Geof Nanto

This reminded me to reread what he wrote:

On the cusp of this solstice day, and as 2020 draws to a close, I’d like to offer a prayer of thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum, not only the more visible members who post frequently but also those less visible who give this place a depth of presence. And a special thank you to the moderators, without whom, as recent experience has shown, this forum would commence a slow death spiral into domination by those possessed by a dark power that revels in bullying, childish bickering and name calling. My prayer: May our diverse levels of engagement here continue to flow freely in that liminal space of healthy vitality which exists between excessive order and excessive chaos. (Other prayers most welcome.)

I have no interest in engaging in verbal sparring with you, especially as you’ve shifted the ground of your argument into something I can almost entirely agree with. I particularly like the gardening analogy and have previously cited it myself. I live in in a semi-wilderness area and have spent a couple of decades on forest regeneration projects. Working this closely with nature has given be some of my greatest teachings about the nature of Dao. As to alchemy being about reversal of nature; that too is part of the Dao. Laozi wrote “the Dao works by reversal.” Also we human seem to have an instinct to go against our instincts, such is the complex web of chaotic yin-yang forces within our psyche that forms the primary material for our alchemical work. If what I originally wrote has no meaning for you, then I’m Ok to leave it at that, though it’s far from an ideal outcome. I haven’t got the energy for pursing contention, and, quite simply, my heart isn’t in it. I’m content with the way my path is unfolding and in my words here I try to convey a little of what’s important for me and also gain greater clarity into myself and our human psyche in general.

I confess to being more than a little perplexed by this. For me spirituality is something that grows ‘self-so’. It’s an intrinsic part of our human psyche. It comes from the Dao and will always try to manifest itself. However, we are certainly capable of holding attitudes that block Spirit from affecting us. That comparison of spiritual practice with the precision a solving a mathematical problem brought to my mind this analogy: Left to nature and instinct babies are conceived, grow in the womb and are born, all without conscious interference. In fact, the more we can let the forces of nature flow without inference, the more smoothly the process goes. However, when the natural processes fail then conscious human involvement comes into play. For instance, we now have ‘test-tube’ babies and that certainly requires precision like solving a mathematical problem does. My thought is that spirituality in civilised society has lost its spontaneity and become like creating test-tube babies. We have depotentised the forces of yin and yang so that they are no longer capable of fruitful copulation. In this sense, the structured methods of systemised Neidan are an outstanding example of ‘test-tube’ spirituality. Hence the precision required in consciously working with such complexity. To my mind, left to Nature the alchemical transmutations will happen in their own time and in their own way ‘self-so’, but only in rare instances will the ‘Immortal Embryo’ be conceived. Whether or not this ‘pregnancy’ happens within me, I for one am content to allow Spirit to take its own course because experience tells me that way I’ll gain an outcome appropriate for my place within the Dao.

Yes, this has evolved into an interesting discussion, as do many Dao Bums topics. My natural tendency is to just read topics that interest me and contribute silently with my own deep reflection on the subject. However, I appreciate how poorly silence transmits over the web. Hence some words….. A seed sprouts, a plant grows and a flower unfolds. It’s simply following its nature yet the processes are almost infinitely complex. That to me is the essence of Daoism. My cultivation consists of yangsheng (nourishing life) methods, plus extensive psychological clearing, to better align myself with the forces of Dao. It’s the Dao in all its manifestations (including the divine) that then guides the complexity of subtle new life growing within me. Sun Bu-er (12th century; China): A springlike autumn’s balmy breeze reaches afar, The sun shines on the house of a recluse South of the river They encourage the December apricots To burst into bloom: A simple-hearted person Faces the simple-hearted flowers. Spirit and energy should be clear as night air, In the soundless is the ultimate pleasure all along. Brambles should be cut away, Removing even the sprouts Within essence there naturally blooms A beautiful lotus blossom One day there will suddenly appear An image of light; When you know that, You yourself are it.

Any real wisdom I have has been shown me by Spirit, starting with an extreme vision quest I was guided to undertake during a downward spiral of my life back in 1982; a quest which took me as near to death as it’s possible to go and still survive. By divine grace I got my vision but I also caused massive damage to myself. After almost 40 years, plenty of qi work, many teachings and much life experience, I’m still coming to terms with the implications of that quest. It was both profoundly spiritually helpful and profoundly physically harmful. My sincerity and devotion is because my life depends on this work. Most people are spared such a path but I take comfort in the words of those who aren’t. From William Blake, The Four Zoas: What is the price of Experience? do men buy it for a song Or wisdom for a dance in the street? No it is bought with the price Of all that a man hath, his house his wife his children.

Thanks Manitou but there's no easy way for me to answer those questions. In that post I'm speaking very broadly whereas you have given some specific examples of how these unacknowledged emotions might play out. And you've even gone into some analysis of possible causal factors, which may or may not be relevant. I rather not go there as it's something for us all to individually come to terms with (or not come to terms with) in our own unique ways. From my experience, for such exploration to be productive it needs be done with empathy within an atmosphere of profound compassion, either one on one or within small groups of people with similar psyches. Any desire I have to try and force this type of work onto people is more indicative of my own unacknowledged emotions, and when I do feel this need, it's within myself I look first. That's what I do with all my interactions here. I don't post much because I get plenty stirred up within myself to work through from what may seem from the outside to be a low level of interaction. Believe me, it is not! Of special importance is the feedback I feel outside and beyond the words. In that way Dao Bums has helped me enormously in gaining deeper insight into myself and into our human psyche in general......is helping me still. If one avails themself to it, there's a stream of healing magic at work here.

From reading these Dao Bums discussions the sincerity of the majority of members is apparent. And it’s obvious a number of people here have had real spiritual experiences. There are strong strands of profound insight on display along with plenty of knowledge of a wide selection of spiritual teachings. That’s why I like the place. However it’s also obvious from the way these discussions are shaped and play out that in most all cases, including my own, these insights sit within a chaotic web of poorly acknowledged emotions. Hence I have no trouble concluding that a lot more needs to be done by us all, and even more so by those who are apparently too blinded by their own light to see their own darkness.

Your final sentence has strong parallels with what is meant by true xing-ming cultivation in Neidan according to Li Daochun and Liu Yiming. Could be reworded as follows: The formation of the Golden Elixir is when you have truly aligned, integrated and realised the non-dual nature of awareness (xing) and energy/substance (ming), completely and indestructibly. Easy to say, next to impossible to do. And so many different paths. From my practice: True emptiness is the womb from which it grows and is born. The Golden Elixir, the atman, the Self.

I’ve been reading this topic with interest. It’s a great comfort for me to hear discussion circling around the essence of the type of practice that’s central to my life. Much has been mentioned that I could follow up on, however due to my own energy restraints I’ll limit myself to what for me is a central theme: The term ‘shen ming’ has many associations in Daoism. The usage that most interests me is Shen Ming as bright spirits. These sun-like ‘shining ones’, mentioned in the mythologies of many cultures, have what seems to we humans as infinite compassion and wisdom. They can be felt ‘inside’ but have an objective existence of their own and live in realms of subtler energies. Beginning with the Neiye, various Daoist writings suggests they will come to us if we cleanse our heart-minds. Perhaps this is true. I’d say it’s a mystery why they make themselves known to some people but not others. The Shen Ming choose, not us. They are definitely not at our beck and call. The Shen Ming do not want us to worship them, nor do they want dependence. They reveal glimpses of themselves only to show their existence. They may give us guidance when absolutely necessary but mostly leave us to find our own way. It’s like they’re there but always just out of reach. Hence, their presence feels like it’s always receding. What the Shen Ming want is for people who are on this path of shen ming realisation is for each of us to cultivate ourselves so that the seed of our own unique Shen Ming will find suitable nourishment to germinate and grow within us. That germinated seed is known as the Golden Embryo or Golden Elixir. Once grown to maturity our Shen Ming can leave the womb of our body and exist independently in the realm where other Shen Ming live. I suspect this happens at the time of bodily death for those rare few who succeed with such profound cultivation. But our embryonic Shen Ming can only grow to maturity in so much as we are able to nourish it with the pure essence of the wisdom (xing) we’ve gained through a thorough engagement with life. Without this hard-won wisdom essence – a wisdom that’s been emptied of ego and desire; this profound compassion born of a lifetime’s struggle – we would have nothing to offer the realm of the Shen Ming. Working with qi alone can never give us this but it can give us a solid basis (ming) from which to proceed in our engagement with life.

Both eastern and western alchemy are hugely diverse traditions. My purpose here is not to attempt an objective overview, that’s a task for academia, but rather to find within those traditions accounts that give me insight into my own experiences. Beginning with my OP, that’s been my focus with my comments on this topic. I personally have no interest in alchemical substances, hence my avoidance of the subject. But that’s not meant to negate the path of those who are.

Although these European alchemists worked externally with chemicals and some actually believed the Philosopher’s Stone to be a substance (as do some Neidan practitioners believe the Golden Elixir is a substance) right from the time alchemy entered Europe from Alexandrine and Islamic sources it inherited a spiritual component. Many medieval and Renaissance alchemists in Europe were well aware of the fact that the Stone and the 'matter' for making the Stone were to be found within the alchemist. Something that brings a wry smile to my face (in that it profoundly interests me too) is the way these Dao Bums discussions regularly seem to gravitate towards the end result of practice, be it enlightenment or whatever else one cares to call their goal. I personally strive for wholeness. After over three decades of practice, I relate the Golden Elixir and Philosopher’s Stone to atman or Self and hence the inner experience of wholeness. But, to use alchemical terminology, the work of purifying the complex web of yin and yang forces within me so that they naturally copulate in the right way is the work of half a lifetime at least. And only then with wise guidance. Early on in my Neidan practice, I conceived of ‘the child in belly’ as something akin to a tulpa (and so it might be conceived of as such within some Neidan lineages) but not now. I’ll leave off adding anymore commentary until later. I’m impressed with the quality of discussion so far but I find in my oldish age (66) that I can best cope with the pace and multiple voices of these Dao Bums discussions by absenting myself for a while so I have time for reflection. Outside and beyond the words, there’s much that comes through directly from the participants, from people who read but don’t add comments. and from Spirit. For me too, my best commentary is from outside of my words. Edit: I’m just back from a walk in the forest which surrounds my cabin. It’s a very warm spring day, 30 C. Little raiin the last few months. The land is fast drying out. Fortunately, the legacy of the devastating forest fires that swept through here Nov last year means this year at least is low fire hazard. My life is simple, quiet. My cabin is my hermitage. What I want to add here is that theory is increasing becoming nebulous for me. Within myself, word meanings and concepts tend to blur together. It takes much effort for me to focus enough to make the sort of reasonably coherent posts that are necessary to communicate on this forum. Yet I know from past experience how much I’ve gained from writing as honestly as I can about my practice.

Here's an extract from Lindy Abraham, A Dictionary of Alchemical Imagery that outlines how the Philosopher’s Stone is born. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with Neidan will see the similarities. I’ve gone to the trouble of adding it because it goes to the heart of the alchemical method and relates directly to the preceding discussion: Philosophical Child The philosopher’s child is the philosopher's stone when it is first born from the union of Sol and Luna at the chemical wedding. The Emerald Table states of this child that 'the father thereof is the Sun, the mother the Moon'. Isaac Newton wrote in his commentary on the Emerald Table: 'And this generation is similar to the human, truly from a father and a mother, which are the Sun and the Moon. And when the Infant is conceived through the coition of these, he is borne continuously in the belly of the wind until the hour of birth, and after birth he is nourished at the breasts of foliated Earth until he grows up'. The generation of the philosopher's stone is frequently likened to the birth of an infant or homunculus. An anonymous treatise says that after the wedding of Sol, the 'red man', and Luna, the 'white woman', 'she will come to him again and lye with him on bed and then she shall conceive and bear a Son, that shall worship all his Kin... For this Man and this Woman getteth our Stone’. The Glory of the World observed: 'Hence it is well, though somewhat enigmatically said by the Sages, that there takes place a conjugal union of husband and wife, and that of the two a child is born after their likeness, just as men generate men'. Morienus wrote: 'For the conduct of this operation you must have pairing, production of offspring, birth and rearing. For union is followed by conception, which initiates pregnancy, whereupon birth follows. Now the performance of this [alchemical] composition is likened to the generation of man, whom the great Creator most high made not after the manner in which a house is constructed, nor as anything else which is built by the hand of man'. The infant Stone is also sometimes personified as a female child representing sophia or wisdom. (see Andreae, The Chymical Wedding, and Mylius, Philosophia reformata). During the conception and birth of the Stone the alembic is known as the womb or the bed of birth. The Stone is known as the orphan and the alchemist plays the role of its foster-parent. As Ruland noted, 'The Chemical Philosophers find their infant ready formed by nature'. During the cibation, the alchemist must gradually nourish the infant Stone with 'milk' and 'meat' (the white and red mercurial waters) so that it may become sweet and strong. When it has grown to maturity this infant has the power to conquer all disease and transform all things to perfection.

@mrpasserby I like what you’ve written in your above two posts. I haven’t read many of your contributions to this forum but I knew enough of you from what I have read to know of the importance you place on experiencing the ethereal realm. Hence I was puzzled by your adding the ‘confused’ emoticon to my OP. I can only assume you misunderstood what this topic was about, with Fabrizio Pregadio’s account of Neidan practice reaching into (and perhaps beyond) the ethereal realm. Perhaps you’d like to explain your motive for adding that emoticon? Further, do you consider that the addition of any of those ambiguous oppositional emoticons to a person's s comment creates disharmony in the ethereal realm? This is not meant as a challenge, but rather I'm genuinely interested to hear your perspective.

Sourdough breadmaking just happens to be one of my best skills. I’ve been making it for myself every 4 or 5 days for at least 25years. (In fact, I have a loaf rising at this very moment. It will be ready to bake in a few hours.) I learnt from reading a variety of recipes and then by trial and error. I buy the organic grains in bulk and I fleshly grind them into flour as needed using my stone mill. Even after all these years, home-baked sourdough is still my favourite staple. I still delight in its aroma as it bakes and feel blessed by what feels like a miracle of new birth when I take the loaf out of the oven and place it on my cooling rack. Over the years people who have tasted my bread regularly ask me for the recipe. Early on I used to try and tell them exactly how I make it, including all the variations of ingredients possible and the many tricks I’ve learnt along the way. However, I slowly realised from the feedback I received that was unnecessary effort on my part because it was not possible for them to absorb so much theory. Also, my way evolved to suit my own lifestyle and constitution. Now I just say: “Read some recipes and experiment yourself. That way you’ll come up with a loaf that suits your own taste.” Then I outline very briefly the basic method. Sometimes they have problems making their own starter and giving them some of mine helps them know what active starter qi feels like. When they later tell me the variations they’ve come up with through their own experimentation, their delight shines through. And I delight in the fact that they’ve put in the effort and made the basic method their own. I guess there’s some basic pointers in this to how I view the learning of Neidan. For anyone starting out who feels drawn to it, I’d emphatically recommend working closely with a competent Daoist yangsheng teacher for an extended period of time, preferably within a small group of students. With that you’ll establish an active starter qi within yourself and enhance your felt alignment with Dao. From there, with experimentation, your own personal path will slowly reveal itself to you and become clearer as you proceed.

Although I’m not familiar enough with Hindu traditions to affirm your connections, I fully agree that finding such parallels is a great help for understanding the underlying reality that the differing culturally conditioned terminology tries to convey. I myself have found the work of Carl Jung extremely valuable in that regards, especially his extensively researched insights into Western alchemy. Although their methods have nothing in common with Neidan, the way they can never describe in straightforward language their realisations and goal (which they call the philosophers stone; “the stone that is not a stone”, also called an elixir) has striking parallels with the mysterious reality Neidan practitioners try to convey with surprisingly similar imagery. Both can only hint at their inner experiences using obscure metaphorical language. They do not intentionally write in code in order to guard their secrets, rather it reflects the impossibility of conveying the reality of, to use Neidan terminology, pre-Heaven ming-xing embodiment (‘the body that is not a body’) through the intellect. This reality is by its very nature secret. The beauty of a work like Fabrizio Pregadio’s ming-xing essay is that it gives an overview of over 1000 years of Neidan in China from which such comparisons as yours and mine can be made. That there are such connections makes sense in that all we humans have a similar psyche from which mystery traditions the world over have arisen. Although the various practice methods have evolved in line with their different cultures, once they reach into the fundamental forces shaping our human psyche, which Lui Yiming and Li Daochun describe as pre-Heaven, their insights are very similar: The Golden Elixir, the philosophers stone, the Atman, the Self, to give but a few names of the unnameable. However, knowledge such as this means nothing, in fact inhibits more than helps, actual ming-xing realisation.

No way can I give any meaningful answer to this in a few words, if at all. I’ve written about my ever-evolving practice and perspective in numerous threads over the several years I’ve been a member of Dao Bums. But to give you some small idea of my connection with Neidan, back around 1990, when I first read Zhang Boduan's (Chang Po-tuan) "Understanding Reality" [The Wuzhen pian, 悟真篇] with a commentary by Liu Yiming as translated by Thomas Cleary, the alchemical language sent shivers up my spine: The tiger leaps, the dragon soars, the wind and the waves are rough. In the correct position in the center is produced the mysterious jewel. Fruit grows on the branches, ripe at the end of the season; how can the child in the belly be any different? Even though on an intellectual level I had no way of understanding this, on a deeper level it felt totally familiar. I felt I knew it and reading it was like coming home. Hence, shortly afterwards I packed up my belongings and went on a worldwide search for teachings. From there it’s been a long and interesting journey to say the least!

It’s no quick read either but a rewarding one. I thank Fabrizio Pregadio for granting us a great gift by making this essay (and others on his website) freely available. I printed it out as I don’t like to read anything long from a screen. That way it not only reads as something substantial and solid but feels it too. Having started the topic, I’m content with the essay being either ignored, read and absorbed in silence, or for it to precipitate further discussion here.

Thank you @ilumairen and @steve for adding those references that include previous posts of mine on shadow. I read them through and am content at this stage to leave my contributions on the subject to what I’ve already said. I note that Giles wants to take this discussion away from Jung’s insights into his own experiences. I’m very happy with that as it means I don’t have to contribute! My growing preference at this late stage of my life is for silence. The more recent posts I've made on this forum are very much at the urging of my inner voice. But I'm increasingly finding it a burden to express myself in words. I don’t consider Jung's insights to be convoluted and am happy to let his words speak for themselves for anyone who’s drawn to read them.

Yes, that's where emotional work should lead us. I realised a few days ago after writing my long post on the previous page that the OP title is another way of saying love is the path. However the word ‘love’ is such an abused cliché it’s become almost meaningless. It no longer has emotional power. The love I’m referring to is not the tame, domesticated, sentimental opiate that passes for love in contemporary society. Now I can read the following passage of Jung’s about love and deeply feel it. It resonates with my own hard-won inner experience after decades of alchemical transformation of my own chaotic emotions. Whereas when I first read it about 30 years ago it scarcely registered with me: At this point the fact forces itself on my attention that beside the field of reflection there is another equally broad if not broader area in which rational understanding and rational modes of representation find scarcely anything they are able to grasp. This is the realm of Eros. In classical times, when such things were properly understood, Eros was considered a god whose divinity transcended our human limits, and who therefore could neither be comprehended nor represented in anyway. I might, as many before me have attempted to do, venture an approach to this daimon, whose range of activity extends from the endless spaces of the heavens to the dark abysses of hell; but I falter before the task of finding the language which might adequately express the incalculable paradoxes of love, Eros is a kosmogonos, a creator and father-mother of all higher consciousness. I sometimes feel that Paul's words 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not love" might well be the first condition of all cognition and the quintessence of divinity itself. Whatever the learned interpretation may be of the sentence "God is love," the words affirm the complexio oppositorum of the Godhead. In my medical experience as well as in my own life I have again and again been faced with the mystery of love, and have never been able to explain what it is. Like Job, I had to 'lay my hand on my mouth. I have spoken once, and I will not answer" (Job 40:4 f .) Here is the greatest and smallest, the remotest and nearest, the highest and lowest, and we cannot discuss one side of it without also discussing the other. No language is adequate to this paradox. Whatever one can say, no words express the whole. To speak of partial aspects is always too much or too little, for only the whole is meaningful Love "bears all things" and "endures all things" (i Cor. 13:7). These words say all there is to be said; nothing can be added to them. For we are in the deepest sense the victims and the instruments of cosmogonic ‘love.’ I put the word in quotation marks to indicate that I do not use it in its connotations of desiring, preferring, favoring, wishing, and similar feelings, but as something superior to the individual, a unified and undivided whole. Being a part, man cannot grasp the whole. He is at its mercy. He may assent to it, or rebel against it; but he is always caught up by it and enclosed within it. He is dependent upon it and is sustained by it. Love is his light and his darkness, whose end he cannot see. "Love ceases not" whether he speaks with the "tongues of angels," or with scientific exactitude traces the life of the cell down to its uttermost source. Man can try to name love, showering upon it all the names at his command, and still he will involve himself in endless self-deceptions. If he possesses a grain of wisdom, he will lay down his arms and name the unknown by the more unknown, ignotum per ignotius that is, by the name of God. That is a confession of his subjection, his imperfection, and his dependence; but at the same time a testimony to his freedom to choose between truth and error. [Jung uses the term ’Eros’ in a much broader sense than its usual erotic connotation, as should be obvious from the above quotation. For him it’s the feminine (yin) quality whose essence is psychic relatedness. It’s the great binder and loosener. Its counterpart in Jung’s psychology is Logos, the masculine (yang) quality of objective discrimination.]

I like that. For me what works well is Daoist praxis for my ming cultivation and Jung’s psychological insights for my xing cultivation.

I agree with all this and have previously mentioned much of it. And yes, there’s been too much focus on the moderators. I suspect that's because they're a new team, operating under new forum guidelines, and still working out what that means for the forum and for themselves. One of my concerns that I've previously expressed less explicitly is that they will stress themselves out by being too self-critical and want to resign from staff. I don't want that to happen. But I also like it that they show this degree of introspection. Hopefully, as they feel their way into their roles and we members adjust to the new guidelines, the focus on the moderators will naturally fall away and they will become more an invisible stabilizing presence as per the ideals of classical Daoism you mention.

"Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of Western theosophy, but not the confrontation with the shadow and the world of darkness. One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The later procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular." ~ C G Jung (I'd amend the first line to read: Filling the conscious mind with ideal conceptions is a characteristic of much of contemporary spirituality.) I fully agree agree with your comments about the quality of moderation on this forum but for me the way I engage with discussions such as this one are definitely part of my practice.

I completely disagree with this. For me, the health and psychology of this forum is a worthy subject of our attention. It's something we all can influence with our input and it helps determine the shape of this forum. For me, engaging with it and working through how it I feel about it all is a totally meaningful part of my practice. To my mind it's far more productive to engage with this sort of discussion about our Dao Bums community than, for instance, countless words on American federal politics. From a practice perspective, that sort of discussion also its place but only in so much as people gain insight into hidden aspects of their own psyche. It can have no meaningful influence on American politics.

Yes. Along with Daoism, Jung has given me my most valued teachings. I suspect he has special appeal for those of us who have ventured too far into darkness. I have gone as near to death as is possible with still surviving. That experience, many decades ago, took a terrible toll on my body but gave me profound spiritual insight. I've needed much Daoist based praxis in order to recover. For that, shiatsu, diet and a qi focused style of yoga have helped me enormously. One of the best aspects of learning shiatsu was working with a small group of like-minded people under a gifted teacher who I felt a great affinity with. If you can find something like that I'd highly recommend it. I found that level of close contact with people is very healing.