Desmonddf

On 04/10/2019 at 5:02 PM, Nungali said:

Man has not created any concepts ? 

 

Indeed. Concepts predate humans. We have a form of accessing them (the mind), but the mind is unable of creation - only immitation.

 

If you go beyond phylosophy and enter neurology, it is quite simple - thoughts are in essence sequences of neurological bioactivations. Humans have not invented those - we just go through some of them that create this illusion of creation.

 

On 04/10/2019 at 5:02 PM, Nungali said:

As the magician advances (or actually, as the practitioner becomes a magician ) the sphere is expanded ( to include the 'outside' with the 'inside' ) and 'opposing' forces are bought together and balanced. 

 

Yeeeeah.... that collapses once we near the end of the Mind. There is no banishing or summoning, there is no duality, indeed.

 

However, non-duality doesn't mean that everything is "the same" and "one". "One" and being "the same" ARE also duality. There is no "same" without "different".

At the point of non-duality, there is no "magician is god". There is no difference, but there is also no similarity between man and god. It isn't dual. There is no 'is' but there is no 'it's not'.

 

 

 

On 04/10/2019 at 5:02 PM, Nungali said:

I think if anyone ignores the 'magic is psychology thing' nowadays  the are in for Trouble ! 

 

I would rather ignore the "magic is psychology" and go for the "magic includes working with your mind" than giving any credit to psychology in this regard.

 

So, go on and notice the existence of the microcosm. That's indeed VERY important. As well as all of the "let's not go psychotic here" processess.

 

I like buddhism in order to dwelve into these sands, but I do have some instruction on the theme of psychology and I do admit it has been usefull here and there.

 

But don't try to limit or explain magic through psychology. That doesn't work and even cuts off a VERY important part of magic, which is the hability to create physical change in the world around us - be with incantations, rituals or other things. And I'm not talking about syncronicity.

I'm talking first about "parlot tricks" like liting a candle with your thoughts and then bigger stuff, like creating matter from the void.

 

I'll call myself a magician once I'm able to "cast fireball". Before that I'm not even an apprentice (and some spirits I've known, as well as my theurgic works, have more than once shown me that "casting fireball" is WAY bellow the paygrade for what could be called a true magician).

 

1800's' inspiring mages convinced themselves that the "spirit is more important than power!". They were able to do some of the "parlort tricks" above. 

 

And then the New Age groups convinced themselves that "the mind is the true place of magic! It is all a metaphor!". And they can barely sit on full lotus.

 

Why?

 

Well, because that's self-delusion.

 

"Oh, but the spirit, the spiritual development is the true goal! We should not seek physical effects!"

 

Bullshit. We should avoid seeking ANYTHING. And that INCLUDES spiritual enlightment and development. If you're looking for spiritual development, that means you're cutting short your own chances of spiritualy developing, since you need to stop "doing" things and "seeking" things in order to enter non-action, and only through non-action can you truly develop your spirit past the level of consciousness associated with the Ego.

 

And once you do that with a certain level of mastery, physical effects WILL start happening around you.

 

Magic cannot ignore reality, be it the shared mental reality or the physical plane. It becomes flawed, mutilated and incapable of growing past its most embryonic states.

 

"You'll become a god" but then you're unable to make a pen levitate.... man, you're not a god. You're someone who has been deluding yourself with the idea of being a god but only in your own mind - unable to exist outside of yourself. That's closing up your own personality inside of yourself and avoiding the world.

A personality disorder, not spiritual development! Even because this will make it so you'll become increasingly delusional and self-destructive due to this delusional state worsening...

 

On 04/10/2019 at 5:02 PM, Nungali said:

Now they have been integrated ... some of them.

 

Well, there's always this possibility, that those beings are but a part of yourself.

 

That's why we test them.

 

One of the things me and my friends do, we being mediuns, is to ask the spirits to relay messages to one another and later on see if they were correctly given.

 

We also listen to the spirit talking to one of us and, without the person telling us what the spirit told her, tell her what the spirit said and she will either confirm or deny. Then it will be my turn (meaning the spirit will say something to me and the others must tell me what it said to me).

 

And so on.

 

That gives me some insurance on their objective existence. That and all the shared dreams with other people, astral projections, "coincidences", etc, etc.

 

Everyday I get closer to the point where even the most persisting of my rationalizations will be unable to explain what happens to me and tries to convince me that they are but a part of my mind.

 

Then I'll let myself rest and take a good breather. Until then, I'm always looking at one side and then the other - is this part of my mind? Or am I trying to delude myself in order to avoid the "terrible truth" of there existing something beyond the physical?

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

The concept of 'God'  is a man made invention  and Man has developed according to his belief in his invention and  the concept of God, in turn, has been developed and refined by man .

 

I see. We indeed have very different views on the subject. I do not think man has created anything, much less Concepts. Indeed, as far as I've reached in my operations, concepts are older and more eternal than flesh-and-bones humans.

 

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

and that is NOT the type of relationship to have with your angels spirits and demons .

 

Yep. Very different. I'm not dealing with "my" angels, demons and spirits. I'm dealing with demons, angels and spirits as beings outside of my own.

Not images on my psyche, not figures of language. Real and literal things. Capable of generating physical changes in matter, including.  I suppose you're on that "magic is psychology" thing.

6 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

There we differ . 

 

Careful with the tricks of pride. People want to be gods without knowing what that means, only for the feeling of grandeur. "I can be god of myself!" is mostly delusion. There's no difference between oneself and the whole, so how can you be god of yourself without being of the whole? How can you be master of your own destiny without being master of destiny itself? Be master of your relationships without being master of relationships?

 

Unfortunately, that's how it is - or at least as much as I've discovered. One cannot be god of themselves without being god itself.

4 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Personally I have never had that problem .

 

Because the Magician's  voice IS the 'voice of the Lord '.  (in a 'way' ) .

 

And you cant be a Lord (or a King )  unless you can  wear the Crown and wield the Sword properly.  And you cant do that until you have mastered the other 'weapons' .

 

And the crown (kether)  comes after  traversing all the other paths ( a weapon for each path )

 

 Also -IME -  most people that have trouble in this area do not realise  or use 'The Contract' correctly .   Awareness of that (and its terms) seems essential for happy, good and healthy relationships .

 

More like the magician knows how to beg for the Lord inside of it to order the angels around.

 

No one who isn't omniscient,potent and etc is capable of being like "the lord". We just have sparks of divinity inside of us, and a magician learns of their existence and how to reach them.

 

The Tree of Life's symbolism is interesting, but it's still a symbolism. The whole idea is still something of the mental plane. Getting to be like "the lord" requires for one to go beyond that, and at a very basal level indeed.

 

For instance, I've been crowned by the Angels on my latest Theurgic experience. They've shown me how to "speak with the voice of the Lord" and how to "Speak the Language of Angels".

What did I found out?

 

That "I" (ego) can't do jack shit. There's "something" inside me (small pieces of what I call "myself" but DEFINETELY aren't under my control, lol) that have indeed become divine and have the power to do that kind of stuff. I can even feel when they do it.

 

But "I" ? This little ego here?

 

I can at most beg the pieces of divinity inside of me to do it. It's simply impossible to "speak the language of angels" or "command with the voice of the Lord" without BEING "the Lord", and that means "being like god" in a macroscopic sense. 

 

So, omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. No abstractly. Literaly.

I mean, demons.... they are usually sly, evil and want to fuck you up.

 

But as long as you're not into their bad side or they actually have reasons to befriend you (being gentle and polite with them is always a good reason for most of them), they'll even become nice friends who will help you with what you want.

 

Then, worst case scenario, they will toss you into whatever hell they know of.

 

Angels?

 

Those guys will actually TEST you. One of the Seraphim actually injected Pride onto my soul in hopes for me to become prideful enough to go against it (yes, a mortal going against a Seraphim... that's the kind of pride it was injecting me with), which would them allow it to destroy me completly.

 

I was lucky to only have contacted this being while being protected by others. Otherwise I would have been royaly screwd.

 

And they won't stop, and they won't listen. Unless you speak with "the voice of the Lord", they won't even look at what you want. They will just do whatever they have been commanded and/or want to do.

 

I mean, demons... if you know a few Names of God and how to correctly pronunce them, they will obey. But angels? They will get pissed at you for using the lord's name in vain, lol.

 

Really nice people. Really powerful. Powerhouses, even.

 

But buttfuck, they can pack a punch in your guts.

 

Hell would be light torment if you get on an Angel's bad side. They can do WAY worse than keep you in eternal damnation - and that's not to say that unless you become able to speak with the "Voice of the Lord" while staying into whatever pit of misfortune they throw you in, it will indeed be "Eternal" as in "until this whole universe ceases existing".

17 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

It helps to have a 'communications keyboard '  ;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

... and a good voice ;

 

"  Adagita vau-pa-ahe zodonugonu fa-a-ipe salada! "

 

(  then they will know what you are talking about . )

 

Enochians.... so much power, so little angelic!

 

I'm working with the classical angelic hostes at this moment. I've gone through the Querubin and Seraphim, and now I'm suffering like a dog in the hands of the Malachin.

Seriously, these guys are worst than demons.

Way worse (I would know - since I've befriended a couple of them in the past).

9 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

Yeah I wonder if my higher self broke my computer a year ago by making me careless.

At the time I was doing fruitless exercises to see if they impacted some issue with my hip.

When what was really needed was someone actually forcing some of the joints in place.

So when my computer died from my carelessness I was forced to stop the useless standing meditation.

Or at least I had to stop the journaling of it on this site, the rest came to a halt not long after.

 

It seems I need to pay more attention to Hod and Geburah then I guess.

 

I have read a bit more on them now including Netzach.

I think I understand about right where I need to relegate certain Jungian principles to make the puzzle unravel now.

Of course I will probably discover new layers all the time on this,

but to really be able to use a system, one need to set it in context with the rest of one's knowledge,

else it just becomes this weird anomaly that don't contribute anything useful at all.

 

I'm unsure how high my conscious control actually stretch up into the tree though.

I need to sit down and ponder it in relation to familiar landmarks.

 

I'm not the kind of guy who wants to be as high as possible in something for the sake of it.

Rather I view this as a map, I can either try to find my actual location,

or I can find a map of where I want to be, and ignore the fact that I'm not on that map myself.

With a map that includes where I'm at, I have can actually navigate the terrain,

but with an ideal map of somewhere else, I'm merely allowed to dream.

 

Very good atitude. Good luck

2 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

Yes, but if one does what they want ... then things magically fall into place, doors open opportunity drops in your lap .

 

OR  like what my exasperated lawyer said to me about our court case ;  " I cant believe this ... they trow you into a river and you stumble and trip across a path of stepping stones unseen under the surface and land collapsed on the other side, on  a silk pillow with a cocktail in your hand  .... again !  ' 

 

 

 

I'd say, if they do what they "Want", not "want"

 

Ego has these problems. I've run from using my True Will right before the car got busted. And then it stoped working. I just had something I had to do before going to do what I wanted to do.

 

Manifesting your True Will all moments of your life is though shit.

 

 

Edit: Oh, you were talking about the angels. Indeed, they do

Those boys don't give a fuck about stuff. They are the ones who make the universe, the ones putting the pieces in place. If they want (actually, if they are "commanded by the Lord" which can be interpreted by "commanded by the divine which exist in yourself", but also as "the divine creator of the universe" (both are the same, really) they just change it.

 

Karma?

 

They are the ones who made it.

 

Destiny?

They are the ones putting it in place.

 

Anything at all?

 

They're the workers making it happen.

 

If they are commanded, things just change. Simply as that.

 

Of course, dealing with this level of reality can be a bitch. As a friend of mine once said: "If you want to fuck someone up, give them angels to talk to. Demons won't break them into pieces like Angels will." And indeed, the amount of suffering one of them can inflict on people is off the charts. They can literally send you to hell and back if they want to. Or even toss you out from reality into the Void.

Scary stuff.

 

2 hours ago, Integrated said:

@Desmonddf

I've redrawn one of my charts to reflect your Geburah protest.

In some ways I can see it making more sense.

I've put it over the old one for now,

and I will just have to see if things fall in place more smoothly now.

 

To restate from my new point of view:

 

I have control up to Tifereth from this perspective, Geburah I hate like the plague,

and is no small part why I fly off the handle in certain situations.

Or just get totally shut down.

 

Hmm if this perspective holds,

I have a new tool to measure where I stand in relation to certain pesky Jungian problems.

Oh well time will tell.

 

The tree can be interpreted in a myriad of ways, mostly like a caledoscope. It is an structure that mirrors itself on many levels.

 

If you're dealing with yourself, then that's ego. You're dealing with your psyche, and all of that can be understood as a single Tree of Life, yes.

 

More especifically, it is a way of accessing Hod in order to comprehend the Ego (which would be Tipheret on a Tree that represents your own image of yourself and how you work on a mental level).

 

But if you go to the more esoteric practices, such as invocation or evocation, then you'll see things like the Names of God or the Archangels of each Sephirot will go way beyond that

 

Of course, you CAN use those as many people have started to use goetia and say they are all archetypes or whatnot. I still haven't seen an archetype capable of destroying physical things like the contact with the Archangels has done with my life. My car is busted, things just stop working and break when I start doing something the Angels forbid me to.

34 minutes ago, Integrated said:

 

I can see how that cutting off would work yeah.

Being cast out from all grace in a way.

Meaning that all that is left is decay, endings and inability to be balanced.

Then collapsing down into illusion, appearances and inability to change.

 

It somehow seems that the most danger is on either end of the spectrum,

as long as one is pushing past Tifereth, one is negotiating with the higher self,

but if one abandons this negotiation, the self will grow indifferent.

At some point right before Kether, one will have intruded way beyond what the ego can naturally handle,

and it is my guess that the stability of Tifereth is at stake,

as if the beauty of the will must be traded away to cross the abyss.

And in doing so, the whole house of cards collapses, as one immediately rebounds into Malkhuth,

and one basically have to build up again from scratch, as the new will/beauty demands a different tribute.

As for the self, I'm unsure how it would view such an inner trade, if it would be amused, disgusted or indifferent.

 

*Of course this trade implies a death of the ego, so I guess that is the price of touching Kether,

but not only that, but a loss of will.

 

 

The Higher Self only exists in Geburah

After Geburah you'll have some higher things. The Ego itself might die at any moment, even when talking with the Higher Self, but as long as it still has something to do on earth, it will just regroup itself.

"Solve et Coagula". You'll reach the heavens once you solve your ego, but then you'll have to coagulate a new one if you want to be here.

 

I sincerely know nothing from Chesed and above. Can't say anything about it

On 27/09/2019 at 12:34 AM, Integrated said:

 

Yeah but if they only look as they follow the flow, they do have a real stake.

Hence why it is so hard to judge people on the surface, cause it is hard to know what is actually the case.

 

I doubt that there really are people with "no soul", but that in turn comes from what I view as that word.

I'm not sure if the higher self is the soul for me, I think the higher self transcend the soul.

Which is blasphemy for some people, to view the soul as not the highest inner principle.

But I really do view the soul as something that is very reflective of our flawed nature,

it sort of is the broken glass shards on the floor that necessitates the quick-fix we call ego.

 

 

We obsess over it in the same way as someone who wants to find glue and put it all together.

Which is sort of impossible when there is tons of tiny fragments,

and even the larger fragments are so many that it becomes this crazy difficult puzzle.

 

Well, as you said, it has to do with what you call the "soul". If you're going with the definitions Crowley and Blavatsky settled, then there are cases in which the Higher Self "cuts" (not permanently in this world we live, but it works in others) the connection with the Ego and waits for it to die off.

 

My own Higher Self tried to do it, with some serious consequences for my ego in past and on this life as well. It is as if it stopped caring and looking into what the Ego is, effectively looking as if it was detached and had cut off the ego from itself. It seems like it used to work in places others than this planet, in which the ego would simply die off a little after it was cut (especialy in Sitra Achra), but it doesn't work here.

 

The problem is just that the ego, in this world, keeps on living even without the continuous presence of the Higher Self feeding energy and "existence" for it. Sometimes it even manages to get a body through reincarnation, and then we call those "people without souls" (just how I was before my current wife's Higher Self managed to get my own's attention... long story).

 

Blavatsky had a VERY negative view on this theme, but she was just very frustrated in many aspects of life - so that appears on all her works.

 

 

On 27/09/2019 at 12:22 AM, Integrated said:

 

Makes sense, the ego is too limited to be able to deal fully with any of the sefirots.

Isn't that what the number of the beast is about anyway?

The ego can just accept three of the sixes (as in four elements), hence why mans number is 666.

So the ego can only handle 3/4 of Tipheret, yet that is still pretty beautiful and powerful.

As for the higher self, it will carry on its mysterious stuff regardless of what the ego can handle.

I do think however, that the more the ego can handle, the more gracefully it can follow along with the higher self.

 

Turning this

 

 

into this sort of

 

 

Something of the like, yes. That's mostly a view on the LHP side of the tree, but you can also access other things if you go through other paths. Remember, there are at least three paths the ego can use to access Tipheret (not mentioning the hidden paths) - through reason (Hod - Tipheret), through self-knowledge and initiation (Netzach-Tipheret) and through spiritual contact and spiritual ecstasy (Yesod-Tipheret).

The first has to do, in the way of the initiates who practice yoga, with Jana Yoga. The second as well Jana, but less sitting and reading the Vedas and more detaching yourself from the world, finding a guru and being initiated into forms of self-improvement and knowledge.

 

The third has to do with Bakti Yoga. The first step on Bakti has to do with getting to Yesod (obedience and purity of thought/emotion) and the second step with direct connection to the divine (ecstasy).

23 hours ago, waterdrop said:

what is this form of qi called ? 

 

Zheng Qi (correct Qi).

4 hours ago, Integrated said:

But we can't make everything beautiful, because we live in a world of opposites.

So to embrace one thing, then one automatically rejects another.

 

I'd say it's like that for the Ego, but the Higher Self doesn't really see it that way. We call tipheret "beauty", but that's because it is the closer we can get of a description. Once we reach tipheret, everything seems to become "beautiful" - there's no more uglyness or opposition. Everything is as one, perfect and complete.

3 hours ago, Integrated said:

 

I'd call that being identified with ones persona.

To just go with the flow with no real stake other than physical and social survival.

 

If I would go as far as saying these people don't have any soul?

I'm unsure, I've never thought about it like that.

 

But right now I think that is a misnomer, though I fully feel the frustration of dealing with such people.

 

Kinda. But not exactly. The Higher Self isn't related to one's ego or inner personas. Someone who looks like they're just following the flow might have a very active Higher Self and someone who looks like they're very edgy and original can be just following their own flows.

 

It boils down to the influences they're on.

On 13/07/2019 at 1:13 AM, Tryingtodobetter said:

I've thought about suicide time and time again, occasionally throughout the years and as of late I really see no point in continuing being present on this plane. I had an experience today where I really questioned my existence again, in depth. My life has no value, no meaning, no purpose. I have no substantial savings, no transportation, no relationship, no true social circle, no home of my own, no semblance of true community- really nothing of worth using a societal metric or even using a "spiritual" one. I simply have no worth or purpose. I am very tired. I had things I would've liked to accomplish, though now it's as if the larger part of those desires have been whittled down by time and things unseen, inwardly and outwardly. I have lived far too long. This world holds nothing for me and the inverse is probably true as well.

 

I want to commit suicide and I would like to know the actual repercussions. I dont want to be told to "hang in there". My life is over. I just want to know where my destination is once I release myself from my mortal shell. I figured this forum would be one of the spaces visited by someone with a genuine answer to this question.

 

Close your eyes and let your imagination build a place in front of you. Not an idilic or hellish place, just let your feelings create an image of what they represent. Without a body, your mind will be the main creator of your existence and experiences. This place you've seen is probably where you'll go if you die today - except you probably will have a mangled astral body due to the shock and trauma of physical suicide.

4 hours ago, dwai said:

If any of you have watched Battlestar Galactica, the primary antagonists in that show are the human-cybernetic hybrids called Cylons. There were 12 models and of these 8 were cloned to build up the humanoid cylon population.

 

Over the years I’ve noticed that there exist certain archetypical human characteristics too. Certain basic “patterns” keep repeating themselves again and again, across the so-called ethnic and racial boundaries. A certain “base” pattern is recognizable at a subconscious level (usually), and that’s why when, sometimes, you meet a definitive stranger, you get the feeling you’ve known them somehow. There is just enough similarity in the way this stranger looks and behaves that your mind does a sort of “mapping” with a person you know from before.

 

I wonder why? Any theories about this?

 

I guess we have some structures in our brains which are common to all humans (and to most mammals in this aspect). This similarity is what will make you think a chimpanzee, for instance, is "almost human".

 

The same applies (in reverse) to those with neurologic conditions. Some you'll just see as "inhuman" because they lack these structures or have had some of them damaged in some way.

 

In TCM terms, a Human Soul is a Human Soul. It has an intrinsic "human" quality to it, being in the center between the Heavens and Earth and balanced between both.

Little note: All of the above mentioned are valid only for an already stablished case of bipolarity. The body has its reserves and ways of self-repair, so if you just use your mind too much one day, usually the Liver will exert dominance over it and you'll stop the process before getting to the point of feeling anxious. And even if you do feel anxious, that might not generate Heart fire (if your Heart Xue and Yin are in a good state). And even if you do have Heart Fire, this might be controled by the Kidney Qi/Yin once it starts to circulate through your organs.

 

However, if you have already damaged these organs' Yang, Qi (or worse, Yin), then the stablishment of the cycle above is very likely. It's a vicious cycle of euphoria -> depression -> euphoria-  ...

 

In the end you'll eventually come to a point where you won't be able to recover from depression, and will remain in a catatonic state for a very long time.

In terms of TCM, clinical depression would be an inbalance of multiple Souls, depending on which are the characteristics of said depression.

 

For instance, depression which makes you apatic (with apparently no sadness) and incapable of basic living skills (such as getting out of bed) would be related to the Heart (Shen), Lungs (Po) and Kidney (Zhi) souls.

All forms of suicide would be related to the Heart soul and Liver (Hun) soul.

 

Excessive thoughts and anxiety which lead to depression (mood variations), however, would be related to the Heart, Spleen, Liver and Kidney souls disbalanced on a system which works more or less like this:

 

Stirred Spleen Soul ---> Uncontrolable thoughts ----> Stirrs the Liver Soul ----> Uncontrolable thoughts with bodily signs of anxiety ---> Heart Fire ---> Reality Displacement signs (begining of euphoria) ---> Kidney Soul enters in action, stirrs the Kidney Qi and "drowns" the body with kidney Qi ---> instaled Euphoria (feeling of having lots of energy to do lots of things).

 

Euphoria ---> Kidney Soul exerts overdominance over the Kidney Qi ---> Kidney Qi deficiency (usually Kidney Yang) ---> Kidney Soul loses control over Kidney Qi ---> Heart Fire (ending of euphoria) ---> Heart Yin deficiency (reality displacement, catatonic state) ---> Liver Soul loses control over Liver Qi (prostation) ---> Spleen Soul loses its grounding on Spleen Yang (catatonic state).

 

Spleen Soul "cools down" with time ----> End of catatonic state ---> Liver Qi reestablished (prostation starts to wane away) ---> Heart Soul might or might not ground itself on Heart's Qi-Xue again (depending on the level of damage to the Heart Yin) ---> Kidney Soul might or might not ground itself on Kidney Yang again (depending on the level of damage to the Kidney Yin).

 

If the Liver, Heart and/or Kidney souls find themselves unable to ground back on the respective organs' Yang, that will generate fire which will in term eventually reach the Heart and/or Liver. This Heart and/or Liver fire will then stirr the Spleen Soul, and the euphoria process will start anew.

 

It all starts with thinking too much. In a highly mind-overexerting society, bipolarity is to be expected due to the excess of use of the analitical and logical mind (Spleen Soul). I would say it is almost inevitable

On 14/09/2019 at 2:47 PM, Gilgamesh said:

I do know that it's ideally paired with a lunar practice that he teaches

 

I suppose this would be the complementary Yin technique needed to balance things out.

Yes, acupuncture would help.

 

However, do notice that you'll need to work emotional problems and that might lead to carthasys.

On 06/09/2019 at 6:12 PM, squashedface said:

Dare I ask for further details on this practice? Is it similar to the White Skeleton Visualisation?

 

Not exactly. I'll give you more details in case I'm permited.

 

On 06/09/2019 at 6:12 PM, squashedface said:

I have tried to do this, but I failed miserably due to the twists and blockages making it seem like I was trying to find Mr Messy's meridians. 

 

 

hahaha. Let's go into it later then

On 06/09/2019 at 12:45 PM, waterdrop said:

Thanks  -  can you talk more about post-heaven jing VS qi  

Im not sure what to ask about it actually  i just want to hear more info about it the more people add the better -  but just to give some ideas :

(  how is post jing created ?  can we increase its amount by some actions ?   should we turn all post heavenly jing to qi  (unless we want to concive a baby?) ?  how do we turn post heavenly jing to qi  etc  etc etc )

 

When we eat and drink, our stomach separates the energetic elements of the food and the energetic parts go to the splenn-pancreas to be transformed.

 

There they are turned into Gu Qi, the "Qi of the Grains". Parts of energy and matter which cannot be turned into Gu Qi descend into the small intestine and go through another round of separations and purifications in order to help to create material things in our body, such as blood and bodly liquids (tears, sweat, the liquid inside  your joints, spinal fluid, etc).

 

The Gu Qi rises from the Spleen-Pancreas and gets to the chest area. There your lungs are constantly bringing in Qi from the air (Xin Qi). The Qi from the air which combines with Gu Qi at the level of your chest becomes either Zhong Qi - chest Qi - or goes to the heart and becomes spiritual blood - Xue.

 

The part of the Air Qi which brings the Food Qi all the way down to the Kidneys is "cooked" by the Yuan Qi which is produced by the Pre-Heaven Jing and becomes Zheng Qi (true Qi).

Zheng Qi is almost instantaniously transformed into Wei Qi (defense Qi) and Ying Qi (nourishment Qi).

 

Wei Qi warms the body and goes to the surface, creating a protective layer around your body. It is related to the immune system.

 

Ying Qi sinks into the blood by means of the spiritual blood (Xue), which is capable of holding it.

 

It travels through all of your veins and arteries and through all of your organs. It gets transformed in the process, being constantly refined and consumed. The organs, muscles and etc use the Ying Qi and Xue to nourish themselves, and in the process separate the most energetic and pure parts of it from the impure parts.

 

The impure parts are released through the intestines (small and large), gal bladder and bladder. The purer parts get constantly cooled down by the organs and transformed. Eventually it reaches the Governor Vessel and, at this point, it has been so tempered and refined it becomes Post-Heaven Jing.

 

That is to say, it has "degraded" in terms of materiality - it has become more material than Zheng Qi/Ying Qi - but it is so pure, it can be used by the body at any moments in the same form we use Pre-Heaven Jing.

 

It easily transforms into energy for your body, into any form of organ energy or even into Qi or Shen in case needed. It's just that pure and flexible of an energy.

 

That's how it is created.

 

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can we increase its amount by some actions ?

 

Eat well, sleep well, exercise well, work well, live well. The less damage you generate in your organs, body, mind and energy in general the less Ying Qi will have to be consumed to repair them and more will turn into Post-Heaven Jing.

 

On 06/09/2019 at 12:45 PM, waterdrop said:

should we turn all post heavenly jing to qi 

 

No. It is a reserve your body will use when it needs. For instance, if you need to expend too much time without eat (five or six hours) and so on.

 

It is also the reserves your body has in case you get sick and your Wei Qi gets depleted... and so on.

 

So you should transform just a little bit of it, and into the correct form of Qi - the purest form. It is usefull because it is so pure and flexible, so it can be used to create the most pure form of Qi as well.

 

On 06/09/2019 at 12:45 PM, waterdrop said:

how do we turn post heavenly jing to qi

 

I've had a very intensive day today, so I might be unable to give you very detailed instructions.

 

However, certain bodily movements, meditations and other forms of Neidan are used to do that. The "creation" (refinement) and consolidation of your Dan Tien is also based in that.

On 04/09/2019 at 5:06 PM, waterdrop said:

What is the difference between jing and qi ?

im asking cause im confused a bit about it  -  i used to hear that jing is something you have from birth and you should try to preserve it and when you get old you are slowly loosing jing 

yet recently i asked here how to not get wet dreams (if i dont want to have sex or masturbate)  and got an advice to turn jing to qi (if someone wants to add an explanation how i do that - can be nice)   ....   so by what i heared in the past it seems like a bad idea to turn jing into qi ... and if anything it should be the other way around ...

would love to hear whatever info people can add on the subject of jing vs qi

 

The language is quite complex in this idea.

 

The general idea is that the Dao derived the Yin and Yang, and then their interactions created Qi (movement, substance). From those came the Heaven, Earth and Primordial energies...

And then eventually all things in the universe.

 

The Qi there mentioned isn't the Qi as in QiGong or the Qi used in acupuncture. It is Qi in the sense of "movement", "energy", "substance" (yes, all forms of substance are Qi in this idea, but that's on a very high level of existence), etc.

 

Now comes the complex part. Once we go into this kind of language, the terms start to be used as scales of measurement, not literal "things".

 

So Yin and Yang aren't "things", but scales of measurement. They are reference points towards things (Qi) gravitates in a cycle, and which, by their time, create other mental things which eventually create the universe (something on the lines of "the universe comes from the mind").

 

However, there's this idea that the human body itself is a "small universe", so we divide all of the energies and matter in this body into various forms of energy according to the affinity this energy have.

 

Therefore, you'll have the more Yin aspects of the body, like the bone marrow, the bones, the tissues, the organs and the physical blood... and the energetic ones, like the Jing, Qi, Xue, Shen, etc.

 

What we have to remember is that all of the substances are understood as "Qi", but that this "Qi" is further divided into other forms of "Qi" which receive each their own name.

 

So, what practioners use is usually either Wei Qi or Ying Qi. This is a form of Qi which is generated in the body and which is called "Qi" because it is in the middle of the way from Jing to Shen, which also can be considered to be "forms of Qi" (in terms of being energy) but are respectively more Yin and more Yang than Zheng Qi or Xin Qi.

 

So, the human body is a microcosm, and the Energy in this body is itself a microcosm as well. So in the physical aspects, the Hands are the most Yang parts of the body (because they go higher than any other parts) and the Feet are the most Yin part (because they are lower than other parts).

 

The Jing is the most Yin part of the Energies in the body, while Shen is the most Yang part.

 

And, what you know, the meridians which connect to both Jing and Shen are related to the feet and hands.

Also, the places where those two are stored in the body (Jing in the Kidneys and Shen in the Heart) are also in an Yin-Yang relation to each other, the Kidneys being the most Yin of the organs and the Heart the most Yang of them.

 

These kinds of correlations are the very basys of all of the daoist thought - that things have properties that correlate between themselves and that things of the "same kind" tend to group togheter.

 

So Jing is the most Yin part of the whole body's energy, and it is also the one that most closely resonates with the physical body... and so on like this.

 

Now, let's talk about Jing and Qi.

 

Knowing that both are Qi in the idea of being both "energy", we call Jing the most Yin of these energies and Qi the middle-of-the-path ones.

 

The Jing is extremely close to the Physical Body, and it coordinates all kinds of transformations and physiological processess in the body - such as development, aging and so on.

 

Qi is more subtle, and it is the energy which, for instance, makes it so your cells produce heat and keep you warm.

 

But Jing can also be separated acording to its origin. Everyone has Jing ever since we are conceived, but due to how our bodies are structured, it is stored in a place we can never access (easily at least) after birth.

So the Jing produced after birth is stored in other places.

 

If the Jing produced during our mothers' pregnancy ends, all life ends as well - because it is important for our own existence and crucial in the transformations and maintenances the body makes on itself.

 

This Jing is called "Pre-Heaven Jing", and learning how to access the place it is stored in and then replenishing it is the supposed way people could live forever - by becoming younger again and never aging, since the aging process comes from depletion of this Pre-Heaven Jing.

As the Post-Heaven Jing, it is constantly produced in our bodies and it is used as an "energetic reserve" of sorts, which can then be used if we ever need it (we usually do every day).

 

This Post-Heaven Jing can be accessed with relative ease and then turned into Qi, which is the more subtle energy I've talked about before - and which will nourish your body and help it to stay healthy.

 

This is the idea behind "turning Jing into Qi".

4 hours ago, anshino23 said:

They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part

 

Not exactly. What you described as Jing - Qi - Shen is one of the many forms of doing it, but there are other forms and this idea of "forget everything and become enlightened" is mostly a perversion of old teachings.

 

The idea is either to conform the Yang through the Yin or the Yin through the Yang.

 

By working from "bellow to above" you'll be able to make it so your body changes your mind and gets you closer to the Dao.

 

By working from "above to bellow" you'll make it so your mind changes your body and gets you closer to the Dao as well.

 

The ideal training, in my view at least, is to do BOTH things at the same time. Doing only one of them has great chances of making you spend years of training only to end up in poor health and maybe even insanity, or simply entering a state of, indeed, delusion.

 

In my personal practice I'm combining both perspectives and that has been giving wonderful results. What I need to change in my mind I change through the body, and what I need to change in my body I change through the mind.

 

This means, for instance, that if I want to become thiner, then I will look into what in my mind makes me fat. Seeing that, I will look to what I can do in my body in order to change my mind. If I still feel blockages in doing so, then I will look into my mind to look for the reason for that as well.

 

In the end I usually reach a point in which merely seeing something inside my mind or doing very few moves with my body (or even TCM and similar things) is already enough to grant me transformation in both body and mind. Balance is the key.

 

As for speed of transformation, I've managed to lose around 30kg ( around 70 pounds) in the last 2 years, while also increasing my lean mass and without losing strenght (even increasing it to a certain degree). I've also been able to estabilize my mood variations and start a family. Not to mention a series other things.

 

My energetic workings are being slowly cleaned and explained by a guide spirit and I'm becoming able to do a little bit of neidan every day, even though not following a especific routine - the spirit comes, teaches me about what I'm doing wrong, and then how to solve that.

I've gained a few skills in that, and I believe I'll be able to start a conscious neidan practice (based on looking for the destination and adapting myself in order to reach it instead of following certain formulas) very soon.

Theoretically a physical/corporeal teacher should give you this kind of treatment, teaching you not techniques but what you need in the moment to reach a certain step in order to get to the point where you can do the techniques by yourself while knowing what you're doing - only then teaching you the techniques.*

 

*If that's even needed