Netero
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Inspired by the now closed SoTG thread, I have had some thoughts in regards to the social dynamics of spiritual groups. I will refrain from naming names and specifying my own involvement with similar groups. I would like to encourage other posters to do so as well, encouraging to speak in generalities and not specifics. The thread was closed in order to avoid yet another TDB shitstorm, which is understandable, but I do find this subject matter to be important. We are not outing anyone in particular, but having a discussion in regards to social dynamics that are innate in our nature.
I will start this discussion from a quote by Draja Mickaharic, who wrote his books in his late 90's/ early 100's. You can substitute the word "magic" for "mysticism". I am copying the quote from a PDF file, so apologies for the mismatch in the font. (EDIT: changed the font, so it should be more readable)
QuoteThe study of magic is a continual, ongoing, and thoroughly fascinating affair. In one sense, magic means different things to everyone who studies the subject, as there are always differences in what each student is able to learn, even when they are studying with the same teacher. In the beginning of the study when all of the students are in the same class, striving to master the same basic material and exercises, there is a sense of community and there is a sense of individual uniqueness that I do not believe is matched in any other field of study.
As with many other groupings of people, some people come to the study of magic in an attempt to find a group of like minded people to associate with. They are looking, whether they know it or not, for a social support group, one that will give them attention and at least a minimum amount of social affection, the necessary to all humans sense of belonging. As this is precisely the kind of thing that a real magical study group must discourage to be successful, these people are often disappointed, so they turn from the group after a few months or a year's membership.
In those cases where the people do not leave of their own accord, the instructor must find some way to discourage them, driving them away as it were. Of course, this is usually accomplished in such a way that the person leaving is very sure that they escaped the clutches of the foul beast heading the group by the very skin of their teeth. Thus, it comes about that serious magical groups, those that have no interest at all in being a social support group, quickly develop a rather negative reputation.
On the other hand, those groups which provide the social Contact and support, personal attention, and the group affection,
that their members require, as well as assuring the members that they have attained a particularly marvelous place in the universe through their membership in the group, tend to grow large and be well thought of, although they actually accomplish very little.
One of my own early teachers was disdainful of magical groups, because he said that any group with a good reputation was not worth belonging to, while any group with a bad reputation probably was either directly evil or a very serious group indeed. He further told me that since it was more than just moderately difficult to determine from the outside whether a group was either evil or just very serious about what they were doing, that it was the best policy to simply avoid them all.
Therefore, since I have been in practice in New York City, I have avoided associating myself with any of the many magical groups that are located here. On the other hand, I know of one group of ceremonial magicians who I consider not only excellent magicians, but also quite serious workers for the good of mankind. This is, however, only one of several ceremonial groups that I have learned are located in New York City. I have also heard this group being condemned for being 'snotty, exclusive , money hungry, sexually oriented, and being simply a social club.' Not being a member of the group, I cannot provide introductions, but I will say that I had been in New York City, actively looking for such occult groups for over ten years before I even heard rumors of their presence. The best occult and arcane groups do not ever advertise for, or even solicit, new members.
The importance of the quote is this; when people join an organization, it is not so much about the technicalities of the practice but of the universal human need of social acceptance. Just look at this forum; while it is dedicated to spiritual practice, the social, frivolous aspects is what gets the more attention.
QuoteWhen art critics get together they talk about content, style, trend and meaning, but when painters get together they talk about where you can get the best turpentine
Attributed to Picasso.
The main point that I want to make is this. It is one thing to be a competent practitioner, but a whole different thing to be a competent teacher. And this is where I find the locust of a lot of trouble. To be a skilled practitioner requires a certain competency in a field -- to be a good teacher requires a very different form of social intelligence. But a lot of people who are respected in the area of Y tend to carry this notion that they're also competent in the areas of X and Z by virtue of their yes men and conceit.
I.e I know a great deal about cats; hence, I can train your rabid elephant and give you a good tip on the stock market.
This is the problem with authorities. I listened to a radioshow on a long ride home, so I forget the names, but it was during the 1960's where ethics didn't play too much into the equation. It was a social experiment. A sociologist, fronting as a Doctor, called in a hospital and told the nurses that their patient needed to receive a 20 ml shot of a mystery fluid. When the nurses got to the cabinet, the label of the mystery fluid said very clearly "DO NOT GIVE MORE THAN 10 ml". It was of course just water. But out of the 23 nurses this experiment went on, 22 went ahead and disregarded the label. Only 1 said no, this doesn't feel right. Who are you?
Authority is an illusionary, but powerfull matter. Even without uniforms, medals, accolades and apostles, just posing as one during a phone call, using nothing but the voice will do. And the sad thing is that even a broken clock is right twice a day. Which makes fakes that much more alluring. You can be a somewhat competent practitioner and totalt shitbag of a human being at the same time.
At the end of the day, the reason I'm writing all of this, is that I'm frustrated by people who say "dude, just find a teacher, you can't do this on your own". Or, alternatively, "my teacher is the best, you should like totally join our club". Nope. I've seen way too many spiritually competent people fail on the social allures of being head honcho. Which is my main point: it is one thing to be competent and another to be socially responsible. Spiritual teachings and social dynamics are two VERY different things. Proficiency in the former does not mean proficiency in the latter; this seems to be where a great deal of "teachers" fail -- to succumb to the temptation of social standing, authority and power. We've seen it before and we will see it again.
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It depends. I think a timer is a great luxury to have, especially if you have a tight schedule and can only afford so much time.
I'm especially thinking about morning meditations before work. "Sorry that I'm late, boss. Zoned out blissfully in my meditation again, you know".On the other hand, there is a mental caveat about a timer which has more to do with ones attitude towards practice. "When is that damn thing going to ring, I'm getting tired of this shit". I used to have this mentality in the beginning. I've meditated 10 min yesterday and 30 min today -- that means I'm x3 times more spiritual! Which is an absurd notion. Clichés are rightfully shunned because of their simplicity, but these sayings became clichés because simplicity is the seal of truth -- in meditation, it's all about quality over quantity.
I've lost track of time as well, 15 min feeling like 2 min, so a timer is just a pragmatic solution.
I'm certain I'm not the only one to have experienced this, but I have often been attuned to my "internal clock" during sleep, often waking up a minute or two before my alarm rang. It's a curious phenomenon, and while I'm sure it could be developed further, a timer just seems much more practical
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Just now, Mark Foote said:“In a deep sense,” he concludes, “we all do live in Gödel’s universe.”
Some more so than others, perhaps. I present to you:
The Curious Tale of Steven Kubacki
QuoteSteve grew up in South Deerfield, MA, in a lower middle class family, where his father worked in a tire factory and mother was a secretary at the University of Massachusetts. He graduated from Deerfield Academy in 1972 as a day-student, where he would spend many hours in its college-like library cutting classes and rebelling. From Hope College in 1979, he received a BA in German Studies—a default major because he just had enough credits after having switched major a dozen times or so. In 1983, he earned a MA in Linguistics/TOEFL (Ohio University). However, he found linguistics a bit too academic and yearned for more intense human-to-human interactions, subsequently enrolling in a PhD Clinical Psychology program at the University of New Mexico. During his stay there, he was awarded a Fulbright-Hays Fellowship in the Departments of Philosophy and Psychoanalysis at Frankfurt University in Germany, where he studied under Dr. Rohde-Dachser and Juergen Habermas.
After finishing a 2-year internship at Dartmouth Medical School in 1992, he became a professor at the University of Wyoming and while there was awarded a Fellowship by the American Psychoanalytic Association. In 1998, he became the Director of Clinical Training at Argosy University-Seattle. Later he served as Chair of the Department of Psychology at Bastyr University until 2003. He currently has a full-time clinical practice and wants someday to become a full-time writer/blogger.
Excerpt from his own website. Quite a remarkable individual.
What he fails to mention, perhaps for sensible reason, is that he made major headlines in the late 70's and is quite infamous as a hub for various conspiracy theories.
As a student in February 1978, Steve went on a solo skiing trip in the SE area of Lake Michigan. He was reported missing the following day. Investigators found his skis and staffs, with a set of footprints from these that led to the edge of the Lake. And, here they stopped. The ice on the Lake hadn't been broken and no steps back was found. It was as if he had disappeared into thin air. I believe at some point that he was declared legally dead.
15 months later, without any recollection of what had happened, Steve woke up in a meadow in Pittsburg, MA, some 700 miles from where he had gone missing. He was wearing clothes that was not his and carrying a bag full of maps he did not recognize. He knocked on his fathers door, who lived 40 miles from where he woke up, and was surprised to learn that he had been missing for so long. He did not remember much. He felt like he had been running. He refused to talk to the media, as he had no recollection of things, and refused to speak to a psychologist, as he was adamant that there was nothing wrong with him mentally. He did not piggyback his strange story either -- there were no press conferences, no books, no movie rights, no tours of tall tales. Silence.
Some 39 years later, in 2017 (his autobiography ends in 2003), there was an interesting book published, co-authored by Steven Kubacki himself and Brian Blackmore. It's a most curious title; Meta-Mathematical Foundations of Existence: Gödel, Quantum, God & Beyond
From his own website, he summarises the following;
QuoteGoedel’s Theorems of Incompleteness and Inconsistency
Goedel's famous Incompleteness Theorem states that in any system of axioms*, supposing that the system is consistent, there will always be at least one statement pertinent to that system of axioms that can neither be proved nor disproved. All axiomatic systems are inherently incomplete. No axiomatic system is thereby capacity of determining the validity of all statements within its system of axioms. More simply, any theory, system, or interrelated set of ideas, that is, anything we can think of, is inherently incomplete. There will always be aspects of any system or theory that the system or theory cannot explain, account for, or made valid.
Goedel’s second strong conclusion proves the following: In any consistent axiom system it is impossible to prove that the axioms are consistent. Even more radically, the second strong statement proves that if we can show that there is no contradiction in our beliefs, then in fact there is a contradiction in our beliefs!
To briefly summarize Goedel’s Theorems of Incompleteness and Inconsistency:
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Incompleteness: There are always questions any set of axioms cannot answer.
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Inconsistency: There are always contradictions in any set or system of axioms
Any system of ideas, beliefs, or axioms, that offers a complete answer to existence, or a complete answer to all the questions of the universe, or for that matter, all the questions in any other system, is necessarily incomplete and inconsistent. Without a doubt, there are always flaws in the arguments presented by any set of axioms. Contradictions must exist even if they have yet to be found.
Kubacki-Blackmore Theorems of Totality and Boundary Conditions
1. Kubacki-Blackmore Theorem of Totality. This theorem proves that the incompleteness and insufficiency of any X is an infinite incompleteness or uncertainty. The totality of this infinity results in a definition of existence where everything known, imaginable, and unimaginable exists and is interconnected. The totality of everything imaginable and unimaginable is equated with the totality of existence or God. Finiteness and certainty are thereby shown to be untrue and illusionary.
2. Kubacki-Blackmore Theorem of Boundary Conditions. This theorem proves that any set of axioms, theories, physical systems, or any X, must have limits and boundaries in order to maintain coherence, structure, and order. Without boundaries and limitations nothing could be cogently analyzed, chaos would ensue, and separateness among objects would not be possible. These boundaries, however, are not constant nor fixed, but probabilistic and change in interaction with the rest of existence.
*Axioms are assumptions or statements that are presumed to be true.
Which I found VERY interesting and digestible. Quantum mechanics is certainly not my kind of soup as I do not have the brains for it, but it seems that Gödel was to physics as what Sextus Empiricus was to philosophy.
As a final note, it would seem that one of Steven's protégés saw his story in the news, having known him for 6 years prior and called him up to see what's up. To his surprise, Steven consented to spill the beans, but I have yet to see the book in print. Something very particular did strike my attention though;
QuoteAlternate timelines are explored, bolstered by Steven's own assertion that our universe is at best incomplete, and at worst inconsistent.
It is my firm belief that Steven had experienced this "inconsistency" personally.
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Back to OP's discussion; what is Neidan?
On 30.11.2022 at 12:56 AM, Zhongyongdaoist said:The real key is right in the first paragraph of the text and without achieving that you're wasting your time and may injure yourself.
Don, both you and @Taoist Texts seems to agree on this point, regardless of disputes about historical influences. The Neiye, with it's techniques of "Silent Sitting"/Numinous Mind, does indeed seem to be a universal preliminary to Neidan. Whether this particular text has influenced so and so, it is clear that "The Foundation" comes from a notion of detachment present in both the Neiye and Taoist Yoga, separated by centuries as they may be, with nods here and there throughout the centuries.
I speculate that this is a major difference between genuine Neidan and the more popular form of Qi Gong. Leaving me with this: why is it important to have a Numinous Mind before undertaking such practices?
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To Donald and Taoist Texts, whom I both respect dearly.
I've been enjoing your posts for quite a while. Years. While you've both got different paradigms; Don being a Confucian-Platonist to an inkling towards acting magically upon the world as an active agent, and Taoist Texts, confidently and most assuredly experiencing the macrocosmic powers internally, to the point of doubting the objective validity of magic itself...As someone curious, could you perchance come to an agreement to the validity of Taoist Yoga? I know it's a shabby translation, but you're both going in different directions without necessarily disagreeing with one another. Rather than arguing, is there something you most certainly agree with?
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Anyhow, this thread didn't shoot off into the intended direction I hoped it would, so I'll close it with some final remarks.
Weidan seems to have largely been a religious endavour of ritual, not a mere creation of elixirs. Consequently, the three Dantians are first attested to within the religio-mystical context of Shangqing Daoism, where they're created as reflections of the Three Pure Ones of the Big Dipper. Stuart Alve Olson has an upcoming translation of the Yellow Court Scripture that looks promising and the works of Isabelle Robinet, James Miller, Poul Andersen and Stephen Bokenkamp deals with the exegesis of Shangqing scriptures, while the Baopuzi of Ge Hong gives a first-hand account of many practices of early China.
For Neidan proper, the Cantong Qi and Wuzhen Pian seems to be the most prominent classics, before the establishment of the Quanzhen school and it's patriarchs, where the three teachings of Daoism, Confucianism and Buddhism come together, only to be split off in various sects, such as Wu Liu Pai and the Dragon Gate Sect.
I have also taken a keen eye on Monkey Press and the works of Elisabeth Rochet Vallee in particular, as she expounds on many medicinal concepts such as Qi, Ying Yang and Wuxing according to classical sources (interesting enough, the Mencius appears as one of the early sources for Qi). Though the first three volumes of Jerry Alan Johnson's work looks fascinating and very comprehensive, I'm not to keen on his generalized and non-specific approach of "ancient Daoism says..."
In general, I think a buttom-up approach is most reasonable, exploring early Daoism and progress forward in time, with the ocassional leap here and there. It seems ridicilous to jump into a particular school of thought without having studied it's roots, influences, progressional development and how it differs from others.
That is my final say on the matter. I have quite a few things to see to, so I likely won't be returning back for replies.
Take care,
Netero
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Excellent points sillybear."Greetings bums."
Hi!
"In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction."
Good idea.
"Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikst...-on-the-chakras )"
I have no idea about tantric texts since I personally study Daoism, but I would advise being careful about energy based meditation, or any kind of meditation really if you don't have a good teacher.
"This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution."
Dan Tian means Elixir Field, it is not a fixed item on the human anatomy. Dan Tian is literally anywhere there is energy in the universe. In Daoism, probably post Tang dynasty (just taking a stab at it here, because I really don't know exactly when it came into fashion) it became normal to interpret the head, chest, and lower abdomen as three dan tian which are in turn attached to a complex set of energetic meridians and vessels running all over the body. The Dan Tian areas tend to be where Qi accumulates the most, but in very old Daoist thinking, Dan could be cultivated anywhere, for instance in the Yellow Palace Classic there are many exercises used to cultivate Dan in the organs.
"Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context."
Qi is a complex word in Chinese since it denotes multiple meanings. The main meaning is air, but there is another character which is written differently and also pronounced Qi which means energy refined through emptiness. That word is specific to Daoism.
"These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales."
There have always been problems with Daoism, actually, I would say that Daoism sprung up as a solution to a problem in the first place, as all things do. Lu Dongbin was writing about this in the Song dynasty when he said that most Buddhists and Daoists end up being just like ghosts walking the earth. New age spirituality is not a new invention of the 20th century and fake spiritualists have been a mainstay of spiritual culture since very early on.
"As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin."
Good luck, but you are more likely than not to be seriously confused. Can Tong Qi is a very difficult book, as is Neiye. They are hard enough to read if you are fluent in classical Chinese, but very difficult when translated to other languages because they lose so much context. If you want to learn to read ancient texts, you should learn classical Chinese. It will take about three years of daily study to be able to read the most simple of documents fluently, but it is well worth it. I suggest starting with the jade emperor embryonic breathing classic, since it is under 100 words and fairly easy to understand (also directly useful to your meditation practice).
"Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil."
I'm sure people will be civil with you as long as you are civil with them
Internal cultivation might need better clarification, since that phrase can have many meanings. Usually, it is better to try to learn one area deeply first and then move on the others. I personally prefer meditation, since it is a direct route to realizing the nature of emptiness and developing Qi, so it dovetails nicely into other studies.
"In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources."
the only way you can really do that is to go find a qualified teacher. That is very difficult, since there are so many fake teachers on the market. I know there are several people on this forum who belong to legitimate Daoist organizations, so you might consider kneeling at their doors for a bit
Otherwise you can just shoot the shit with the rest of us plebs :) :)If I may digress for a moment, I actually found your website of Daoistmeditation before I knew you browsed this forum and very much liked what I saw. Your book of Internal Elixir Cultivation was recommended by another member here who goes by the name of tumoessence, also known as Walter Ogris of the German Hermetic Archives. The daobums seems to be a very strange melting pot - strange of the good kind, of course. Walter is a long time practicioner of Franz Bardon's IIH, a system I much admire for it's structured, fundamental and wholesome approach, so I take it as a good recommendation.
If I may ask, what primary sources is your book built upon?
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I've got a feeling you're looking down the right path, devil is both in the details and overall theory simultaneously.
I hear I King is a terrific place to start, a lot of "stuff" seems to spring from it.
It has kicked my ass repeatedly as far as understanding what the trigrams and hexagrams represent so i'm only an expert at not grasping it
I understand your concern about teachers, but you might want to consider trying to find one or more living sources to reference and ask for guidance. Maybe you wont find an illustrious and famous author but perhaps your local area might surprise you?
"It's all there" people say, but you gotta know how to read it. It doesnt seem to be hermetically sealed but a teacher could give you a jump start on the first few years of just sorting out interpretations needed to even practice fundamentals properly.
The books might agree in principle but differ in how their system is organized. How do they work together? Can they?
I've got a hold of the Ritsema edition of the Yijing and I've got my eyes on "Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World: The Yijing and Its Evolution in China" by Richard J. Smith. There is enough cross cultural comparison to keep me busy for years, but I have foundational studies to do, both in regards to Eastern and Western mysticism and magic.
The subject of teachers deserves it's own thread, so I won't go too much into the problematics associated with this topic. I believe my initial post adress some of these concerns well enough.
In regards to the basics, I recall reading years ago a reference to a Japanese work by some teacher in whatever tradition that gave very specific rules for going to the bathroom. I am not against teachers or initiations, but I have seen this attitude expressed all too often - some people just can't take a shit without the directions of a teacher.
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You can not learn Neidan from books if you ask about it. Unless it's cook-book with all instructions which are probably in Chinese and sometimes they need teacher too.
I think you are asking for impossible - that why path of awareness like buddhism is pretty universal and can be learned from books because it's mostly xing related, but to cultivate ming you need true teacher.
There is Long Men Pai english books with all practices out there from wang liping tradition but most of them are post-natal.
One thing I'm not intent on learning from books is something as intricate as Neidan. I think you misunderstood my point. To clarify; you use terms like xing, ming and post-natal -- where do these terms originate from, in what context do they appear in classical works, how did they change over time etc.
The result would be twofold; on the one hand, I would be able to judge a system theoretically, and on the other, I would be able to categorize my experiences, to aptly tell in theory and practice whether something is post-natal or pre-natal for example.
Qi is implied to be energy in the Chinese language as well
This could easily turn to a digression, so I will keep it short. Energy is a problematic word because it means very different things in various contexts. For example, keeping the word to it's mystical bent, "energy" can be equated with the Greek Pneuma, but it means different things for the Stoics and Aristotle, and along you get Synesius who synthesizes both views, based on Neoplatonic dynamics. One word, three different contexts. In Medieval and Renaissance times, you can equate "energy" with the Rays of Al Kindi, which is based on Aristotelian dynamics. And in the late 18th century, you can equate "energy" with the Animal Magnetism of Franz Anton Mesmer, which is based on Newtonian dynamics.
Whose "energy" are we exactly talking about?
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Greetings bums.
In order to understand the roots of the many contemporary systems out there and place myself in a position to properly evaluate them, I have embarked upon a study of traditional sources pertaining to Internal Cultivation and hope that some knowledgeable bums might point me in the right direction.
Suppose a well respected teacher, such as Jerry Alan Johnson, is instructing one to work with the Chakras. The practice might well prove to be "efficient", but let us consider this for a moment - the Tantrik texts have several models of Chakras, not just seven; they are created with a specific purpose in mind, and hence, a different model could well prove to have been more efficient for ones particular constitution. (see; http://www.tantrikstudies.org/blog/2016/2/5/the-real-story-on-the-chakras )
This notion, which I call the subtelty of the soul's anatomy, is likewise alluded to in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk - and yet I have read quite a few modern works which seems to presuppose that the Dantians are part and parcel of ones constitution.
Another problem is translating "Qi" as "energy" - a very arbitrary New Age notion that doesn't fit into the traditional context the idea derives from, and hence stays just that: arbitrary and out of context.
These are just some of the problematics associated with modern Daoism, and I much prefer not wasting my potential through a lack of knowledge, seduced by a love for tingly sensations and tall tales.
As I don't read Classical Chinese, I'm relying on English works and translations. I'm aware of Komjathy's PDF of "Daoist Texts in Translation" but I'm at a loss how to approach that huge corpus of works, though I figure a study of the Yijing, Cantong Qi, Neiye and Huangdi Neijing Suwen is a good place to begin.
Since Internal Cultivation is intertwined with areas as diverse as philosophy, cosmology, religion, astrology, alchemy, ritual, medicine and remnants of Wu 'shamanism', I more than welcome suggestions and discussions pertaining to these topics, provided the suggestions are true to tradition and the discussions kept civil.
In summary, I'm looking to gain an understanding of foundational ideas within the realm of Internal Cultivation through traditional sources.
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I believe it's vital to keep in mind that Daoism, being an emanative cosmology - like Neoplatonism and Indian Tantra - is formulating a very interesting idea that needs to be considered within the proper context.
Wu Wei, as I interpret it, is about letting ones Earthly nature mediate the forces of Heaven and let them do the acting.
A similar idea can be found in Kasmir Shaivism and it's cosmological model of 36 Tattvas. One of these is known as Ahamkara, the belittled scapegoat of New Agers known as the big bad "ego". It's a much misunderstood concept. The word roughly means "I do". As very dumbed down summary, for a Tantrik the goal is to change that to "Shiva does".
I believe the case is much the same for a Daoist Sage who is in union with the Dao.
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The overwhelming ephasis on personal power is a distinct product of 19th century magnetism. This sentiment is best expressed by Jules Dupotet Sennevoy, a highly influental but underappreciated figure of the occult revival. I have selected the following quotes from an abbreviated translation of his work going by the name "Magnetism and Magic".
The reader will note that I insist on none of those auxiliary methods in my experiments which were considered necessary in ancient times: the silence of subterranean passages, the cave of Trophonius, forest gloom, the sound of wind and storm, thunderclaps, sepulchral lamps - nothing, in short, calculated artificially to increase the sensitivity or activity of the soul. I use no grimoire, consecrated emblems, vervain, or magic wand. I do not make invocations, or prayer. My room contains no human relics, or "hand of glory," drug or perfume. Those who use such instruments, in my opinion, are learned in words, but not in realities, and can only influence people with diseased imaginations. Nor am I served by familiar spirits - though one magnetizer has gratuitously made the suggestion. I have never made any such claim; if there were any truth in such a statement I would confess it. I do, undoubtedly, feel a certain shock throughout all my being: I experience an unusual sensation. When these experiments are succeeding I share somehow in the process: my organism seems under some restraint. No doubt this is essential and even indispensable for the operations of magnetic magic. That is all. As for the rest, all depends on the previous preparations. I banish from my mind everything not related to my subject, and have only the end in view - a matter needing great prudence and attention.
Thus I voluntarily become an instrument and seek only its perfection as far as may be. Finding what a human machine can produce under certain conditions, I try to fulfil them. I know very little, but, had I been better instructed at the start, I should have been the first of all magnetizers. Reader, pardon my self-esteem! As I am introducing a new art to you, I must make you understand me: I claim to be a sorcerer, a magician.
I behold extraordinary phenomena; they are the result of a force or agent emerging from my own personality. Does not the power of beings that have life and force emerge from the same source? Life gives life: what matters it which organ is used? Is nature restricted to one method or channel?
Here I am verging on the secrets of magic: and my readers must "divine" where I cannot speak openly. The vital principle which animates us - has it no body of its own? Though invisible, is not its form very real? Does not the oak exist unseen in the acorn? Must we only believe what we can see with the eyes? Are we not influenced every moment by imperceptible agents? That which ever escapes our sight is exactly that which makes us what we are: life is extended throughout all Nature, but we are only conscious of its more material aspects.
Thus there exists around us in space an agent differing from all known forces, whose properties and qualities have little in common with the "dead" forces discovered by our scientists. This agent provides the substance of our life, sustains it for a time and receives it back again when disengaged from its material shell. We gain from it our inspiration, knowledge, and understanding. It has a constant attraction for us, yet is an unknown ally, and we have ceased to use it. This, and no other, is the magic element used by thaumaturgists.
As we have seen, the soul is considered the efficient cause of all magical operations - later, in the development of animal magnetism, willpower and imagination came to play a pivotal role. A reading through Arthur Schopenhauer's "On the Will in Nature", specifically the chapter entitled "Animal Magnetism and Magic", will shed a great deal of light on the structure of modern esoterica. It can be found here;The true magic agent is - the soul! You can only grasp it because it is welded to matter: and it is only so that the natural life energizes supernaturally and becomes an animated invisible. Learn to understand the operations proper to it, and you will do well to remember that all this contains a sacred mystery which must not be revealed to the first casual inquirer.
https://en.m.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Will_in_Nature/Animal_Magnetism_and_Magic
It is quite unfortunate that Dupotet's statement "indeed, we ought to substitute the word Magism for Magnetism" never became a reality. Instead, there is an underlying tendency, a culturally ingrained meme, which follows the sentiment of the early magnetisers - to interpret traditional magic through the lens of magnetism. Magnetism and traditional magic have quite different operational frameworks. It is important, I believe, to consider the magic of the oldtimers through their operative framework, not through a modern reinterpretation.
I wish to emphasize: magnetism is a subset of traditional magic, in particular of Graeco-Arabic Neoplatonism as it was expressed in the Renaissance. This post is long enough as it is, and I do not have a sufficent education in Platonism to continue further satisfactory, so I digress.
An excellent example of "ex opere operato" would be the occult virtues of minerals, plants and animals; Agrippa relied strongly on the "Marvels of the World" by the 16th century Pseudo-Albertus, who himself drew on the 4th century Hermetic treatise "Kyranides". The application of this philosophical doctrine is perhaps best known through contemporary Hoodoo rootwork.
Another example of "ex opere operato" would be De Imaginibus by Ibn Qurra, which is an astrological treatise dealing with the creation of talismans, some of them specifically suited for ones natal chart. Instead of employing the inherent powers of nature as in rootwork, one employs the power of the stars through astrological technique, which has nothing to do with "magical training" in the conventional sense.
Another important consideration we must take into account is the Pythagorean Quadrivium, being the four sciences of arithmetic, geometry, astronomy and music. It doesn't take much imagination and willpower to see how these disciplines extends smoothly into the sphere of traditional ritual magic.
With that said, the operator is never seperate from the operation - on the contrary, the two melt together. I will finish my ramblings with this: while the operator has a soul with it's own inherent powers that can be utilized, the operation too is constituted of elements with their own inherent powers.
On an interesting sidenote, in consideration of the Catholic mass, I believe it might be fruitful to consider the meaning of the Biblical Greek word power; dunamis.
https://gotquestions.org/dunamis-meaning.html
However, dunamis is not just any power; the word often refers to miraculous power or marvelous works (such as in Matthew 7:22; 11:21, 23; Mark 5:30; Luke 5:17; 9:1; 10:13; and Acts 8:13). Dunamis can also refer to “moral power and excellence of soul,” according to Thayer’s Greek Lexicon.
Perhaps most importantly, dunamis can refer to “inherent power, power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature, or which a person or thing exerts and puts forth” (ibid.). In Matthew 22:29 Jesus tells the Sadducees, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.” Jesus also said, “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory” (Matthew 24:30). In other words, the Lord has inherent power residing in Himself. Dunamis is part of His nature.
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Mastodon are pretty awesome.
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While opendao actually has provided what the thread asks for, you, Taoist Texts, on the other hand, have only contributed snide remarks with a smug attitude. These are in no way appreciated, as thread derailment is a pain in the ass.
In this particular thread, everything else than your personal experiences with potent system is irrelevant. This is a wide subject, so stay on topic.
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A Conversation with ChatGPT about spiritual practice, no-mind, neidan and emotions
in Daoist Discussion
Posted
Don't be so hard on Coop (I named him so based on the similarity of Dale Cooper in Twin Peaks). He's a language based AI, which is a fancy way of saying interactive Google search index on steroids and meth. Very limited due to the information training, but still quite fun. Here's your original questions answered.