Karl

These are not stupid people that rule over us...as much as they'd like you to think so.

They have spent a lot of time trying to convince the population that they are. One of the 'art of war' rules I would imagine. Attack where they least expect, use the enemies weakness against them-the establishment is small, but the majority are ignorant whilst thinking themselves clever.

Whats this booting one past the sleeping goal keeper? You think you can implant something in My head ,right here, on forum? COOL, I wanna see this !

Why ? You think it's cool to do that ? It's breaking and entering knowing full well that the state has already got you to leave the chain off the door and the windows open. Funnily enough, last week our friends at GCHQ were telling everyone to stop using complex passwords and look on their website to find common passwords such as : password and 123456. They can hack your brain and now they wish to physically hack your communications.

Wow really? warnings applied to everything? not really my idea of fun but ok. You analyze things to this great a depth? A song lyric? fascinating. And I wasnt aware meditation was the practice of shoveling stuff into our consciousness, in my experience its the exact opposite.

Where did you get the instructions for practicing meditation ? What were the advantages promised ? What was the philosophy followed and what made you so sure it was a good philosophy ?

See, these subtle things of mind you have only witnessed during a very introspective self examination, but you have completely failed to do the same with the input of the instruction that has led you to that action. This is a logical loop. You went straight to the why and how ? But completely ignored the what, when, where?

Even subtle words of song and nursery rhyme are amazingly powerful. This is where 'sound bites' came from. There isn't a need to subjectively analyse everything unless you mean to absorb it, however, if you don't have the defences to stop it being absorbed then manipulator can make use of that fact and you will absorb it without being aware that it is now part of your conscious belief.

If I wanted to I could boot one past your sleeping goal keeper. I deliberately refrain from doing so, but I have all the techniques and tricks and the certificates to prove it. Others are far less concerned about what you absorb and I'm saying you should wake up your goal keeper and keep him primed and alert. The Trivium does that.

Does Bill Joslin have practical experience in nirvikalpa samadhi? I don't think so.

From Merging With Shiva... http://www.himalayanacademy.com/view/merging-with-siva

TI it doesn't matter.

He has formulated a theory of the effects of meditative practices which accords with many experiences of it. He could equally of done the same for taking psychoactive drugs, it isn't necessary to have taken every drug to make the inductive leap. If you are happy to continue doing what you are doing and want to ignore the theory then that's up to you isn't it ? Its just another piece of information that you can choose to integrate or, ignore as erroneous. This is the realm of reasoning. the problem is that you deal in polarities and therefore turn it into an argument you must win, instead of something to be evaluated.

I agree with his evaluation and theory, you do not, but your argument swings around a circumstantial ad hominem which wishes to crush the argument, because the proponent hasn't tried every possible combination of practices. This is equivalent to saying 'what can a man know about pregnancy because he isn't a woman'. It's a false argument.

What are you afraid it will do?

For me it won't do anything. There is plenty of anecdotal evidence on forums throughout the websphere of people who have experienced traumatic 'overloading' and enough evidence of the techniques of brainwashing to know that more extreme meditation efforts do work in that way.

I think it's a waste of time past a certain point where you can detect subtle thought and undertones of mind. It's a bit like developing an accurate gauging system which enables the practitioner to witness their own thoughts and moods as definined internal activity. Beyond that point practitioners will either continue to practice for no particular advantage, or move towards the permanent destruction of the border between self and world-few will do that, although they will often act as if they have and wax lyrically and poetically about the experience.

Once a practitioner knows the subtle currents of thought and emotion then there is no more to learn. There is no mastery or refinement although I'm sure I will catch hell for saying so. That's why I say you should appraise the achievements and decide if it's become a habitual practice/part of the ego (I am the meditator, I am follower of the Tao etc), or are they headed towards self annhialation for real and then they should ask what is driving to do that because it isn't normal, it's self abuse, a mental version of self harming/ destruction. If on the other hand you just like to sit and do the meditate practices because it's pleasurable to do so then carry on doing so, it won't harm anymore than any other repeated activity.

Currently relaxing to Boilermaker from Jesus Lizard:

That's the Roach Motel

 

That's 'black flag' the band ? I only have one album.

Black holes recylce energy.

Makes sense. Stars produce, so other things consume.

Yes and meditation can literally be ANYTHING. I used to feel in a meditative state when I was "in the zone" playing sports. Id consider my workouts a meditation. I agree Tibetan ice, like I said, a gross over generalization.

Workouts aren't a deliberate meditation. Work outs are workouts and the focus that goes with them is part of the work. There isn't any attempt to destroy ego, find emptiness or merge with the all. Many advanced meditators talk about the primacy of consciousness as being the aim of meditation. That's certainly not how we normally see the world, so this is an attempt to deliberately change that without questioning what that will do.

 Im afraid you would have to do a little better than that. There are risks to everything. The way you have presented it is as if meditation is a mind control experiment or some such thing.(at least that was part of what I got from the guy you linked to)I could with the same amount of "terror alert Red" type thinking most likely find the same type of risks in your trivium method. Doesnt make it remotely true for 95 percent of people, especially on a forum full of people who meditate. I think your argument would get more traction on a less practice heavy forum, as  opposed to long term meditators most of which are still doing it not because it sent them to the looney bin lol.But im sure we all appreciate the warning:) And I guess Im not smart enough to get your last sentence.

It's a warning could and should be applied to everything. From what is read in a book, heard in a lyric, written in tablets of stone or told by the greatest man in the world. Meditation, Trivium or the local paper we should apply the same critical thinking to what we shovel into our consciousness.

It really bothers me when someone uses a vague term like "meditation".

There are so many kinds of meditation. TM, DM, Anapannasati, breath meditation, body scanning, vispassana, inner smile, stillness meditation, loving kindness etc etc etc. and within each of the many categories, there are variations like focusing on the nostrils, or the lower abdomen, or the chest, or the place you know the breath etc etc etc.

To neglect to clarify specifically which meditation you are referring to is a travesty. You are lumping all into one category.

Further, if you were to name specific meditations, how do you know you were performing the "meditation" correctly?

TM is known to produce psychosis in some cases after extended practice. DM is a form of TM.

So, what are you calling meditation?

I don't. That's for the practitioner to decide how it fits with their practice. Bill Joslin seems to have a good understanding of many of the different styles of practice. I only know DM so that's my only direct experience.

Oh I dont know, Ive been seriously meditating for a few years and I havent "lost my mind" yet. As far as "full conscious responsibility" If anything I am both more aware of my own bullshit and others as well, and thusly am able to assert better my will in situations i used to find terrifying that dont phase me as much anymore. Sure theres been some rough spots but on the whole its been a net gain. This seems to be a very vague gross over generalization on your part, perhaps regurgitated? I hope not. Also I am not super familiar with the trivium, but on first glance it appears it could lead someone to be very much "in their head" and not acting very instinctively. I could be totally wrong but I have found in my life I have made some of my best decisions when I didnt over analyze and try to reason everything out..when I really dug deep and tried my best to think my way through adecision i inevitably fucked it up haha. Maybe im doing it wrong:)

It doesn't always lead there, just the same as most people can take LSD without any issue. It is more about the effect that the meditator is trying to achieve.

It's not about decision making, it's about the concepts you use for decision making.

Thats better, he intended to be cautionary, but in a stand alone un mitigated presentation it looks extremely negative. Doesnt he know thats bad karma ?

Would I be right if I guessed the clinical style of dissection appeals to you?

It does to me , but the conclusion part , as I said , didnt seem right. Your additional background info fixes that.

As far as acting goes, .. we all play roles ,fill our lives with illusions we love and hate, and in the end it can be unclear as to which could be said to be realer.

I hope these heavy clouds outside clear. Seems like they show up special for the weekends.

It didn't appeal, it was a bit over complex for me. It really only says exactly what most meditators say.

Yes, I'm in one of the bigger wings. 5 point restraints at the moment...

Ooh what are you flying manitou ?

I looked up this Joslin guy and while Im not doubting he may have some valid points or agruments about meditation that are relevant-FOR HIM- I had to laugh a little bit when he proclaims meditation is a form of "Mind control" by "gurus" etc trying to get something from their students- then, in the comment section I read how those who are following Joslins work are eager to ahem, cough up their $$$ in order to hear more of his teachings etc. Kettle meet pot or something something. hehe. I am not saying their isnt value in his thoughts or whatever, its just an..interesting dichotomy.

Yes, always be aware of that. There again the garage mechanic asks you to cough up cash to put in the car. The mind control bit can be for more than just money. Sometimes it's just cult and power. Particular it's male gurus and Female students. Bill is as entitled to make money as anyone else and he suggests strongly that anyone should properly examine the motives of any teacher that is messing with mind. It's a pity parents don't consider that when they send their kids off to a group of strangers at a state school.

What is it that you don't believe Karl?

Where are you at that you don't believe what is next is possible?

It's entirely possible and highly probable. The question should be 'do I want this'?

The thing is Karl, for every one account like "Bill Joslin" one can easily find tens or hundreds of opposite accounts of what meditation has done for someone in a positive long lasting manner. And just because it didnt work for you, which ive no doubt it apparently didnt, doesnt mean plenty of others havent benefitted in a remarkable manner. Your trivium method is anothers meditation is anothers prayer is anothers contemplation and so on and on. Im sure you view the trivium method from the prism of reason and logic and for you thats a great way to break free , and Its awesome you found it works for you but dont discount other ways as well. Although I havent personally followed their methods- thedharmaoverground.com is a great place for a logical thinker such as yourself to go check out how meditation can be approached from a very practical, step by step way to "awakening"  or whatever. These guys have maps etc that they use to guide them through their meditation experiences based on the teachings of the buddha. You should really check it out as I think for you it may give you a different more "scientific" view of meditation and what it can actually do to/for people.

I think you are perhaps confusing what works and how something works. Make no mistake about it. If you want to lose your mind, then serious meditation will do it. That's what everyone's says they want and that's exactly what they will get. The Trivium isn't something that works in that way, it is 180 degrees in the opposite direction. Meditation will give primacy of consciousness and the Trivium, primacy of reality. The first will absolve the practitioner of responsibility the second installs full conscious responsibility. The choice is not mine to make, maybe for some, the first option is where they want to be. I'm putting the yellow light on that's all. Just check it's really what you want, combine some reasoning with the meditation and ask 'what' is is doing and 'what' is it you are trying to achieve by it.

Perhaps I am acting.  The only edge I've been to is the one where you're alone, all alone out there in the darkness.  There is no other presence there, no sense of presence at all.  The identity falls off around you.  You get an absolute feeling that you have the choice of returning or not.  It is terrifying.  Are you speaking of another edge that I missed?

I don't think you have come to it. There are a lot of false starts in which it's possible to act out/practice what you are ultimately intending to do. You can skirt around and play at it, but, there is a point where I knew it had turned serious. It was at that point I wound down the practices trying to discover which one was causing it. It was the meditation.

I should worship that which I am, which is a Star. Think about it.

 

You are made of stars. You are therefore stardust.

 

Since you are a star, you can do many things that are cool...such as create new planets

 

Which star you are made of controls your fate....

Well, made of the stuff of the universe and not specifically stars, but I see where you are coming from. However, I should point out, that as every other object is also composed of the same stuff you may relate to a snail, earth worm or termite, even a kettle. So it may not be true that you can make stars, you can certainly make kettles which are more useful than stars for making a hot drink. You have converted star stuff into something that can be utilised which is far more impressive :-)

http://www.triviumeducation.com/]http://www.triviumeducation.com/[/url]

 

thanks karl, never heard of this before.

I took the course suggested by Gene Odening. If you look on the site there is an interview with Gene which has something like -start here. If you are interested beyond that then Gene can send you a study guide which points to course material/books. (I have it on file if you want, but listen to the interview first and see if it's for you). The recommendations of recorded lectures are by Peikoff and I was somewhat sceptical about using his lectures as I knew he was Objectivist and wanted something more neutral. In actual fact he uses an introduction to logic by Lionel Ruby which is a very straight textbook and sticks to it (adding the objectivist version to show the difference). It was cheap to download ($11) and there are 20+ hours of lecture material and a worksheet. I found it quite tough. I had first thought I would jot down a few notes and cruise through it, but in the end it took just over 3 months to complete (but I was trying to master it which I believe is a mistake ). I'm not inherently logical so I could feel a physical sense of gears grinding inside my skull.

You aren't going to like this, but you should read it.]

I thought it interesting but flawed since it doesnt appear to admit ,what some experience as positive effect. The thrust says meditation is malfunction. Its like the answer you would get asking a shrink what cured is. essentially .. when youre just like people expect. Like themselves. If you look at the general population, theres a lot of misery and malfunction. Im not saying meditation makes perfection, but the general population is hardly the shining model it pretends to be, pretends to honor. So essentially, without a valid standard of happiness or functionality all this description provides is a template on meditation, the disparaging conclusion is not an objective one. The author might as well toss in some fire and brimstone, threatening to start the burning of witches... and a prayer.

Sent from my iPad

That's just the PDF file. There is a full interview and commentary after on the website. The writer-Bill Joslin- has been meditating for over 19 years plus many more esoteric practices and has been a teacher for several years. In the following discussions he says that meditation is a useful tool to get to know how you think, and the subtle nuances of mood. I agree with that, it is exactly how it seems to me. He said that the positive effects are achieved within a few weeks-I think a bit longer is required from my own experience I would say 6 months/whenever the practitioner can detect the subtle flow of thought/emotion.

There are several discussions on the scientific/medical testing of people during meditation and Bill has observed some of the trials and says they are not double blind tests and are flawed.

I would say that most people would get faster results from studying the Trivium and of course that has a measurable educational value in terms of improved thinking. It's the improved thinking that throws out all the misery, dark thoughts etc and clears the mind on a permanent basis. However, I always keep in mind that I did meditate consistently for 8 years before starting the trivium and so I can't spilt the two, but it was abundantly clear that the trivium surpassed anything I had gained during meditation/mindfulness/self Inquiry by a long way.

The issue with meditation is when it becomes intense practice, particularly under a teacher. It's literally brain washing. Even flying solo you can find the edge of the disintegration of self.

I was reading Manitou's comments and wondered if she had reached that edge? However, the later replies to your posts re-assured me she had not reached that point and was more than likely 'acting'. A lot of esoteric practices can be 'imagined' (like you did as a child when you wore a cape and pretended to be batman), so the results are more 'acting out happiness/ success'. There is nothing wrong with doing that, particularly if it helps act a happy person than a depressed one. Yet, serious practice can be harmful. The disintegration can become real. A teacher will tell you not to fear this edge point and to 'let go' or some such thing. Anyone who teaches that point will know it and hospital wards are full of people who got to that point without meditation, but by trauma/psychosis. They give up self responsibility completely as their minds just won't cope with the stress/ emotion. The answer is to use meditation but with care-regard it as a 'get to know me better' casual thing, than trying for a joining of the 'all'.

On that topic of plants and geometry, eyelid closed plant assisted visuals tend to predominately be beautiful fractals of sacred geometry. 

 

Perhaps the human mind already knows how to generate all these amazing complex sacred patterns, or perhaps the plant knows and somehow shows your mind. 

 

Unlimited Love,

-Bud

I'm seeing the fractals in the plants directly-or so it would seem. I think it might be a bit like the matrix in which we recognise essentially the same patterns that make up our own brains and ultimately the way our consciousness works. Everything is resonance.

Compassion doesn't matter if it is returned or not.It is far from wasted.I will say you are trapped and you are making the trap bigger and bigger for yourself.All the best on your journey.Tom

You are welcome to your opinion. I say you are journeying up a culdesac and can take a simple shortcut which doesn't cause the issues meditation can cause for some people. Not that it necessarily will for you, but it can be a lot of effort to discover you didn't exit the bed, just turned top to tail. Still that does somewhat focus the mind by removing one pointless route.

M74 ? I can see a few galaxies with the 8" Dob on a very clear night when my eyes aren't so shot. Winter is coming so I should get out in some dark sky haunts.

I thought I was imagining things, but since studying the Trivium I can see golden ratio arrangements in all sorts of things-particular plants and trees. Over time this has become quite strong. It dawned on me that shaman might actually be able to use this to make an inductive leap identifying the underlying chemical structures of the plants and are then to relate them to disease and ritual use.

Intelligent Design.

Then intelligence is a constituent of the universe itself. Yet, as far as we know, it is only humans that are consciously aware of that design which leads to some interesting conclusions. That the entire thing unpacked itself from one single set of ratios. The golden cut.