Arkady Shadursky

 Daoist practicing inner alchemy

     Daoist Centre DaoDe is happy to invite everyone to the practical seminar on Daoist Alchemy in Paris, France. This is the first seminar of the Dao De Center which we will lead outside of China and Russia. It is the first time in a history for two famous Schools - Wuliupai and Yuxianpai to be presented in Europe.

     This is exceptional opportunity to study the basic methods of both Schools (lying the foundation stage) and get first hand experience in Traditional Daoism.

Translation into French will be provided.

ABOUT THE DAO DE CENTER

Dao De Center is the official branch of the Closed WuLiupai Daoist Alchemy School and official branch of Open Yuxianpai Daoist Alchemy School. Instructors of Dao De Center are regularly visiting high level Masters in China and taking lessons in Alchemy and Martial Arts. Most andvanced instructors were encouraged by Patriarchs of the Traditional Daoist Schools to spread Daoism and teach people.

ABOUT THE INSTRUCTOR

Master Aleksei Alekseevich Khokhlov is cheif instructor of the Dao De Center. He has been studying Daoist Alchemy directly from Patriarchs in China and has achieved high level in the practice. This is the first time when he will visit Europe personally to transmit his knowledge to the Western students. Being a teacher in both Schools he will be able to instruct students in methods of:

1.    Yuxianpai - The School of Ma Danyang, disciple of Wang Chongyang, founder of Quanzhen 

2.    WuLiupai - The School of Wu Chongxu and Lui Huayang, successor of the famous Quanzhen Longmenpai School.

THE PROGRAM

1. Daogong

Initial preliminary method Daogong which is specially designed to prepare human body for practicing Neidan methods. It has proved its efficiency by hundreds of students and practice of Alchemy goes several times faster with this method. Beyond alchemy this method helps to:

– build-up health (external body) and calm down mind (internal spirit) 

– boost energy level 

– achieve relaxation in the body 

– improve sleep quality 

– increse social conditions (many students report of achieving social success in 6-18 months after starting our program)

This base method provides a perfect foundation for all the other practices we teach.

2. Traditional Yuxianpai Neidan School

– Introduction to the School

– First two levels - Shengong and Gangong. These are the Circuits of exercises for first two Wuxing elements in human body - the Water (represented by kidneys) and the Wood (represented by liver). – Special methods done in sleep. 

– Exam and continuation of the practice for the experienced students.

3. Traditional Wuliupai Neidan School 

– Introduction to the School 

– The first level of WuLiupai School deep workout of mind and body 

4. Theory lectures. Providing Traditional (orthodox) view to the Daoism and Alchemy.

– Daoism. Introduction to Alchemy as the root of Daoism. 3 ways of Alchemy (Inner Alchemy, Pair Alchemy, External Alchemy)

– The human structure. Xing and Ming. The Goal of Inner Alchemy. 

- Stages of the Way of Immortality

– True process of self-cultivation. The difference with modern deviations

– Questions and Answers

SCHEDULE & PRICE

Base part:

May, 14th - 10:00-17:00

May, 15th - 10:00-17:00

Price: 300 euro

Advanced part (optional):

May, 16th - 10:00-17:00

Price: 150 euro

On students' request there is an opportunity to organize private lessons. If you are interested please note this in your registration email.

The seminar will be translated in French

STUDENTS' TESTIMONIALS

Please see by this link.

REGISTRATION (only 3 places left!)

Please register for the seminar by the following emails:

[email protected] (in English)

[email protected] (in French)

We will be glad to see you on our Seminar!

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Best Regards,

Arkady

My observation is that very few at this site are interested in this as an active practice.   My observation is that most follow much earlier/more ancient energetic, magic and/or natural methods.

Dawei, I really happy for those people who are practicing some methods better than Lu Dongbin and Lao Zi have transmitted to us.

Well, as far as there is no more "proofs" for misleading concepts, Dao can finally take it's rights

Daoism is a family of faiths and beliefs tied by source texts subject matter and historical association.

 

Thank you. I totally agree and accept.)

 

Absolutely)

Thank you very much, now we clearly see what is your approach to the Neidan   

Ish, I can attest to the demonstrable results of the school. I was very sick and close to death, hospitalized twice and suffered from a complete body shutdown the 2nd time I was in the hospital. After I began Daogong, within the first week of training my symptoms improved. Every so often I have a bad day, but now I am able to function like a completely normal person and I have only been training for a little over 1 year. No other system has been able to do that for me, not SFQ, not Vajrasattva Qigong, not Yang Style Taiji and not even Buddhist Medical Qigong that I learned from a temple. There is definitely something within this tradition that sets it apart from anything else. Whereas 90% of modern qigong is imbalanced in some way and can only help certain people, Daogong (which is level -1) can benefit anyone. It can benefit anyone because it is totally balanced in all aspects.

The above is one of the many examples of the Daoist practice results in our Center. In our work we do not use any faith / religion approaches.

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Best Regards,

Arkady

If I tell you Wu Liu pai has the similar situation, you might be very angry and attack me.

P.S. Sorry, I couldn't resist   

 Logic can't be applied to reality. 

The first professional and full translation of the work I found does not use the word 'impossible'... so I find any discussion on the matter impossible...    You should accept that this is how you would translate it but others may not.

Have you given thought to how other traditions and practices have evolved over time? Take for instance the Bible teachings- the Old Testament and the New Testament, Buddhism and the turnings of the dharma wheel and how Buddha's teaching evolved with each turning.

1.  Initially God was speaking directly to people, there were miracles happening... There was Edem in the end!

    

2.  Later the Christianity has changed. God hasn't shown himself but luckily (for us) Jesus came and he was able to rise people from the dead.

    

3.  Later (lets say medieval period) the Christianity has changed again. There were no more persons like Jesus but "at least" there were Saints who were making miracles and heal people.

    

4.  And nowadays the Christianity has "evolved" even more. A lot of traditional values are being "upgraded" to fit modern society. And now we can see neither Saints nor miracles anymore.

Additionally, I believe it to be the reason you became a member of TDB.

Of course it's not, kar3n. It pains me to hear you make such accusations when my only concern is for spreading the Dao Teaching. I'd like to answer you separately in the other thread so nobody has doubts in this respect any more. Please follow the link: http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43568-the-goal/

What is the first language of the person who did the translation? Chinese, Russian, English? If not what is it? I think there is something lost here between the meanings of words in different languages. I am willing to sit down and explore the differences of the meaning the words in all languages involved to hopefully settle this ongoing dispute or at the very least find some common ground.

Marblehead, kar3n, Wu Ming Jen, thank you for sharing your opinion.
However this thread is not about possibility of oneself to understand everything from books, but about particular translation and its mistakes. And concerning translation we see here 不可 which can be translated no way else but impossible. (literally 不 - not 可 - possible). That is what Yuan Gongfu has written in his passage.

If you'd like to discuss if it is possible to understand everything from books in Traditional Daoism, please welcome to my thread I specially created for that. (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43551-understanding-everything-from-daoist-texts/)
 

In chinese a student is called  (dizi 弟子, tudi 徒弟). You assume that 弟 means a brother.
Question: if a teacher has only one student, how is the student called?
Answer: of course he is also called  (dizi 弟子, tudi 徒弟) in absence of any brothers. 
Thus  di 弟 is not a brother, and students are NOT called brothers/sisters.

Unfortunately this logic doesn't work here and can't be applied to Chinese reality.
We can discuss a lot about why do we have 师父 but don't have 师妈 and if it is ever possible to be 弟子 without having 师妈 and so on and on. However it has nothing to do with how it really setup in Traditional Schools.

If you would ever been accepted to Traditional School you'd know that disciples are calling each other "brother" or "sister".

BTW, to extend your understanding of Chinese culture and Traditional relationships in the Schools you can read Journey to the West, and check how do disciples of Xuanzang are calling each other ("Brother Pig", "Second Brother", "Elder Brother", "Brother Monkey" etc.)

Anyway latest two posts of you have nothing to do with translating 不可 and the other mistake - treating two different authors as one and calling them twins as you did before.
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Best Regards,
Arkady

Hello everyone.

In this thread I'd like to continue discussion about "if it is possible/impossible to get everything from Books" which has started here ( http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43462-correct-words-of-patriarchs/)

Back in time A.A. Khokhlov provided quotes from multiple Treatises where explicitly written that it's impossible to attain the Dao without the True Teacher (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/).

This shows us that it's not a position of a single writer, but position of entire Traditional Daoism.

I would say that if such great Patriarchs as Zhang Boduan, Liu Huayang and others were writing that one can't get full knowledge from books even if he/she is smartest and talented person, than its most likely they had reasons to write it.

This is the position of the Tradition (and also my point)
Thank you
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Regards,
Arkady

Yeah, this is why I feel the need to occasionally state here on this forum that unless I am quoting someone, which I rarely do, everything I post here is my opinion and/or my understanding.

 

I don't normally question what someone supposedly said but I do often question the translation of what was supposedly said.

 

And I also sometimes question what has been said as it contradicts what I have learned from first hand experience.

 

I normally avoid discussions concerning the need for a teacher as I don't want to be treading in someone's field of experience and activity.

 

But I will remain with not liking the word "impossible" unless we are talking about something in the Manifest, like, It is impossible for me to fly with only my own physical capabilities and capacities.

It is ok if we are talking about the big topic of necessity of Teacher's transmission - A.A.Khokhlov has started a separate topic about this earlier (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/#entry726940) and we can discuss it there.

Since I do not read chinese and do not understand the cultural context the text was written in: Although it becomes illogical to us (just as you point out), would it have been as illogical to a chinese person, long ago?

 

Just trying to understand differences in translations here, I am not question you translation in it self.

I understand it. I can only point you to basic dictionaries and examples so you can make your own opinion. We can not study Wenyan together as part of this discussion 

 

So here I can only tell you the conclusions of our research: according to context - it also can not be "not allowed" as in the entire text there is no other place where someone would "disallow understanding". Neither in other neidan texts   . It also doesn't contain grammatical constructions pointing us to such a meaning. 

 

Moreover these words of Yuan Gongfu are rephrased words of Patriarch Zhang Boduan, you can see the original quote here (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/#entry726940). It also says about necessity of verbal teaching and corresponds to the sense of "not possible".

 

And anyway, it doesn't seems possible to translate "不可" as "hard".

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Best Regards,

Arkady

Hi Arkady,

 

why Longmen Pai Master come to teach you Nei Dan when you have Wu Liu Pai - Nei Dan which is as we see advanced?

 

You even have Yu Xian Pai Nei Dan,so I dont know why criticising Longmen or Qianfeng Pai then invite Longment to teach?This is strange to me.

 

Ormus

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Regards,

Arkady

The different translations might deny possibility, but gives very different reasons for it. Not possible and not allowed, they are very different.

Actually, I don't like seeing the word "impossible" in Taoist texts.  To me it indicated the reader/speaker feels they have full knowledge of "Potential/Mystery/wu".  We can define what is, we cannot define what might become.

 

Therefore I would question the suggest of "impossible" but agree with "hard" or difficult.

So, in the light of the texts the argument started with.

 

What would a proper translation be?

 

That you are not allowed to truly study nei dan without a teacher?

Because the teacher is forbidden by Heaven to teach to openly?

"the myriad of the texts describe only the principles of refining the elixir, but as to starting the work and incepting it, and as to the subtleties of the fire phases – without getting those personally from a teacher – even if your talent surpasses   颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn), then these are impossible to comprehend" 

Literally it means that all the texts describe only the latest stages of practice (principles of the refining).

But what about the beginning work (foundation) and "subtleties of the fire phases" - even if you are smarter than 颜(yán) and 闵(mǐn) (smartests students of Confucius) - yet you will be unable to get it without a Teacher.

"not permitted", "not allowed", "not possible" - all of this is denying of possibility. But this phrase can not be translated as "hard to". It doesn't have a symbol for "hard".

If there is not enough links were provided above, I'd provide more:
 

We were too busy laughing at the shamelessness of your team telling a Chinese lady that you know her own language better than her. Hahaha, a bunch of laowai tourists telling a native Chinese that she does not know her own language.

Is it a racial harassment of the forum members? Are you pointing that nationality "Chinese" overcome other nationalities? That non-Chinese could not understand ancient Chinese better than Chinese?

"bunch of laowai tourists " - well, this actuallly is an example of personal offend attempt. There are neither arguments behind nor it pointing to a mistake - nothing. This is your common tactic, when you are out of arguments for polite answer 

Okay, fine.  Discuss how you translated the word compared to how he translated the word.  And really, discussions are for the purpose of transmitting and understanding concepts, not specific individual words.

Except the words used were 'incorrect', 'false' and 'intentional'...  that is hardly to be re-stated now as simply bad.

 

Well, "bad" is a general word for the above. If I see incorrect and probably intentionally false translation - do I have a right to say that? I can be wrong - but I have published my opinion openly, and anyone is free to discuss it and show me my (probable) mistakes. I am free for argued discussion and it is how I believe, for example, our talk with Marblehead goes. 

 

The tries to expose oneself as a victim for several days not providing a single argued comment on the topic itself - is quite rough kind of that Taiji play 

 

Especially in our case, when I'm simply politely and openly expressing my opinion.

 

Thank you.

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Arkady

But you're just re-quoting posts that are part of a thread that was moved to Chaos and not really doing much different than trying to draw attention to another member instead of speaking your own words.

 

This thread may end up with the same outcome as it is being used as a vehicle as mentioned.

Okay.  You both are just totally fucking wrong.  How do you like that?

 

The next time I see Chuang Tzu I will ask him who is right.  I'll lay money that he says you both are right.

How about laying money, asking not Zhuangzi, but simply some modern translator?   

Yes, this is true.  Does it matter if they were brothers or cousins?

They were brothers in School and cousins genealogically. Yes it matters for providing correct translation - to distinguish words of 2 different people. It was not done in initial translation by "Taoist Texts" - and here I've pointed it out.

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Best Regards,

Arkady

But Arkady, You simply do not know what you said to be a truth.  You have no way of viewing his mind in order to know if there was intent or if there was no intent.  You simply negated what he said in order to promote your opinion.

 

And who is to say who is wrong?  Someone who agrees with you?  That wouldn't work.  Someone who agrees with him?  That wouldn't work either.  Someone who had no opinion?  They would likely say that you both are wrong (or maybe right).

Continuing this tactic (see post #11) wouldn't benefit you since it became obvious to everyone.

Here, they call  "Wu Chongxu and his brother Wu Shouxu ", the two Wu, brothers.

Three lines down they note that one of them is 堂弟 -a  younger male patrilineal cousin.

Students of the same School are called brothers (sisters in case of women) in Daoism. It would be nice to learn it before attempting to translate Daoist texts   

By the way, people, the notion that one could go to live in or visit a Daoist temple in China and never see anger is total fantasy. I've personally witnessed wise, respected, typically soft-spoken, and *famously compassionate* Daoist masters display the full range of rage and wrath. I've seen people who got out of line be excoriated with volume and vigor plenty of times. Supposedly in its heyday Wudang had a prison for wayward monks. White Cloud Monastery monks immolated one who was corrupt and colluded with Japanese occupying forces. There has always been rebuke, including wrathful rebuke, in this tradition. In Daoism one is not required to eat a sandwich full of bullshit and then thank the chef. One can waltz into a message board and get away with being full of it, so long as one dresses one's insults up in pseudo politeness and a facetious passive aggressive veneer. That doesn't work in traditional Daoist circles, which are happy to reject and eject.

Agree. The image of "calm Daoist" is mostly a Western legend about Daoists of China. Two examples from our personal experience:

The first is from 1990s, when a Russian tourist came with us to a Chinese Daoist temple. Daoists didn't allow to make any photo or video recording there. We warned this tourist to not try to film something. He did not listen us and started to film. Suddenly Daoist angrily came to that tourist, pulled out the camera from his hands and has broken the expensive lens, powerly throwing it on the floor. The tourist was shocked, saying "I thought Daoists should be calm and non-doing so I can do whatever I want..."