yuanqi

Interesting. Might have to get yours. I cant remember if he spoke of it in his first book. Journey of Souls published in 1994 (i think) or not. it has less info and then some was revised for Destiny. thanks.

sounds like you have been reading michael newton. says alot about the council table. LOL i love those books. there is alot of truth in them as well. is that what you are referring to? the cool thing about inner alchemy is that we can bypass alot of that but some of it sounds fun! as to Lokes question. mine was immediate as that is what its all about when you have a real teacher. from the first touch during initiation and continually as my Guru did what he did, you may only notice a little, sometimes you may notice a lot depending on your advanacement or also mental emotional state. his most senior disciple who is a Guru in his own right helped me during one of our Kriya to experience it for myself. Not many do in the beginning but I did and He said as much. i cant discuss what i saw or what all happened as that is part of our path as well. these are our individual experiences and are for us to figure out, enjoy and if need be confer with our Guru about. they are sacred. i wouldnt dare speak about what i witness during my darshan in practice. and this is generally the norm in traditional paths, which doesnt mean i would bash those that do, but if its real and not hallucinations (you can actually tell the difference if you have experienced both) then why discuss it. the thought never comes up to discuss it. if it does i wouldnt be posting it on the internet, this is for you and the teacher. has nothing to do with what others may think either. in our tradition, everyone may have different visions yes, however, there are some that are the same and these are the markers. these are known to all that practice it. lets you know where your at and what to do as they are expected. so if you are doing some quickie technique and other things that someone made up then where are the similarities that happen in practice to let you know this is what everyone experiences at this level???? and its real or hallucination? because by God if its the real deal, you will have people experience similar things and i am not talking about just seeing visions here. also lets you know if your practice is incorrect and is a simple hallucination. the whole point isnt to get caught up in what you visualize spontaneous like that. running around town and having a vision of an Indian, Christian, Muslim or Native American is generally the mind. If it comes during meditation then it is also generally the mind. If it comes during meditation that is guided and focused in certain areas then many times its not. If it comes in practices that are concentrating on the third eye or ajna chakra using kundalini then if it is actually awake, then that vision is what counts LOL. its to be understood that when i say mind i mean the kinetic mind, this is what creates hallucinations among other things like fantasy, the still mind being focused and then losing the knowledge that you as the doer are meditating and focused is when the TRUE visions happen, this is what i am talking about. not the kind of thing where you supposedly had your kundalini awakened and are sitting doing some run of the mill meditational techniques and start seeing stuff. LOL thats not it at all. it also has to do with the current advancement of the person who is being awakened. a guru can wake you (if they are real) immediately and kundalini is flowing automatically after that but you have to use it to do whatever you have to do in your particular path. the reason why some call it a retirement plan is because alot of the so called Guru's out there are BS. so you may or may not get anything and alot charge for it during the whole time you are a disciple. LOL so its the Gurus retirement plan, sometimes you will be so old that you will be retired. LOL the real ones dont. they have the power to awaken you completely and immediately, and i will add that NO ONE holds a candle in the quickie methods to them. the real one is Unique in their own right and have immense power. If you saw my Guru walking down the street you wouldnt never know He is what and who He is. He has no ego but is beyond what most people can comprehend. There are many stories about Gurus that are not true and some that are, many have given the real thing a bad name by not being true and being unaccomplished(thats the majority of folks around the country) sure with these you would spend 30 yrs and get no where, sometimes though they have given you what you needed and it is you that failed as you didnt practice. but having kundalini awakened doesnt mean anything other than its a necessary starting point. the rest is up to you. you will not die a saint and forgo the cycles of rebirth by having your kundalini awoke by some supposedly quick method or any other for that matter, this is the human and particularly those in the west condition, that want some now, want it quick and want it easy. LOL hell just because its awake doesnt mean you are enlightened or anything else. the whole goal is not to be attracted to the results, no desire for results and no feeling when you have them. they come and thats it. practice to practice with no expectations.

Yes some of the info in the book may be verifiable. This is mainly due to some of the books in the bibliography, however, even some of those have wrong info. Such as Swami Satyeswaranandas book on Babaji. I have it as well along with many others in the list. Swamiji is not a fraud, but does claim that He met and studied with Babaji, so this fact is one reason why I WASNT drawn to him and went to Kolkata to learn. Maybe he did but some of his info is incorrect, especially parts of that book and his other book on Lahiree Mahasaya, why i dont know since he sat with my Guru and asked Him questions on all sorts of things including techniques years ago. Then he started writing books and some "parallel" my Gurus but someplaces he has changed things. But Swamiji is the real deal. Others may practice such as I do the Original technique but do not initiate and may never be able to. But those that practice what they think is real or want to be real or practice what some like Govindan teach wont get anywhere. What I stated in my post regarding my Guru and Lahiree and Babaji is FACT. The diaries are FACT and what is in them my Guru has read and are FACT, so what this means is BABAJI wasnt even known or discussed until Lahiree Mahasaya wrote about HIS Guru in HIS diaries, everything else comes from there when it pertains to KRIYA. Did Babaji have other disciples, yes he did, did they happen to write about Him, no they didnt obviously. I mean hell i wouldnt, i would be soaking up the knowledge not writing some bullcrap to make a buck. LOL the word Babaji means revered father so it is used often, but this Babaji (KRIYA) is the one I am talking about. I am telling you especially in Govindans case that what he says is not right. What he got from the other books may or may not be but by having such an extensive bibliography means he doesnt have any direct knowledge. My Gurus books dont have Bibliographies. Swami Satyeswaranandas dont, at least the ones I have (should though in some cases as using my Guruji's books for reference in my opinion) The book makes a lot of points and has great stories. Those that claim things such as this though will reap the Karma that is created by it. All the meditation and advancement wont purge it in this lifetime. IF they stopped the bullcrap now and somehow started practicing the authentic Kriya then it could be purged in this lifetime but their egos and their DESIRE (which keeps us here one life after another) for money will not let them. Perhaps all this is their Karma this time, who knows. It clearly states in many books that if the person doing the initiation isnt authorized or attained a certain level that HE doesnt gain anything and neither do his disciples, it keeps them here even longer (when i say this the actual termed used is in hell) but seeing how there is no hell this is what is meant. I would never think of doing such a thing personally or write about like i have Babaji as a teacher, it takes alot of balls, especially knowing that there are some out there that know its crap. Just trying to set the record straight. Trust me on this.

another thing that must be understood is who exactly Babaji is. one cannot know Babaji without also knowing who Shama Churn Lahiree was/is. He was only given a chapter in Yoganandas autobiography of which many facts were exaggerated or entirely wrong. After this, several books came out with their own thoughts. It wasnt until my Guru, at the request of His Guru, one of the grandsons of Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya and also the main lineage holder, asked Him to write the biography using Shama Churns diaries that more came out and the actual truth. His diaries were accounts of His practice and also some really esoteric techniques that will not be published. Such as leaving the body consciously (to throw it off) and enter another etc. He recounted His meeting with Babaji at Dunagiri and thereafter spoke of those He had initiated throughout His life among other things. One of the key features regarding Babaji is the fact that after a certain point in His diaries He no longer speaks of Babaji (Krishna Babaji is another term), this happens when the incarnated or Jiva Shama Churn merges with Brahma and becomes Brahma Shama Churn. After that there is no need for the Krishna Babaji. The interesting fact that is in His diaries He realizes thru the eternal sanatana dharma(Kriyayoga)that Babaji is Himself sent to initiate Himself into the eternal sadhana to show the householders the truth and the Guru-Param-Para way (Guru-Disciple) without having to be a renunciate, after the realization and His merging with Brahma there is no need for Babaji anymore as His attainment now supercedes His attainment as Babaji. This can be confusing I know but it makes perfect sense. So because of this fact my Guru states-"the general stream of devotees are imaginative. They are neither conversant about the inherent subject matter, nor can they ever be conversant. For this reason many emotional imaginative devotees have spun many yarns around Babaji. None of these are true. Just as visualisation of Bhagavan Krishna is not possible without sadhana, similarly visualisations of Krishna Babaji also is not possible barring sadhana. These devotees fond of fantasizing speak hyperbolically about visualising Babaji here, there etc. all these are figments of the imagination. through these fantasies self establishment in society may be perpetrated but the revelation of truth is not possible. None state they have visualised Shama Churn." (again Shama Churn and Babaji are same) so if one is being taught by Babaji or is His disciple then one is also being taught and is a disciple of Shama Churn Lahiree, then why does no one visualize Shama Churn and always say its Babajis Form. LOL The pictures you see of Babaji arent even real pictures, they are imaginative as no picture exists. So all in all I think it is complete horsecrap that someone would even have the audacity to say they learn from Him. does that mean He doesnt exist? No he does, but I can absolutely guarantee that He is not teaching someone or coming in the subtle form to them at a seminar or up in Govindans place. LOL My Guru has broken it down precisely and I cannot relay all the information unless taken from existing books of His. It is quite funny though that people travel to a certain cave or caves in the Himalayas at Dunagiri and say this is where Babaji initiated Yogiraj and also claim to see Him, but in Yogirajs own diaries there is no evidence that He told anyone or drew a map etc to the location. LOL He put most everything in these over 14 years and this along with other claims are totally absent from them. so with that said, do books like this make good reading and make one think of what might be, yes. matter of fact i love books like this and those on the taoist immortals etc, but eventually you have to realize that play time and fantasizing is over and its time to get down to practice! but it is a good money maker....

taken from a close previous student and others, the list could go on and on. before i paste it here (it came from another site F.A.C.T) i have to say that if it wasnt for my Parameshti Guru (Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya) speaking of Babaji and writing in His 26 diaries there wouldnt be any knowledge of Him. Sri Yukteswar wouldnt have been able to mention it or tell stories to Yogananda as He wouldnt have known about Him. LOL Babaji means revered father and it is used often in India. My Guru was given 25 out of the 26 diaries by His Guru, who was Yogiraj's grandson, and also alot of other information directly from Him to write a book/biography on Sri Yogiraj Shama Churn Lahiree Mahasaya. In it he details the fact that other than initiation, Babaji never appeared to Him in a physical form, ever. He also states alot of other things I wont go into here but I will say that My Guru's book and other information gathered clearly indicates that those that claim to meet this same Guru so often spoke of are fraudulent as are the stories. Great reading yes, truth no. I could go into specific details as to how Shama Churn Lahiree incarnated and who else He incarnated as and that both His physical form and a subtler form were here at the same time. This was done to show the proper Guru/Disciple relationship and also because when one incarnates one loses most of if not all of their past life memories and so He was guided to His path when the time was ripe. The initiation also occured when Yogiraj Shama Churn was 40, not 33 as Yogananda states in His book. This is verified thru the actual diaries. It is ludacrios to state that Babaji resides in a specific spot in the Himalayas as well and on and on and on. LOL anyway here are some testimonials below- "Babaji's Kriya Yoga" is now taught by Marshall Govindan and his assistants around the world. It is an expensive three-part series of classes on kriya yoga supposedly taught originally by Babaji himself to Yogi Ramaiah, who taught them to Govindan. Marshall Govindan (whom I know personally) doesn't even believe in Babaji--he merely uses the Babaji tale (about a 2000-year-old yogi who supposedly lives near Badrinath, India, but who can't be seen by PHYSICAL eyes) to promote his sadhana classes (on ayurvedic diets, mantras, breathing exercises, meditation, and hatha yoga postures). The sadhana he teaches, I might add, has been found effective only by a small fraction of the people who've taken his classes. Whatever the merits of these teachings, Govindan should stop claiming that he is teaching what "Babaji" supposedly taught to Govindan's recently deceased Indian teacher, Yogi Ramaiah. Govindan has made many substantive changes in the sadhana he received from Ramaiah. If Govindan is right that "Babaji" is the ultimate source of the "teachings" specifically concerning kriya yoga in Ramaiah's classes, then Ramaiah's students must be right when they say that Govindan is not teaching BABAJI'S kriya yoga, but rather something else. Of course, it's ridiculous to believe in "Babaji" in the first place. Govindan appeals to people's interest in astounding miracles in order to sell his expensive set of sadhana classes. He implies that you, too, can learn to do such miracles if only you'll sign up for his sadhana classes. It's rather a base sort of appeal, aside from being a fraudulent one (as hardly any such miracles have ever been demonstated by those willing to subject themselves to conditions imposed by academic researchers investigating paranormal phenomena). Govindan uses false stories of miracles to promote his over-priced, needlessly expensive classes on spiritual topics. They lead people to walk around in a dreamy state filled with illusions and fantasies about incredible "events" that never actually occurred. ................PART TWO............................. A Canadian who calls himself Marshall Govindan, a.k.a. M. G. Satchidananda, teaches an expensive series of classes on what he terms "Babaji's Kriya Yoga" (see www.babaji.ca/ or www.babaji.ca/NewSite/home.htm). Although he presents himself as a spiritual teacher whose mission is to help others progress on the spiritual path of kriya yoga, he is, first and foremost, a salesman and fundraiser. I have found, over a seven-year relationship with Govindan during which time I considered him to be my teacher, that virtually everything he says and does is motivated by the goal of getting as many people as possible to sign up for his classes, buy his books, and donate funds to his organization. He is interested in students only so long as they are likely to sign up for further classes. Once you've taken all his classes, it's unlikely you'll be able to keep in touch with him or ask him questions. Govindan does his best to convince you that when you take his classes, you're not simply receiving the information given in class, but you're also getting a teacher who will answer your questions and assist you on the spiritual path. In fact, Govindan resents having to answer questions, answers grudgingly, and complains bitterly if you you ask him as few as four or five questions a year that you are asking "hundreds and hundreds of questions." He is not interested in whether people who take his classes benefit from them, practice the techniques, or advance spiritually. His only real concern is the quantity of people signing up for classes and the size of the donations that are made by those who have taken the classes. I feel cheated by Govindan. He told me that the techniques are secret and cannot be published because it is important to learn them personally from a teacher and to work on them in association with a teacher. In reliance on this statement, and with the expectation that taking Govindan's series of expensive classes would enable me to obtain guidance from him on my spiritual practice, I travelled to India and Japan in order to take his classes, only to discover--after I finished the series and Govindan had no more classes to sign me up for--that Govindan had no intention of assisting me in any way. Apparently, once you finish his series of classes and he can't get anything more out of you, he's done with you and doesn't want to hear from you again. This explains what the secrecy is really all about--if the techniques were published, Govindan couldn't get you to sign up for his classes and hence wouldn't be able to make any money from you. The secrecy has nothing to do with getting students to obtain guidance from the teacher, because such guidance (if it takes Govindan more than a few minutes per year) is not available. Govindan has a wild imagination in thinking up excuses for not providing guidance. Even when you're practicing meditation diligently, he'll tell you you're not practicing and he doesn't want to work with people who aren't practicing. Or, when you don't understand something he wrote and seek clarification (because after all, Govindan is a rather poor writer), he'll tell you you're being "too intellectual," and leave it at that. Govindan's behavior reminds me of that of the behavior of Cuban government officials in 1939. Manuel Benitez, the director of immigration in Cuba in 1939, made money by selling landing permits which would allow Jewish refugees from Nazi Germany to land in Cuba. He sold these permits to any Jew who would pay $150. The Cuban government nullified the permits after they had been sold. The Jews sailed to Cuba, but were then forced to return to Europe because the permits were not honored. Likewise, Govindan sells admission tickets to a series of classes and an organization called "Babaji's Kriya Yoga" and claims that he is available to assist you. Only after you've paid for all his classes do you learn that he is not available to assist you. The organization Govindan runs called "Babaji's Kriya Yoga" does not exist in anything like the form Govindan claims it exists. Govindan lists a large number of "contact people" around the world on his website at www.babaji.ca/NewSite/contacts.htm . The purpose of the list is to make "Babaji's Kriya Yoga" appear to be a much larger organization than it actually is, which would encourage more people to become interested in taking Govindan's classes. Several months ago, I emailed all the people on the list and found that half the "contact people" outside the U.S. did not even reply, and three quarters of the "contact people" in the U.S. did not even reply! Much of this false information (about non-existent phantom "contact people") has been posted online for several years, even though Govindan was well aware during all that time that it was false. I told one of Govindan's assistant teachers about this and he told me Govindan was planning to correct the misinformation. When I checked the contact list recently, I found that although a small amount of the misinformation had been corrected, the list still contains a vast amount of misinformation. I don't mean to imply that Govindan has never in the past been helpful, or that he is incapable of being helpful. There have been a few occasions on which he was helpful. However, I hardly think that this justifies his refusal to give assistance after the training has been completed. So far as I am able to determine, the small amount of assistance he gives is simply to encourage people to finish his series of classes. After the series is finished by a student, he sees no reason to continue to provide assistance because he has no more classes in which to enroll such a student, and hence no way to make more money from such a student. Thus, those who have completed his series of classes are left with a set of complex exercises, but with no one to guide them or advise them on their practice. A large number of former students of Govindan have lost respect for him because they have found him to be dishonest and untrustworthy. He does not keep his agreements with his assistant teachers (known as "acharyas"), and consequently he has far more FORMER assistant teachers than active ones. Govindan simply can't be trusted. He preys on people's need for spiritual guidance in order to make money and keep his organization afloat, but he doesn't provide the guidance he promises. An example of Govindan's approach to finances is the policy he once stated to me, that Westerners may not take his classes in India, but must take them in Western countries or in Japan. Obviously, if he was interested primarily in benefitting students, he wouldn't care where they took the classes. His reason for banning Westerners from taking his classes in India is simply that he doesn't make much (if any) money from his Indian classes, which are either free or very inexpensive, whereas he earns something more substantial from the classes he teaches in the West or in Japan. I consider his discriminatory policy based on nationality to be highly unethical. In the U.S. or Europe, people are never kept out of meditation classes on the ground that they are Indian nationals and should take classes only in India. Govindan's classes on kriya yoga are taught in a far less professional manner than were those of his recently deceased teacher, "Yogi" Ramaiah. Ramaiah personally checked at length each student in his classes to make sure that they were practicing the techniques correctly. Govindan does that task so quickly (sometimes in four or five seconds) that it is impossible for him to have actually determined whether the student is doing the exercise correctly. He doesn't even wait to observe one full breath from a student before moving on to the next student learning a breathing exercise. He also turns over the task of checking the students to incompetent assistants--people who do not themselves practice the exercises or know how to do them correctly. For example, he once used an elderly Indian man to check the students' breathing practices. When I asked this assistant about the instruction to close the glottus more on the exhalation than on the inhalation, this man became embarrassed and admitted that he didn't know anything about how to close the glottus or whether it should be closed in a different manner on the exhalation than on the inhalation. Some of Govindan's beliefs are quite ridiculous. For example, he believes that in five or ten minutes, he can train people to prescribe ayurvedic diets for each other. There are three detailed versions of these ayurvedic diets, all of which are quite different from the others. Govindan thinks that in a few minutes, he can train people to tell other people which of these three diets is best for them. Govindan also believes that specific yoga postures (called "asanas") can cure serious diseases that even the best doctors in the world cannot cure. He has also taught that if Sri Aurobindo had practiced asanas, he would have become immortal. Thus endth the lesson on Govindan. anyway, these are opinions of those that have studied with him for the most part. not from me as i never have met him. but judging by what he says i wouldnt even want to. i know what i believe and this isnt it. some have the truth and others have everything else, this dude is in the latter category.

hey Seth, yeah my sentences were running together up there, i was thinking distance shaktipat here in the usa and those offering it in particular. if i wasnt practicing what i do then i would be practicing Siddha for sure. in the traditional and real Kriya lineages it is known who is authorized as they keep it recorded. as far as others go, there are different types of shaktipat and people that are authorized to do so. i was particularly speaking about those here that do mantra, distance, over the phone etc or in a weekend seminar with some type of system they came up with themselves, alhtough there are others out there that come from a traditional lineage and do shaktipat and maybe they are authorized but they are by someone that wasnt authorized to give it. LOL this happens all the time and was my point. just be wary. as far as the modernized and expanded versions of Kriya available here such as SRF among others, they may or may not give shaktipat, for that matter they dont practice the authentic techniques since Yogananda modified them and you dont generally even have a real Guru to teach you and ask questions. in the traditional methods of initiation in Kriya, shaktipat is a KEY ingredient and has been given that way since Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya reintroduced it in the 1800's. True Kriya can be considered a mixture of Laya, Raja and Bhakti Yoga and the Guru disciple relationship is as important as it is in other lineages.some say that it is a more highly advanced version of these and also karma yoga. as for the last questions you asked. in the traditional lineages that give the real thing, it is not even a question about getting shaktipat from a non authorized person as it wouldnt be considered and if you have a real Guru then how could that other person power match His/Hers as if it did then that person would generally be authorized. things are much more traditional in India and are taken quite seriously and i feel that if you are going to take on responsibility then you should be traditional and follow the way its been done since the beginning as this is what is proven to work. You are right, you dont know til you ask, and you should ask which is another point entirely. homework can provide the answer as to whether that person has authorization to perform shaktipat, if you do enough research and are serious then you will find the answers. as for people that maybe able to do transmissions of sorts, is it really shaktipat? in my opinion they shouldnt call it that unless they can and are allowed to do it and follow the traditional paths. otherwise call it something else.

nice point. i wonder sometimes why i even care if others are getting misled and misguided. then i realize that i still have work to do and shouldnt care. my Guru cares to some extent but then He also realizes that if the persons time isnt ripe to understand and receive truth then its just the way it is, they wont find Him or anyone else worthy until then...karma i suppose. so at this point i am done with it.....

Luckily i dont have to bear it. LOL its not really my concern since i am not arrogant enough to think i can provide Shaktipat to others. but i do feel that others should be informed, i mean hell, it isnt just opinion, its the actual truth LOL i am sure there are many people here in america that would disagree since we are all caught up in our way of doing things. I mean we make stuff up, steal techniques from books we read and practice from and the hallucinations we have during meditation we call a new technique and provide it to others. LOL. i wont go name a bunch of names but they are a dime a dozen across the country and beyond. i just stick to what has worked for millenia and thats hard enough to find in its own right. someone had mentioned that we from the west distill the information and cross reference it and take the truth, when in reality we and our giant egos take it and modify it and add to it cause we know best and our truth is always right. LOL as a culture we havent been around long enough to know anything. ego in action. we probably have the most abundant and youngest teachers, masters and instructors in the world here. LOL

beautifully put. and you are both correct. no one tradition has a monopoloy on it. for that matter as i have stated many times in the past, there is a link between them all, everything comes from the same source anyway. different cultures have different ideas and practices. i have practiced several methods from different cultures in my lifetime. there is an underlying truth that is similiar in all.howeverwhen someone uses the term kundalini, shaktipat and teacher in questions then it reverts to what is generally thought of as being from India and their spiritual traditions, but i do agree philosophically these words can take on other meanings depending on what one practices. to answer his question precisely and in the regard that was laid out was my intention.as far as shaktipat goes from an indian viewpoint it is supposed to be done by those worthy and with a direct relationship with the disciple. this is the context of which i am speaking and having it done authentically is difficult to find. its not at the local seminar held by someone that practices a multitude of different(or single) methods and given in the correct way under the term shaktipat. if someone is going to ask a question using these terms then they also need to understand that the authentic way to have it done is quite difficult to find and to be wary of those that claim to. many "teachers" here in the west will disagree and thats fine as if everyone else was saying that then they would be losing alot of money that is normally charged for it. even if they do it for free they dont want to hear the truth because it is them of whom i am speaking.

nevermind......

LOL yeah, your right. it is a type of qi awakening. qi = prana, prana and kundalini are linked. its understood when talking about one, you in many ways can be speaking of the other. the baloney and divergent opinions come from ignorance. everyone has an opinion, but some have truth when they speak. what gets under my skin are those that claim to do it knowing they cant. Or worse there are those that think they can and really cant and may charge money for it. all this does is delay the seeker on their own quest. the karma that is reaped by the supposed teacher will be dealt with in one way or another so i guess it doesnt really matter in the long run. LOL Shaktipat does more than wake the Kundalini. It can pierce all knots as well. It can give the disciple Samadhi in some cases. It is only by Grace of the Guru that this happens. It is not understood here in the west as it should be although in India you have some too that offer it and its nothing. Alot do it out of egotism which grants nothing and others charge alot of money for it as well which doesnt do a thing either. LOL You can find what it is supposed to be all over the internet, some are right, some are partially right and some are complete BS. but being right in theory doesnt authorize one to do Shaktipat. My whole point is to show how difficult and important it is to find the real thing if one is interested in Shaktipat, otherwise its a waste of time and money. You cant get true Shaktipat from dabblers, even those that have dabbled for 20 plus years, not even those that have attained a little something after decades of practice. Its like me going out and offering Shaktipat and initiations just because i have a REAL Guru and i practice. dont work that way....

i do not know anything about that book. if you want to know how to get some real books that are not really available here then pm me and i will see if i can get you some copies of things that may interest you. it makes alot more sense after you are practicing our techniques and read them, but i read them beforehand. they do not disclose our techniques so it isnt a book to learn how to do it, as its not taught that way as i mentioned but the TRUTH is in them. Not misinformation, not theory, not speculation but truth from the ones that have attained it thru their own self realization. it parallels the taoist approach in many ways. i studied taoist thought and alchemy for a long long long time. these can help you i am sure gain understanding even if you never approach the path i am on. there is an underlying truth and very similar techniques in many traditions that lead to the same result. the good thing about these books written by the real teachers are they arent full of philosophical bs and metaphors, it is direct, practical information. its like, and i mean this literally, a real taoist "immortal" (God please not immortal again, i am not talking about BS physical immortality here) sitting down and writing their true perceptions gained thru their meditations and internal alchemy techniques. oh by the way, dont go up to swami hariharanadas place in homestead, not the real deal (even if you go to swami yukteswars ashram in Puri and see his pic there on the wall) to get initiation, you might as well go to SRF. LOL the stars were not right for me when i was going to drive there three times over 4 yrs, then i did homework and realized the reason why it never worked out. instead of driving 3.5 hrs i took a 30hr flight to India. LOL

ok, first of all, dont take classes on kundalini. LOL 99.9% of the time they arent what the should be and one doesnt "take classes" on it, even though its offered here in the West. second thing is Shaktipat is a transference of spiritual energy from the master to you, via touch, mantra, distance etc. the best way is through touch from a REAL master. This is an awakening, spiritually, not just making the kundalini capable of rising. this is how it was done since the beginning, from Guru to disciple. only a great few were/are capable of transference when one isnt around. meaning you are someplace else like america and your teacher is in India. LOL what that means is that basically VERY FEW, even though many claim to, here in the West are capable of doing it. they just think they can, this includes doing Shaktipat while you are sitting in front of them, or even using a mantra to give initiation. most, even in India lack the exact technique of the mantra with the right meditation anyway. the important thing to remember regarding Shaktipat is that it is used to awaken the Kundalini and the Guru/Master etc is of utmost importance. The Guru should be authorized from their Guru to do initiation. when i say Guru i dont mean ANYONE (well maybe ONE) here in America that claims to be one, or even a teacher or master etc. I mean the real thing, not someone that took some classes, or studied with someone that made some stuff up or experimented with meditation and started a system (these are quite abundant). The Guru guides the Kundalini to rise the way it is supposed to, the Guru also helps you spiritually and watches over you. If you have real initiation you dont get what is called kundalini sickness/syndrome. there will be things that happen as time goes on yes, but they arent a sickness or mental problems or physical problems. this happens when you dont have the real thing. do you still have to reap the karma you have sowed, yes, does that cause issues sometimes, yes, what do you do? stop meditating cause you got the sickness. LOL, NO! keep meditating and it passes as the karma is burned. but not if you didnt get the real thing. LOL The real Guru has immense power and if one isnt the real deal then you dont get Shaktipat or anything else for that matter. Trust me on this. I laugh out loud everytime i read stuff on sites (including this one) when someone says they are offering it, doing it, they do it often whatever LOL Its a fricken nightmare. But so be it. Let me put this in perspective so you can see how important it is to find a REAL Guru/Master if interested in Shaktipat and also how difficult is truly is to find the real thing. My Guru has authorized ONE person (this person has practiced for 30 plus years under Him) to do initiation. This is a type of Shaktipat Initiation. His Guru over the course of his life authorized TWO people that we know of and thats it. Now the lineage is important to take into consideration here as well. My Guru's Guru was the grandson of Lahiree Mahasaya of Autobiography of a Yogi fame (although much of what Yogananda wrote is not correct, dont get me wrong I love Yogananda but it is in fact the truth) Now my Gurus Gurus father of course was one of two sons of Lahiree Mahasaya and He only authorized one or two do initiation. My Guru is the Chief Disciple of Lahiree Mahasaya's grandson as i said and the grandson had a son named Shibendu but he IS NOT authorized to do initiation and this is known in India and Shibendu does basically the same thing as most here in the west do, he travels around the world doing seminars, using his last name of course and giving "initiation" LOL would hate to have his karma! He started doing this AFTER his father attained Mahasamadhi (this isnt keeling over dead from a heart attack,stroke etc usually. LOL) The reason i bring this up is because my Guru's Guru authorized two people that were capable of giving shaktipat initiation and neither was his OWN son although his son did practice. Hopefully this will clarify things up for you. Regardless of the crap you read on sites etc, if you want the real thing, you have to search it out and if your karma is such that it allows you to have it then go for it. "If the time is ripe you will get initiation even if you are in the Sahara" -Yogiraj Lahriee Mahasaya.

there are threads on the site if you do a search that should answer your questions on the orbits, whether they are right or not is up to you to decide. so i wont repeat. however i will say that there are blocks along it, which are DIFFICULT to ACTUALLY open, even though by the number of people claiming theirs are, you would think its a piece of cake. LOL i wont go into that though. I wouldnt call breathing thru the nose and out the mouth a true pranayama but that doesnt mean that there isnt someone that does it that way, or that someone didnt make something up that way. pranayamas can be trouble without guidance. i dont know about the longer exhale as thats normal and easier anyway for people doing breathing exercises. in my tradition we keep it even and very regulated, it should take a certain amount of time as well. this is what eventually helps get the breath in the sushumna (susumna) and not in the ida and pingala nadis. sorry if i sound negative but there is sooooooo much untruth and BS out on the web with "masters" and GURU's etc teaching crap, or writing books to make a buck or whatever they do it for, i felt you should be given some truth and not some BS philosophical discussion/answer to your questions.

there is good info on the AYP site. not all of it is correct but it does have alot of info for you. some things are different according to what style you practice so sometimes the techniques described there wont necessarily fit with other similiar practices. the main thing to remember is that you should have a direct relationship with a teacher when practicing. some consider that old school but trust me, you wont have nearly as many problems arise. putting info on the web is great and all but when it comes to certain techniques its better to have a relationship with the teacher so they can correct problems in your own technique or fix things if you have practiced improperly. putting a disclaimer on a site that offers info isnt the same thing as having a person that is authorized to teach in front of you and to confide in. what you will find in america is hatha yoga mostly, as when people think of yoga they think of what they see on tv etc. nothing wrong with hatha yoga dont get me wrong but some Yogic techniques can cause a lot of problems if just practiced on your own without proper instruction. i find that asanas are great to get the body limber and helps to increase sitting times, but for cleansing you will need the breath work. good luck

i practice some of them. those found in the true methods of Lahiree Mahasaya. some are found in hatha yoga and others. it is still around. there is no need to practice them all, trust me. havent heard of many that do. the best overall one for cleansing that i practice is breath pranayam. it is probably the best as it cleanses the entire nadi system in your body (nervous system etc) there are others though. some teach reverse abdominal breathing but even normal breathing can be used in certain postures to cleanse. during breath pranayam use regular abdominal breathing. kriyas are actions that are practiced. those can be anytype of breathing techniques with certain postures or asanas. if you want what is called kriyayoga to use to cleanse (not that this is the goal) then there is only one person i know of in america that practices the authentic version of Yogiraj Lahiree Mahasaya other than myself and is accessible, however i cannot teach it or disclose the exact techniques. So simple hatha techniques can do what you want with proper breathing.

alot of great knowledge, some right out of the same books i have on my shelf. LOL nice discourses. now that we have philosophicalized it to the nth degree let start on how. the definition of immortal will vary or we can just say its one of the 7, who really cares. the alchemical technique is what i want to know. not that i will practice it since i have my own methods of practice now. but after 22 yrs of searching i would love to have someone not relay something else i have read or have thought of after reading the same books and give me the nitty gritty. not trying to be rude or brash. just stating the facts. we have discussed different beliefs, we all have opinions, there have been posts that were directly from the books, there have been others that were....well just there....and so back to how it works, whats the technique????????????? (and please dont copy something out of a book and say you have to fire the cauldron, taste the elixir of immortality, mount the dragon and ascend into heaven, after slaying the guardians. LOL) bueller, bueller......

First the word immortal should be properly understood. Second, I agree that Gold needs an honest answer of how to do it, problem is there is NO ONE on this site or any other for that matter that actually knows the techniques exactly. Where they can sit and type it out. First do this, then do that, then after this amount of time you must do this and so on and so on. If they do then 99.9% of the time it will be the same metaphoric crap that is written in the classics and other books. This is the ENTIRE reason I switched from Taoist techniques to the Yogic methods. Very few want to achieve what should be the true goal. they are interested in Powers, or simple playing around, stilling the mind or whatever but only a few truly want to seek the ultimate. I have yet to get an answer about the elixir of immortality as the taoist call it so i can compare to what we call the divine nectar from one person on this board that supposedly knows something. talking about it and understanding how to produce it or any results for that matter are two different things. this again is why i switched to a true and tested method. scientific actually. do this and that, and you obtain this. do this techinque for this number of times and eventually this happens and so on and so on.there are two real keys- what is the technique is one and the other and just as important if not more so is the inner desire and commitment it takes to actually do what you have to do. it is easier said than done, believe me. i have some of the answers i had been looking for but it is still a matter of inner will power to sit and do it especially if your not on top of some mountain in the middle of China with nothing else to do. who knows something about the taoist term immortality and what is the procedure for it??? its a hell of alot more complex than the orbit LOL the elixir isnt a pill, is it the embryo, doubtful but who knows, does it come from the upper dantien in one of the 9 chambers and drip on the tongue and is then swallowed, probably, maybe not, maybe it is just the saliva that is swallowed after gathering the 5 energies and breath and is mixed, does the tongue need to be in a certain postition to achieve this, most likely. but who knows, do you need to break thru the knots of the lower, middle and upper dantien, surely, do you concentrate soley on top of the head at a certain point? which chamber does it come from out of the nine in the upper dan tien perhaps the yellow court/niwan palace/cinnabar field where? oh, hand mudras surely they are used too? surely its just not circulating energy thru the du and ren channels, the tai ji pole comes into play at some point does it not? the heart or middle dan tian and its chambers are important along with the lower dan tian. since the third eye or hall of light is just a mirror and reflects the 6th chakra/palace of the jade emperor what needs to be done there? the 5 senses and airs have to be stilled, the stilled breath-is it ran thru the du, tai ji pole or what. everything must be internalized and is a complicated procedure so if someone does know something, then please enlighten us all........

EXACTLY. I know when I first started reading and studying Taoist thought 22 years ago I thought about and wondered what they meant by immortal. And like starjumper said, it has many meanings. a realized being can be termed an immortal, when i say realized i am not talking about 99% of the people that give seminars and write books on the esoteric arts. they can be older than the norm and realized and be considered an immortal. One who has left body consciously can be termed immortal. or for instance, we are all immortal due to us having souls. it absolutely doesnt mean living in the physcial body for eternity. LOL who would want to anyway? if they are advanced enough to have that ability there is no way they would! which is why it doesnt mean that. there is a video on youtube about a taoist named the bee immortal if i remember correctly, that doesnt mean he is a couple thousand years old. immortal can be a term of respect for a simple sage that is accomplished. My Guru could easily be termed an immortal due to His accomplishment spiritually, He is only 77. Hints He wont live to be 80 and will exit before then. Could He live to be a true immortal being on this planet. Surely. But like I said, why would He? It is the spiritual attainment that counts. Thru stilling breath one can live a long long time this is why some live an outlandish amount of years, but they live that long only because they are advanced enough to know what other work they must accomplish before departing. this way they arent cycled back. its a karmic understanding.

Pu-Erh is an aged leaf from green tea although a larger variety of leaf. most of the green, black and white teas come from the same plant, color depends on aging and maturity. it is left in pots and stored in caves alot of times and aged that way. Yunnan is one of the better provinces to get that type of tea from if not the best. actually thats because the tea is from Yunnan province, but different towns that produce it are the reasons for the different labels. each year will be different or have a the date on them, some are round, some look like a pumpkin and some look and are like bricks. the real stuff isnt cooked. its aged or ripened, which in chinese is like saying cooked. people tend to drink it as a regular tea, however it does have medicinal aspects that were mentioned and should be taken as such. the chinese teachers i had drank it only when they had a stomach problem. a tea that can be drank everyday to lower cholesterol, blood pressure, blood sugar among many other things is Ku Ding Cha.

very simple actually. the Chinese have a saying we learned in school. "Qi is the commander of Blood, Blood is the mother of Qi". They are inseparable. Where one goes the other goes. To little of one slows the other, Too much causes stagnation. the saying in Chinese is the essence of the relationship, although one is yin and one is yang, they can give birth to each other and intertwine.

no problem. i enjoy your posts actually. i just remembered something from a book, not that it had much to do with the actual kabbalistic view and then related to the Chinese viewpoint. but it was one view taken from a man who was trying to show similarites and differences although it was only a page in length, no where near the research i am sure that you have done. this guy writes alot of books that are used in TCM schools throughout the country, but the Chinese professors dont like them as they are waaay to analytical, they say its good theory but not good in practice. LOL I am pleased that a Westener has written a book that is being accepted in the East. Congratulations on that again. and dont regret, its not a problem, the past makes us who we are today by living thru it. take care. oh, BTW i wanted to ask your viewpoint on the elixir of immortality as the Taoist sometimes call it. We call it the divine nectar. I was thinking about it the other day and it is in several of my books written in India, including the ones my Guru has written and others. There is a certain procedure we do and the procedure has different stages to go through before it is reached along with alot of practice. I was curious of your take on it, as in years past they thought it was external, however, its not if it is the same thing as we call it, which i am sure it has to be. I was trying to relate those two as they seem to be one but with the metaphorical terms used in the Chinese writings it is difficult to actually tell. Your insight would be of help if for nothing else just to satisfy my curiosity since my original path led me to the one i am on now. I am trying to get away from the metaphors and find out what the technique in Taoist thought was/is and compare that to the one we use. I can do our technique almost to completion, although when i think i am done, there seems to be more minute details that have to be accomplished and i wont learn the rest until i am back in India. LOL I am wanting to try to compare and see what the similarities are and the differences mainly.

actually i did read it and no it didnt confuse me. i thought i would contribute a view point from one of the texts we used. showing how it was briefly presented from a western view point to show similarities etc. also to show how confusing it can be to try to corrolate them. i think you did a good job actually and your right they didnt teach the alchemical processes in school or in text books. that came from taoists from wudang and some others that visited, but then again, you dont get it all in a few weekends a year either. you do not have to be chinese to know the truth, far from it actually. personally i prefer the vedic-yogic methods of understanding truth as this is what i practice. i stated that westeners overthink. i am western and i do. less so than i used to, but that seems to be our way, not just here in America. as far as how i would corrolate them, i personally wouldnt. but when i read the post, i remembered that there was something about it in one of the texts we used and thought i would share it. as far as your book goes, good for you. i mean that. sorry if you think i was somehow contradicting you, wasnt my intention. i can tell by the snide comments you have a distaste for my comments as they sometimes disagree with yours, again this wasnt my intention. we should leave it at that.....

3 5 1 yeah thats the ticket. the following (not all) is taken from a book we used in TCM school. i skipped over some of it dealing with Aristotle as we were in school to learn Chinese medicine but this author likes to overthink (he is a westener) so he mentioned it. thought it might help since most of the books on the market in general that go into any of it are crapola or the authors own speculation which really is all you have. speculation. unless of course you remember your past lives. LOL anyway here it is. Aristotle said"earth and fire are opposites also due to the opposition of the respective qualities with which they are revealed to our senses: fire is hot, earth is cold. besides the fundamental opposition of hot and cold, there is another one, i.e. that of dry and wet: hence the four possible combinations of hot-dry (fire), hot-wet (air), cold-dry (earth), cold wet (water)"..."the elements can mix with each other and can even transform into one another, thus earth, which is cold and dry, can generate water, if wetness replaces dryness. this is similiar to the chinese view, although wood is related to wind which is air, but here we see hot-wet as air. wood isnt hot and wet from a chinese veiw point, but does have to do with wind. however, spring can be hot and wet compared to winter, so it can be confusing depending on how you look at it. the word element is poorly translated as it is alot more than what we think of as elemnt, eric mentioned one idea of it before, although it has many other qualities. at one point in china there were 6 elements with grain being the last. however, originally yin and yang theory started or was recorded i should say, around the same time as that of the 5 "elements" as they came from the same philosophical school.they go hand in hand.was about 1000bc-700bc during the Zhou dynasty, but again the world "element" wasnt used, seat of govt, mansion, house etc was used instead.