KuroShiro

On 4/24/2019 at 4:46 PM, dwai said:

I find it amusing how we have the preconception that a Master must be a “saint”. Even after enlightenment, certain personality traits will remain. Otherwise, the personality would become extremely boring

 

I'm starting this thread because of this post by dwai which I think touched on a very interesting and important subject.

Even if we're not talking about enlightenment personality by itself is a fascinating subject.

I would like to know if there is an equivalent word for saint in Chinese and if so what are the Chinese characters. It would also be great to know the equivalent word in other traditions.

What changes in one's personality, emotions... in the path to enlightenment?

The masters talk about a constant inner happiness not dependent of the external circumstances/outside world, I first read about this in Chuang Tzu. Does this happiness relates to Love?

Do you know if enlightenment (or something else beyond it) is what we are meant to "achieve" in this earthly realm (kind of a kindergarten) and until then there is reincarnation?

The conversation has started, these are the posts from the other thread:

On 4/27/2019 at 12:16 PM, freeform said:

And a master should be a saint after enlightenment.

 

The only reason they aren’t is because they’re not enlightened  

 

In almost all instances I’ve come across ‘awakening’ is confused with ‘enlightenment’ - and they’re very different.

 

incidentally the highest number of confused enlightenments I’ve come across is in the Advaita Vedanta tradition.

 

Not because it’s flawed in some way, but maybe because it so readily achieves an awakening in its students. That’s where I had my first taste of awakening.

1 hour ago, Wayfarer said:

The energy coming out of someone's head and a master becoming a saint after enlightenment is a misunderstanding sorry.

 

We may be looking for something special, that our aura becomes bright or special things happen during awakening BUT enlightenment is the sudden realisation of what you are and have always been.  All that changes is the knowing, the understanding.  So, if a halo is on top of your head, it was there already.  If you become saint, well that is only because you can now rest and be tranquil.

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Again - that is not enlightenment. That’s awakening. These are very different.

 

I think it’s normal to ‘lower the bar’ to a ‘height’ we find more acceptable or realistic. But the classical teachings are quite clear about what enlightenment is and what awakening is and what they aren’t. And the two are profoundly different even if along the same line of development.

 

This is important.

27 minutes ago, Wayfarer said:

No, they are the same.  And there is no line of development.

22 hours ago, silent thunder said:

Upon thinking review, I guess it's disingenuous to say thoughts are totally intangible, when they seem to be comprised or associated with energy, at least as it applies to brain.

 

They directly and sometimes deeply impact physiology.

 

Though I don't and so far can't accept that thought is generated by the physical brain.

Brain seems a focusing agent, a tool so to speak, not unlike a radio or television for tuning in frequencies.

 

Thought seems to arise from awareness, as does the physical to me.  Not vice versa.

 

Great post! Thoughts are not intangible, I see the brain as a relay, part of the One that is Body, Mind, Spirit. Thanks for your radio and television analogy.

5 hours ago, freeform said:

In the Longmen tradition there is a lot of Ping Heng Gong... which is a sort of ‘exchanging’ of Qi with your environment. But really it’s not the case that you give or receive an ‘amount’ of Qi.

 

What happens is that you can harmonise your Qi with something in the environment (usually trees in Ping Heng Gong)... sometimes you’ll feel ‘energised’ like you ‘received’ Qi and sometimes you’ll feel tired and drained like you’ve ‘given’ Qi. But what happens is a kind of harmonisation to the quality of Qi in you and the tree and the general environmental conditions. Qi in this context is a kind of ‘transformative information’ not so much a substance.

Are you saying that it's impossible to receive an ‘amount’ of Qi from Nature?

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Giving and receiving Qi is again an over-simplification. It doesn’t really work like that as Qi in that context isn’t a substance.

5 hours ago, freeform said:

A master projecting Qi is a different thing altogether. It’s often not a pretty sight either 

Could you please clarify this? Are you saying that Qi is a substance in the context of a master projecting Qi? I didn't make any distinctions regarding masters or students but of course masters are more interesting/higher level.

5 hours ago, freeform said:

Incidentally - you don’t do this with people because you’re full of pathogens that you’ll be transferring into people (unless you’ve fully purified yourself... which generally takes at least 10yrs of diligent practice).

Also regarding what I asked above. If you're transferring pathogens into people doesn't that mean that they are receiving your Qi?

Thanks.

On 4/24/2019 at 4:46 PM, dwai said:

I find it amusing how we have the preconception that a Master must be a “saint”. Even after enlightenment, certain personality traits will remain. Otherwise, the personality would become extremely boring  

 

This is thread worthy, no?

2 hours ago, Sebastian said:

The secret of the small universe of SFQ is aligning the internal intent of the practitioner with the external intent of the Master singing the names of the accupoints.

Does the Master also projects Qi to the acupuncture points? Also does the small universe of SFQ goes down through the Ren Mai or Central Channel?

Have you asked Master Lin if he also used visualization when learning from his teachers?

1 hour ago, freeform said:

We would take on the correct posture - release into the elastic tissues of the body (if they’re actually built) and engage the Dantien which ‘animates’ through the tissues. Then you open the laogong by sunging the tissues in the palm until a slight stretch expands from the centre. All the while your Ting permeates through the body...

15 minutes ago, Sebastian said:

Personally, I don't think a posture approach would open the Laogong in the same way as in the glass tube exercise. The intent would be slightly different. Because yours is to use the mechanics of the body and of Qi to open all muscles, bones and soft tissues in an optimal way. You are working from the perspective of the body and mind, and there's nothing wrong with that. It will lead to a different opening, something that's optimal from body Qi mechanics perspective. I'm not saying that's better or worst, just different.

This is very interesting. Are you talking about opening the Laogong to give Qi to yourself or project to others? Can't a high level Master do this almost instantaneously?

Have you both learned how to completely close all the acupuncture points? This can also be done right?

2 hours ago, Sebastian said:

It will keep doing this until your Dantian is full and can't take anymore.

Is it possible for the LDT to be full?

Thanks

14 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Yup, exactly - the Shangqing (later known as Maoshan) lineage does use some visualisation. It’s actually quite a difficult practice as the visualisation has to be incredibly lifelike and detailed - as in if someone asked how many stitches are in Guan Yin’s lapels, you’d be able to ‘look’ inside and count them... 

 

 

Ok - the modern perspective stems from this idea that ‘the brain can’t distinguish between an imagined thing and a real thing’. It’s a pretty shaky theory to say the least. The evidence for the theory is based on some pretty blunt brain imaging tools... What proponents say though is that if you vividly imagine eating a lemon you’ll naturally salivate as if eating a real one...

 

Ok - but what happens if you imagine that you have really big muscles?

 

That’s what imagining Qi is trying to do. The underlying structure for your channels has a physical component and you have to literally build these physical structures - that’s what the internal arts are doing. You can physically feel the Jing Jin lines (the physical aspect of the channels) under an authentic Qigong practitioner’s skin with your finger. You can feel a solid mass of tissue in the abdomen - and that’s the Dantien.

 

Another thing is that by working with the tissues and using your awareness in a particular way you literally build Qi. Yes you can take in Qi through food and breathing and from your surroundings - but it’s a tiny ‘amount’ in comparison to what is built internally through proper Qigong and Neigong.

 

Qi Gong is the mastery of Qi -  and part of that is building Yang Qi and Yin Qi. These are not vague metaphorical ideas - when a teacher issues Yang Qi it feels like being zapped by an electric fence - the reaction is the same... when they issue Yin Qi it feels like a strong physical contraction or expansion in your body (kind of like the blood pressure sleeve) - an observer will be able to see this. Similarly when practicing I feel electric currents in parts of my body, or physical contractions and expansions in my (relaxed) muscles or other tissues.

 

So yes using awareness, intention and imagination can actually move some Qi. But it moves a tiny ‘amount’ of Qi.

 

The other issue is that the mind is simply not still enough to move Qi properly without causing issues. Say you’re focusing your attention around your microcosmic orbit - the smallest deviation from that task - the tiniest movement of mind will throw the whole thing off course. Say a dog barks outside or the tiniest flicker of a thought moves through your mind - you’ve just deviated.

 

That’s why it can be dangerous. Because even though it’s moving tiny amounts of Qi, if you practice a lot, regularly and with strong focus you will create deviations in your basic flow.

 

Another reason is delusion. Say you put your awareness on your palm, focus it there and pay attention to it for as long as you can. You will feel all kinds of interesting stuff. Focused attention will engage your nervous system and your mind will interpret the resulting sensations in many different ways... usually depending on what movies you’ve been watching or books you’ve been reading. 90% of people who ‘feel Qi’ are actually doing just this.

 

All of my teachers have said to not pay undue attention to phenomena and sensations that come about through practice. Classically there are the ‘8 touches of qi’ - these are groups of sensations that arise as a result of Qi.

 

They will be there, but they’re not important in themselves and if you focus on these sensations or try and ‘increase’ them or ‘direct’ them or anything like that - you will create deviations in your practice or a fascination that will stop any further progress. So eg. if you got really involved in these electric current sensations, or the different pulsing and vibrations you get, your quality of mind will move away from creating the correct causes that generate results, and instead will lead into the world of phenomena - distractions that generally lead to delusion or just loss of skill.

 

Eventually you do gain a direct perception of Qi without the faulty filters of your nervous system and imagination - but that happens after a long time (and isn’t strictly necessary to progress anyway).

 

And I’ve been talking about Qi as if it’s a kind of ‘substance’ - but it’s not. At certain stages it does become, to all intents and purposes, a type of substance (like Yin Qi and Yang Qi) - but if you ‘zoom in’ - Qi is basically ‘transformational information in action’... ok that doesn’t really make sense... urgh it’s so tricky to explain... let’s just imagine some fluid-like energy moving around instead  

7 hours ago, freeform said:

 

Seems reasonable, but it’s wrong.

 

I’ve been scolded for doing this countless times. (I have very ‘traditional’ teachers 😄)

 

I’ve tried tracing my awareness down without visualisation. Wrong.

 

I've tried imagining a sensation of sinking going from the head down. Still wrong.

 

Its again one of those over-simplifications. Sinking the Qi is an absolute fundamental aspect of Qi Gong training. And the problem is, that if you go about it in some ‘training wheels’ simplified way (and normally it’s just the instruction to ‘put your awareness on your Dantien’) that simplification gets built into your practice and your whole foundation becomes built on a fundamental error.

 

With sinking, as soon as you use the mind in some way, the Qi rises - and cannot sink.

 

You can use your mind to create all kinds of feelings and images of sinking and the Qi will rise up to your head and help your mind imagine these things!

 

”So how the f*%#k do you actually sink the stupid f*%#king Qi!?” - this was a massive frustration for me for months.

 

The answer is create the correct qualities in body and mind and the Qi will sink under its own ‘weight’.

 

It’s like mud settling at the bottom of an undisturbed pond.

 

You have to allow it to do its own sinking. Any meddling, however helpful it might seem, will bring the mud back up.

 

The body needs to be structured correctly - this is the key. You need the right structure and you need to reach a certain level of Sung. Then you need to develop the right quality of Ting with your mind.

 

When your body is structured correctly... when you’re Sung... when you’ve tuned to the correct quality of Ting... and you don’t disturb your mind with imagination or intent or active thoughts... only then will the Qi sink of its own accord. The feeling is unmistakeable. And the approving micro-nod from teacher is very satisfying (which raises the Qi again 😄)

 

There is another piece of that puzzle - and that’s the Dantien - if you have at least the beginnings of one, and you have some activation and concentration of Qi there - then sinking becomes much easier. Qi attracts Qi.

 

Some teachers will activate your Dantien for you to enable you to sink. Mine did the opposite - he let me struggle for months and only when I finally managed it, he activated my Dantien and it started to build (physically). Frustrating experience and a lot of time, but I gained the skill of sinking, developed patience and learned the level of intricacy in every little mechanic in these arts - clever teacher  

1 hour ago, freeform said:

 

Yeah you’re quite right. ‘Not adding’ is a big part of it... much of the spiritual path is letting go, shedding.

 

 

Actually ‘feeling for’ would be an error in my teacher’s eyes... it’s too ‘active’.

 

Ting - which is the quality of awareness that needs to be used is translated as ‘listening’.

 

It’s for a good reason - listening is the most passive of the senses - sounds come to you, you don’t ‘look for’ them - there’s also no real ‘border’ to listening you can hear an airplane many miles away and you can hear the electricity flowing through the motherboard of your computer.

 

And when Tinging - you’re not listening for something. You’re just listening - whether you hear silence or activity, it doesn’t matter - you keep that quality without grasping at phenomena.

 

Again as everything with these arts it’s a subtle, intricate balancing act. To learn it you have to get it wrong many times, realise the error, correct for it and in time you just ‘get it’ - just like finding your balance on a bicycle for the first time.

Thank you!

20 minutes ago, freeform said:

 

There is some in certain lineages, yes. Generally more to do with ‘sorcery’ type work - and not internal cultivation as such.

 

There is no visualisation to move Qi in the body. There is actually very little in the way of using intent to move energy too (there are exceptions - usually for beginners).

 

The point is to create conditions in the body and mind to allow the energy to move of its own accord. This is done by using Sung and Ting (active release and listening) - not the will, focused attention, intent or visualisation.

Thank you.

Is Maoshan one of those lineages?

22 minutes ago, freeform said:

There are many reasons for this - one fundamental one is that it goes against the principle of wei wu wei. There are others that I can go into if anyone’s interested - but the message is basically - don’t use visualisation...

I'm always interested.

Yes my gut feeling has always been no visualization but had no way to know if it was used or not.

Thanks.

19 hours ago, freeform said:

Visualisation as form of inner cultivation is a modern invention (a simplification) and an error that can only create issues or more often have no useful result.

Would you say that in Classical Daoist Traditions there's absolutely no visualization whatsoever?

On 2/15/2019 at 10:15 PM, flowing hands said:

Today Many school Children bunked off school in protest of not enough is being done about this ever approaching disaster. We are losing nearly 1000 species every month. There are currently 36% human population, 60% cattle and domesticated animals and 4% wild animals inhabit this earth. Yes its shocking. The sea has also lost massive amounts of species also. As Dao followers what do you think we can do to help this disaster? Give us some ideas to help solve this problem. I know what I have done, but I want to hear what others think. 

Everyone should please stop talking about Climate Change. That's not the problem, it's a symptom, your thread title doesn't address the real issue: humans are destroying the Planet Earth.

4 hours ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

I don't think there is much good in considering these texts as Cultivation Manuals.

 

That's not what they are.

 

Cleansing is like "Washing".

 

So - in "Marrow and Brain Washing Classic" - what is meant in there by "Washing"?

 

That is the Cultivation meaning too - "Cleansing".

Did anyone study this? If not, Internal Cultivation - how could you do it?

 

But these books you looking at are, like DaoDeJing, books about municipal management and the kind of person and attitude doing this.

 

Not manuals about how to do Internal Cultivation. 

 

Not even "philosophy", but infused with that and just utilizing that.

 

 

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

So you're saying that the Classical Chinese/Daoist Tradition(s) is/are wrong?

4 hours ago, Fa Xin said:

Curious as to the back story of Falun Gong, the origins... like How did Mr Li come to the practices? Were they channeled or did he claim to invent them or learn them somewhere? Anyone know?

 

 

Interview with Li Hongzhi:

TIME: When did you learn about qigong?
Li: I started to learn when I was four years old. I was very young, and my teachers taught me aspects that were very simple.

TIME: Who were your teachers?
Li: I do not wish to have their names known. I had masters in two schools. Prior to the Cultural Revolution people enjoyed quite a bit of religious freedom. Chinese were quite used to such things. It was like going to church in the West.

TIME: When did you start teaching?
Li: I am more than 40 years old, and I have been practicing qigong for many years. When qigong became popular, I did not come out in the public. I did not want to teach about stopping illnesses or keeping fit.

TIME: What made you finally come out?
Li: When these masters asked me to come out. At the time I said that there were too many people practicing qigong, and I said that I did not want to cure illnesses or to help people keep fit. They said, What you do will be different. These people who are teaching how to cure illnesses and teaching fitness, are paving the road for your coming out.

TIME: Where were these masters?
Li: They were in the mountains.

Have you seen this?

On 4/26/2017 at 4:07 AM, dawei said:

 

I think it depends on the type of sage you're referring to.  Would we say that Shamans were sages too ?   Or Buddha's who choose to remain within the world to help mankind?

 

The sage follows heaven and earth in viewing without partiality the arising/returning of the dualistic world.   That is like universal mind at work.  The subset of the local mind understands the manifest life and how people do not understand the universal mind truth.    The sage can bridge the local and universal understanding of mind.

 

 

 

I've long wanted to research this further and maybe we can.  I've mentioned it before and recall it was the Celestial Master's commentary on LZ that talks about it.  So it was easier to google and get one link for now:

 

http://bhoffert.faculty.noctrl.edu/TEACHING/REL275/CelestialMasters.html

 

 

How do I quote a thread?

Forming Spirits for the Way: The Cosmology of the Xiang'er Commentary to the Laozi MICHAEL PUETT

Becoming Laozi: Cultivating and Visualizing Spirits in Early Medieval China - Michael Puett

Early Daoist Scriptures - Stephen R. Bokenkamp (JSTOR)

Early Daoist Scriptures - Stephen R. Bokenkamp

Celestial Masters History and Ritual in Early Daoist Communities Terry F. Kleeman

Zuo Tradition (Zuozhuan; sometimes called The Zuo Commentary) is China's first great work of history. It consists of two interwoven texts - the Spring and Autumn Annals (Chunqiu, a terse annalistic record) and a vast web of narratives and speeches that add context and interpretation to the Annals. Completed by about 300 BCE, it is the longest and one of the most difficult texts surviving from pre-imperial times. It has been as important to the foundation and preservation of Chinese culture as the historical books of the Hebrew Bible have been to the Jewish and Christian traditions. It has shaped notions of history, justice, and the significance of human action in the Chinese tradition perhaps more so than any comparable work of Latin or Greek historiography has done to Western civilization. This translation, accompanied by the original text, an introduction, and annotations, will finally make Zuozhuan accessible to all.

https://www.amazon.com/Zuo-Tradition-Zuozhuan-Commentary-Classics/dp/0295999152/ref=tmm_hrd_title_3?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=

I would like to know if this is highly recommended reading and if there is a free translation available online.

thanks

5 hours ago, GSmaster said:

Ability to see Qi is level 0.

Ability to propell Qi causing Pyrokinesis / Telekinesis is level 1.

 

Ability to see QI is rare.

2 hours ago, Spotless said:

It can clearly be seen though “it” has many variations.

 

With eyes open and inner sight.

 

And quite easily it can be felt, project and gathered.

Does the ability to see Qi precedes the ability to project Qi?

Can you give an estimate of the time required (with correct practice) until one is able to see Qi?

GSmaster do you place Wai Qi Liao Fa also on level 1?

Can you say what are levels 2, 3...?

13 hours ago, freeform said:

Actually I’d say Yi Jing study is a must if you really want to get into the mindset of Daoism.

Is it possible to study and really understand the Yi Jing without a teacher?

5 hours ago, freeform said:

 

It would take at least an hour for me to write that up...

 

If there are a number of people really interested then I’ll make the effort.

 

Yes, please.

5 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

Anyway precognitive visions are based on strong emotional events that then trigger a Yuan Qi storage into the 5th dimension.

May I ask how did you come to this conclusion? This is very interesting, could you please elaborate?

Are you saying strong emotional events in the future or also in the present? But what about precognitive visions that have no strong emotional events attached?

6 hours ago, OldDog said:

 

How so, KS?

One should practice everyday but of course this isn't always possible. There's a Chinese saying: skipping a day of practice is like losing the practice/progress of a whole week (something like this).

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

As for my Daoist views and energy practice, I proceed from the point of view that Daoism cannot be simply a philosophical mental exercise, that there has to be a physical practice in order to appropriately balance the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. Its like a three legged stool. Lose one leg and you're gonna have a problem. 

Daoism encompasses practice and philosophy. Can we say practice is applied philosophy?

3 hours ago, OldDog said:

My practice tends to be sporadic. I will practice regularly for a while and take a break and then resume again.

Big mistake?

2 hours ago, wandelaar said:

First I want to find a way to relate my body feelings to chi, if that is possible. That will then give me a handle to further explore the concept of chi in the human body. Until now all statements about chi flowing in the human body are just empty talk to me. It has to relate to something that I can understand and/or feel before I am prepared to actually work with it.

Go to a good acupuncturist.

17 hours ago, freeform said:

My primary teacher is from a branch of the Dragon Gate tradition. Although I did train for quite a few years in another (quite different) lineage.

6 hours ago, MIchael80 said:

I have met a lineage holder of an longmen lineage. He teaches when asked and is on facebook but he does not show his mastery....only when the would be students can sense it and ask him does he reveal himself.

Same Master?

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Still thoughts keep appearing in my head whether I like it or not. Even while meditating...

 

Did you start meditating recently? Eyes open or closed?

If you are a beginner like me you might want to consider to start with standing meditation with eyes open - Zhan Zhuang. If you practice indoors it helps to stand facing a window looking outside. Don't worry if you're not "meditating" while you are standing, just relax and stand. After a couple of months you'll notice your mind is a lot more quieter and not only when standing. This is a natural process and there's no need to think about it, just practice.

You are in the Netherlands right? I think Peter den Dekker teaches in Amsterdam. He is an inner door student of Master Lam Kam Chuen and a TCM Dr.

Master Lam Kam Chuen's books

Peter den Dekker book

1 hour ago, dawei said:

 

We have to remember, Tao is an idea or thought or a black box for  how things move.  It is not a thing.  So when Laozi put it together with 'things', it is more a cosmological sequence, IMO.  

 

So, Tao follows nothing; all follows, or all is a description of how Tao represents all things.   This DDJ25 is incredibly difficult to truly translate as the four lines are completely parallel but the last line is to be understood differently from the previous three, unless there can be a parallel translation.

 

The word here 'follows' is fa, which means law but maybe better meant as a pattern, or follows. 

 

I commented here:

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/17504-ttc-study-chapter-25-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?do=findComment&comment=245597

 

But I later said I really like how Dusty treated the lines:

 

https://www.thedaobums.com/topic/17504-ttc-study-chapter-25-of-the-tao-teh-ching/?do=findComment&comment=589579

 

 

Thank you.

I'll check those links.

On 11/29/2018 at 7:43 PM, wandelaar said:

1) Does Tao simply consists of the Laws of Nature?

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

1) No, it makes the laws of nature possible

1 hour ago, dawei said:

1. Dao is akin to emptiness.   An empty mental concept of a non-mental state.   Laws of nature are a part of dualistic mindset.  The two are separate till they merge as One non-separation. 

Man follows the earth.
Earth follows heaven.
Heaven follows the Tao.
Tao follows what is natural.

I understood Tao follows what is natural as Tao follows Nature. Is this interpretation incorrect?

38 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

This is similar to keeping "time" with your hands. Try keeping a steady beat with your left hand while the right hand does a syncopated rhythm. No problem. Now try reversing that - the right hand can not keep a steady beat.

I've just tried this and it can be done with the right hand, it actually seems easier than left. Have you tried it?

41 minutes ago, silent thunder said:

If only I could as readily close my ears and stop the input of sound for but a moment of true silence, in which to saturate...

 

You might want to check out if there's any anechoic chamber near you that you can visit:

You would think that a place so quiet would also be peaceful. But for those who spend any time in there, it is far from the case. Gopal often gives visitors to Microsoft a tour of the audio laboratories, which includes a trip inside the anechoic chamber – and most find the experience very uncomfortable. “Some people want out within a few seconds,” he confides. “They say they just can’t be in there. It unsettles almost everybody. They can hear people breathing on the other side of the room and hear stomachs gurgling. A small number of people feel dizzy.”

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20170526-inside-the-quietest-place-on-earth