LaoZiDao

in a nutshell,

nei dan is xiantian practice based on wuwei and wu bu wei.

qi gong is hou tian practice based on converting post heaven breath into qi which runs through the blood.

although qi gong has some xiantian cross over in terms of long term effect on the body, it doesn't develop xiantian qi which can be felt in the way that nei dan does.

nei dan also doesn't develop hou tian qi in the same way as qi gong.

because you would neither wish to spend the entire day moving (too tired) or at rest (need to get the blood flowing), qi gong and neidan are wonderfully paired practices.

I also do cha dao, which is a whole other take on qi.

I believe self cultivation practices work along one continuum.

my teacher has a saying "wen yi xiu mei," or "culture and arts cultivate beauty."  that basically means that we can use culture and the practice thereof to cultivate a better lifestyle. 

I think the Daoist concept is very universal, and although Neidan is a school within Daoism, it should be treated more like a college at a university than as the entirety of Daoist pracitce.  Just reading the classics cna inform us that Daoist thinkers pretty much covered every posisble realm of study available to them at the time they were alive.

 

Where did you learn this about XIantian and Houtian? Funny that there is no mention of this only until recently (the last year or so).

 

 

What School / Linage, who is your teacher?

 

 

xiantian qi which can be felt in the way that nei dan does.

 

Yuanqi cannot be felt by humans..

 

 

Regards

 

 

http://fiveimmortals.com/dan-dao/

  great damage to Qi.

I'll be there Looking forward to it very much!

 

I would like to ask the moderation team why comments like this does this not get flagged for trolling? It's not related to discussions at all, it's completely nothing to do with Dao, nothing to do with the OP, nothing to do with the quoted comment, it's not continuing debate on the conversation, it provides nothing. So why is it not flagged as trolling?

 

 

Hi;)

 

care to support your statement somehow? Thanks

 

Pretty much it's been discussed multiple times over and over. I don't feel like repeating it, it's not necessary.

What is neidan semantically? Literally it means internal elixir. I.e it is not a practice, it is an object. To say that "I practice neidan" is incorrect, since an object can not be practiced.

 

Who cares how you call it? The name is not important, the method is.

The counterpart of the western alchemiy in China is a Taoist religion of Quanzhen which requires observation of moral precepts, celibacy, vegetarianism, religious rituals, heremeticism, monasticism, charity, humility and almost as an afterthought, as something that is supposed to happen automatically based on the merits of the above - elixir creation.

 

You're speaking nothing about the ancient Daoism, only modern Daoism.

 

What you said about Quanzhen Dao is completely wrong, and very common modern views / ideas. Nothing related to the ancient Dao.

Yes, neidan does not. Alchemy does. There is a huge diff between the two. I will be glad to elaborate on that if anybody is interested and starts a new topic re that.

 

In English you separate these 2 words, can you do it in Chinese?

 

 

Thanks luckily that is not the case. I do practice real dao in the form of internal alchemy and  i am very successful in it. 

 

"my point is that neidan does not work"

 

 

 

Dear Lao Zi Dao

 

thanks for asking: my point is that neidan does not work and to market is as something that works via belittling other methods that do work is dishonest.

 

 Students are therefore as many as hair on a cow's skin, but those who achieved immortaliy as rare as a unicorn's (qilin 麒麟) horn.

 

Right. That is not what the text you quoted said anyway. But ill let you have it, it's your opinion, and your doubts are fair enough for you. But you are just closing yourself off from any opportunity, and that's your choice. Your choice to keep yourself isolated from Dao.

 

 

The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue.

 

The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'.

 

Yet the very same text the list was culled from gives lie to this claim, truthfully explaining that

 

A. minor methods cure diseases and prolong life

B. neidan does not work for an absolute majority of the practitioners.

 

One paragraph above The List:

 

Lu said:

"Ever since the beginning of time, people have learned about the Tao, understood its principles, and attained it. After

they attained the Tao, they left the dust of the world and went to the Peng-Iai Islands. Then they ascended to the celestial realm, entered the realm of celestial yang, and eventually reached the Three Pure Realms. Honored teacher, why do you say that although people have heard of the Tao, they could not attain it, and although people have tried to practice its teachings, they could not reach it? Is it because the Tao wants to hide from us?"

 

Chung said: "The Tao docs not hide from us deliberately. People couldn't attain the Tao because they did not trust its teachings, and those who trusted the teachings did not practice diligently. Some practiced it for one day and abandoned it the next day. Some remembered the principles in the beginning but forgot them later. Some started their training with enthusiasm but soon lost their interest. This is what I meant by the Tao being hard to attain even if you knew about it and tried to practice it."

 

         

 

"The List is used for marketing (negative advertisement) purposes. The purpose is to belittle all other methods in order to make neidan into a mass product thus maximizing the revenue."

 

These arguments / attacks you always come back to are getting old and overused now...

 

"The claim is 'the minor methods are bad, neidan is good'."

 

This was never really said like this, you try really hard to not see what is written I guess. Taiji, Baugua, Xingyi is great, for fighting, not for Neidan, who said it is bad? 'Meditation' has its uses for medical purposes, not for Neidan.

 

Sure, in the perspective from an Xian, anything that is AGAINST the way to Great Dao yes it useless. But for example, for you maybe some Taiji or something else is not absolutely useless for you, for now.

 

 

 

 

How does one know whether they are on a side path? Or on the direct path?

 

Moving towards or away from the Tao?

 

Scriptures will help guide you away from false paths.

 

Having a true teacher is the only way to know what true path is though.

 

 

 

 

Can anyone help?

How to tell someone has genuine LHBF? There is a teacher near me, I want to check his linage etc.

 

I don't know much about LHBF.

.

Any tips?

edit: double post

@LaoZiDao

 

Does the philosophy of your school include merit, as in having enough positive karma in order to progress in Neidan?

 

Or is correct training the only requirement?

 

Correct training.

Certainly, the psychological and even physiological changes that internal alchemy can induce go beyond a simple change of one's belief system. Yet I would say that they go hand in hand with the latter. And based on your post to Marblehead, you seem to agree that individuals create (or significantly contribute to) their own life experiences according to their internal processes. Are you with me so far?

 

Define "internal processes"

LaoZiDao,

 

Although some traditionalists wouldn't like to hear this, what you are saying here is in full agreement with the teachings of Seth, an entity channelled by the famous psychic Jane Roberts. Seth emphasized, over and over again, that we ourselves create the reality of our life, based on our beliefs. But I have never before heard this stated so clearly by a Daoist.

 

Do you know any Daoist texts which elaborate on this, either by Master Dongyang or somebody else?

based on our belief is not really what is being said. There is reason why the word "believes" is used, more to soften to tone to be more welcoming to outsiders.

 

If it was said as Daoist know for sure this is how it works and all others are wrong, its not so welcoming for others with differnt backgrounds who are intersted in Daoism, more likely to deter some from wanting to know more.

 

Its more discussing it as a concept for public to more easily understand.

 

Neidan changes fate and not based on beliefs..

 

I have not really explained myself here very well, if at all. I'll try come back to clarify later.

 

"To hold the key to your life means to master natural power and natural power is creative power, this is the internal elixir"

Master Dong Yang

"There are a great many reasons for studying what Daoist have said in the past. One is that we cannot separate the history of Daoism from that of humanity. Daoism is largely discussion about matters on which few ancient Daoist masters are quite certain, and majority of the world hold opposite opinions. As knowledge increases, the sciences get greatly developed. The study of Daoism should make our own ideas flexible. We are all of us apt to take certain general ideas for granted, and call them common senses. We should learn that Taoist have held quite different ideas and that our own have started as very original guesses of Daoism. But the Daoism is really a vital key in the process of the survival of the fittest. "

 

"Daoist believes that the future depends on ourselves" - Master Dongyang

some things about life we have no control over. This is nature.

 

"way of reversal of nature" going against nature in a sense, I think your not understanding the importance of this statement. This is the way of Daoist Alchemy. All things in life you have control over...

 

"My destiny is inside me, it is not in heaven"

 

You're responsible for all things in your life, all actions, all reactions, all interactions, health, sickness, wealth, its all fate for ordinary people. Alchemy makes it possible to "change your fate".

"How could I regret my life? Tao gave me birth, Tao will give me death. This is the way of nature."

I don't really know a great deal about Zhuangzi, so I cannot really comment on how correct or incorrect the translations are here.

 

 

What I can say though:

 

"Tao will give me death. This is the way of nature."

This is the way of creation and destruction, in other words "ordinary Dao" not Da Dao.

 

Great Dao that Laozi speaks of is the way of reversal of nature, taking destiny into your own hands, not nature controlling your destiny, to take hold of it and claim true freedom. Ie: restoring life, returning youth (all are some practical effects of restoring Yuanqi).

This may be valid but I suggest that pre-Heaven Chi still exists. But we do need open ourself up so that there is a place for it to enter and perhaps even stay a while.

No pre-heaven Qi, no life.

 

It definitely exists.

 

To restore and keep Yuanqi(neidan) and reduce wastage(extensive sleeping, celibacy etc) are not the same things either. The latter still leads to death, ie: complete depletion of Yuanqi.

 

To spend it, its happening at all times, lifestyle can reduce waste, Neidan methods can restore Yuanjingqi.

i find this interesting. The greatest masters live normal life spans. some up to 200 years (as far as i know), but rarely further.

 

The big question is Do they die from pre-heaven exhaustion? Or maybe they die from....something else? old age i guess?

 

but that wouldnt make sense if they had completely merged their physical body with the light (celestial immortal..)

 

so why do they die?! maybe pre-heaven qi exhaustion..

Most Martial Arts Masters die quite young I find, because they deplete their Yuanqi.

 

If they are really celestial immortal they do not die, already before this stage its possible to be hundreds or even millions of years old. Chances of you hearing about or seeing such things is next to 0.

 

Your not understanding basic Daoist theory. Maybe go and read Neijing for starters.

Traditional Neidan methods are to restore pre heaven jingqishen. Marble is both right and wrong. If we had no preheaven Qi (Yuan Qi) we would not be alive. On its complete depletion comes death. Qi separate from Shen (Yin Shen emerges) still within Samsara.

 

Before cultivate "lightbody" its first a requirement to restore Yuanjingqi, then join with Shen = what's called 2 Qi or Xing Ming merging = elixir = embryo of Yangshen = "light body". This is the basic schema found in Neidan classics and traditional schools.

Aussie here, welcome

Your talking about things that can't be proven online. What is in texts is what we can discuss, keep talking about wanting proofs of immortals...no such sense to keep mentioning this. No such things will ever take place. You find immortals and learn from them, Immortals have no interest in finding you, and proving anything to you

"This is a malicious lie with the goal to give power exclusively to schools and authorities."

 

Man...no words... enjoy your day.

 

I will reply to you Apeiron&Peiron later.