So I study this stuff, explore different traditions and methods constantly, and do daily practices, in the hope that one day I'll become attained and actually know what I'm talking about.

I haven't looked through this closely yet (thread of tweets, must be clicked to see them all), but saving it here:

Does anyone know if there is an "interlinear" or "trot" translation of the Daodejing? What I mean by this: where it contains the Chinese character, and then below each character, an English nearly-word for word translation? And/or one that compares and contrasts all of the different versions and fragments of the DDJ? Such as Guodian, Heshang Gong, etc. And/or one that contains traditional commentaries? If not, wouldn't it be great if this existed in one book?