LaoZiDao

Is it the Taoist concept that the spirit remains after death of the body? I thought it is more to Buddism. And again, it seems like MCO does not help significantly to become an immortal...

A Yin spirit releases after death. Death occurs because of depletion of Yang (specifically Yuanqi, Yuanjing). So there cannot be any fantasies of Yangshen / becoming Xian and so on after death.

 

Agree, Yin spirit remaining after death is definitely popular in Buddhism. But even then, many people didn't even achieve achieve such things like "astral travel" etc, but they think they have. Travelling in their fantasies.

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I saw these messages last night and was going to reply. Why do you clear them? You don't stand by your words?

@LaoZiDao, 'Gui Xian': Gui meaning Devil, a Hell being, Xian meaning an Immortal. Being an immortal in the realm of Hell(s), is a rebirth from the human realm to a hellish realm. Any being existing within any of the 6 Realms, including the Heavens are subjected to Samsara and hence subject to the cause and effect of karma. I suppose that in your spiritual training, you have been taught tangent to this typical and standard Buddhist belief. To stop samsaric existence, karma needs to be expired.

Thank for interesting topic.

 

About this "heavenly realm":

 

"In Buddhist tradition, the Deva realm is populated by godlike beings who enjoy great power, wealth and long life. They live in splendor and happiness. Yet even the Devas grow old and die. Further, their privilege and exalted status blind them to the suffering of others, so in spite of their long lives they have neither wisdom nor compassion. The privileged Devas will be reborn in another of the Six Realms."

 

"

Deva. Deva-gati in Sanskrit. Tendō 天道 in Japanese. The realm of heavenly beings filled with pleasure; the deva hold godlike powers; some reign over celestial kingdoms; most live in delightful happiness and splendor; they live for countless ages, but even the Deva belong to the world of suffering (samsara) -- for their powers blind them to the world of suffering and fill them with pride -- and thus even the Deva grow old and die; some say that because their pleasure is greatest, so too is their misery"

 

I agree about the gui.

 

About heaven realm in Samsara, it seems to be nothing in common with what Daoists achieve with Yangshen, Yangshen is outside of Samsara, beyond Taiji.

I offered a lot of intelligent critique concerning our untouchable icon Zhongliquan who is able to sum up all different buddhist practices in one sentence and with one kind of practice, but your mind is too brainwashed to even think about it!

 

So I repeat:

Has some superior taoist yang shen immortal saved the poor historical Buddha from his miserable fate of haunting the hell realms forever as a ghost (devil) without consciousness yet...?

Firstly I think you have misconceptions about yangshen saving Gui. Secondly I think you missed the main point Zhongliquan made. you continue to ramble on fueled with emotion. Calm down and it can be discussed in civilised way. We are all here to learn and grow, right?

So, according to Zhongliquan, every Buddhist (including the historical Buddha of course) who achieves enlightenment (I guess that's what he meant with "attaining the dao", although he obviously doesn't even know the correct buddhist words for it)

as the result ends up as a ghost without energy and consciousness (as he is has no yang) haunting the netherworlds and stuck there forever...until a taoist immortal yang shen comes along, has pity and saves the miserable ghost immortal!

 

And, has some superior taoist yang shen saved the poor historical Buddha from his miserable fate yet...?

 

Plus:

You believe that without questioning because Zhongliquan is some sort of authority for you.

All together, very telling in several ways I'd say!

Your attitude is foul, Wells.

 

You seem to have no interest in Daoist discussions? or any respect for anything about Daoism. Zhongliqian IS an authority inin Chinese Daoist circles. As is Ludonbin.

 

Anyway your have provided nothing for your arguments except a lot of emotions.. can you support your arguments with anything we can all discuss?

 

I doubt that.

Sources?

 

 

钟曰：“法有三成者，小成、中成、大成之不同也。

Zhong said: Methods have 3 levels of achievement, small achievement, middle achievement, great achievement, each are distinct.

 

仙有五等者，鬼仙、人仙、地仙、神仙、天仙之不等，皆是仙也。

Xians have 5 classses, Gui Xian, Ren Xian, Di Xian, Shen Xian, Tian Xian, each differ, but each one is Xian (immortal).

 

鬼仙不离于鬼，人仙不离于人，地仙不离于地，神仙不离于神，天仙不离于天。

Gui Xian not leave from [realm of] ghosts, Ren Xian not able to leave from the humans [realm], Di Xian not leave able to leave from the earth  [realm], Shen Xian not able to leave from spirit [realm], Tian Xian not able to leave from heaven [realm].

吕曰：“所谓鬼仙者，何也?"

Lu said: What is known as Gui Xian (Ghost/devil immortal)?

钟曰：“鬼仙者，五仙之下一也。

Zhong said: Gui Xian, out of the 5 Xian's they are the first and lowest level of Xian.

 

 

...Skipped small part where Zhongliquan continues to explain some features about Guixian (you can check original text your self)... and finishes with:

 

 

虽不轮回，又难返蓬瀛。终无所归，止于投胎就舍而已。

Gui Xian, while not repeatedly going through Samsara, they have not place to return, only merely stop the reincarnation and nothing more."

 

吕曰：“是此鬼仙，行何术、用何功而致如此？”  

Lu said: Right that is Gui Xian, so how to reach this?

 

钟曰：“修持之人，始也不悟大道，而欲于速成。形如搞木，心若死灰，神识内守，一志不散。定中以出阴神，乃清灵之鬼，非纯阳之仙。以其一志阴灵不散，故曰鬼仙。虽曰仙，其实鬼也。古今崇释之徒，用功到此，乃曰得道，诚可笑也。”

Zhong said: By beginning cultivation and not realizing the Great Dao, as well as desire to attain the goal quickly. Cultivation can be compared to a still sitting tree, the heart as if cold and dead ashes, Shen knowledge internally conserve, not to scatter the mind aspirations and concentration. By calmness and stabilizing therefore the Yin Shen can release, it is the clear spirit of a Ghost, pure Yin, without Yang, it is Immortal. Because using the mind aspirations and concentration the Yin spirit wont scatter, for these reasons we call it Gui Xian. Although its called  Xian, it's actually a Gui [ghost \ devil \ spirit of dead].  From ancient times til now Buddhist disciples, hardworking diligent practice therefore they call it attained the Dao, truly ridiculous and laughable.

 

...Zhongliquan also continues to explain about each other level, Renxian, Dixian, Shenxian, Tianxian etc which you can check yourself...

 

P.S. Any one is welcome to suggest corrections on the translation, it's probably not perfect - I am no professional.

You should check out tummo if you believe that Buddhists don't have Ming Gong or don't accomplish serious results in tantien and central channel cultivation! Because those kind of buddhist exercises are anything but Xing Gong.

 

I had a quick look, maybe you can provide something you have found about it?

 

I did not see much that made me think it is anything like Minggong in Daoism. I saw a lot of mention about working with post-heaven energy, and "visualization" etc.

how many Buddhists do you personally know?

Well, I've met plenty, I have family friends who are also Buddhists (Chinese who live in China). I also happen to live very close to one of the biggest Buddhists temple in southern hemisphere as well. Oh also have an acquaintance of a family member who is living monastery life in this temple.

 

So I've met and know enough.

 

Don't really see what point you're trying to make by asking other than some attempt at a small personal jab. Sorry it didn't work out.

You should check out tummo if you believe that Buddhists don't have Ming Gong or don't accomplish serious results in tantien cultivation! Because those kind of buddhist exercises are anything but Xing Gong.

Maybe read more carefully, I said most Buddhists, Huineng for example, great. Bodhidharma, I didn't criticise.

 

Also, about your comment: if there is "anything but Xing gong" that is also sad, because both Xing and Ming gong are needed.

You are follower of certain ideas and conceptions without any proof in hand same with those buddhist. Escaping wheel of samsara is not attaining anything. If yangshen would be possibile Buddha would speak about it and way to realize it but yang sheng is not permanent. Entering jhanas you attain yang sheng for X milions of billions of years but then you need to go cultivate further.

To be honest, you are follower of your own certain ideas and conceptions without any proof or anything to back up what you say (not that I've seen so far). Mixing this and that, telling you can create Ming methods simply overnight, probably by accident.

 

You've obviously read a lot of books (probably not in Chinese or Sanskrit?) about a lot of different traditions.. which is good for you, but maybe too many books... at a point all such books become a clutter in the mind and cause many blocks.

I doubt that.

Sources?

Hmm it's not doubtful at all. Many Buddhists work with Xing, Xing without Ming, result is a strong Xing, weak Ming, hence why it's possible to release a Yin spirit, because of the Yin state of the body from long time sitting, compare it to dying person..

 

What allows Yin spirit to release and cause death to regular man? Because of weak Ming - i.e. depleted yuanqi)

 

As for sources, how about Zhongliquan.

 

He mentions about it. You can check it in first chapter of Zhong lu chuan dao ji.

 

If I have a moment I'll provide a quote.

Sudden Enlightenment is the key objective of Tibetan Buddhism. The Historical Buddha, in the suttas, spoke of his numerous rebirths(500) and the practice of Perfections (Paramitas) in the cycle of births before coming to his final birth. In the Tibetan tradition, the practice requires the total annihilation of karmas in one's current life-time so that there is no more rebirth. An Arhant is a non-Returner. The process of enlightenment requires knowing what is Ignorance, the opposite to being enlightened, how it (ignorance) can be removed and be replaced with greater wisdom. The Buddha spoke of 7 factors of Enlightenment and can be referred to if you wish to have more information on this fascinating subject on the path to emancipation.

Sure, but it's also important to consider that many Buddhists thought achievement of Yinshen (gui xian) to be escaping the Wheel of Samsara and stopping the rebirth. Which I think is not shedding the karama, it's like permanent death..no rebirth, no chance to achieve Yangsheng. Worse than death even.

执却病坐功而欲学之以求成仙者，不传

 

Brother Wu says: clinging to low-level sitting work and seeking to complete sainthood - no transmission.

I'm no professional translator, but what I got is different from you. I did not see where it mentioned about 9 years facing the wall, what is the rest of the context of this text? Can you share it please.

 

What I got:

 

"To carry out task to prevent or cure disease with sitting work (Zuogong), as well as the desire to study to become Xian, the knowledge is not passed on / transmitted."

 

To me it is telling those who rely on methods to prevent and cure diseases (Qigong), could not be used for Alchemy.

http://www.goldenelixir.com/quotes/quote_of_the_week_46_ryj.html

have you confirmed this by checking the original scripture, And not the translation or interpretation on this website?

 

Curious if you have it handy would like to see.

so you can say with certainty that you are on a path of side-effect of a future physical immortality?

 

And how many more lifetimes will it take to get there?

 

If you are on a destined path of immortality, then I suspect you can see the future as the future is now.

 

BTW There are some on this board who can see past and future...  maybe immortality is now. 

I am not making much sense of what you are asking, and by the way I said nothing about any path which I am on.

 

Side effect, huh?

"the achievement of immortality is not a desire to leave the memory about oneself to descendants and not a desire to live on earth forever (and physical immortality and longevity, although considered realistically achievable, but have never been the supreme goal of Taoism), it’s realization of the supreme freedom which lives in every man, although he usually doesn’t know about it. This is described very well in Zhang Bo-duan’s “Chapters of Understanding Truth”. Thus, Taoism is not a philosophy or religion but the Way of Freedom."

 

"Taoist alchemy is the Doctrine about finding THE UNITY. And it is not about physical or life consciousness (as they understand the spirit), but the achievement of the particular state which is the Highest Possible Human Achievement In the Realm of Spirit. The purpose of Immortality in Taoist alchemy is more aimed at the spiritual immortality rather than the physical immortality"

 

Source: http://all-dao.com/immortality-achievements.html

Physical immortality is for those who clinging to the illusions of their own mind.

I disagree, it's a "side effect" of Alchemy.. it's not the "goal" of Alchemy.

Attacking people by name is the only thing you learn from your true teacher?

 

Except being proud, what can you provide anything valuable to prove you really learn something from your true teacher?

 

I just don't like to see people eat junk dao and tell the truth, did I hurt you?

 

Why are you so rude ?

 

What are fighting for?

 

Money?

 

What do you want to get?

 

Did I stop your tricks?

 

If you are not happy about life, you just change it.

 

You should not attack someone.

 

Attacking people is your dao?

 

Stop doing the stupid things.

 

You won't get better if you keep on attacking me.

 

I won't stop telling the truth.

 

You have no ability to be a cultivitor.

 

How can one do meditation when his heart full of violence?

 

How can a blind man ask to see the light?

 

It is impossible to see the truth.

 

Your mind is not ready.

 

Training the heart is the first step you should learn.

 

But I think you don't train your heart, or you won't say something so rude.

 

How terrible a blind heart can be.

And you just said plenty of rude remarks. Eat your own words.

You asked similar questions already:

 

http://forum.daode.ru/f1461/yangshen-nature-37713/#Content

Su Wen chapter 1 doesn't talk about "restoring yuan qi with TCM".

"Anywhere in there is there mention about returning Ming by TCM?"

 

It's what you suggested before.

 

Hopefully it is clear for you now.

 

Thanks.

But what neidan looks for (in one of its sateges) is to replenish yuan jing and here is where it parts ways with TCM

Thanks, that's right.

 

Which is what I mentioned, I didn't say Neijing does not contain any details about Yuanqi. But it contains nothing about replenishing it with herbs or Qigong (if I'm wrong please provide a quote). There is a big difference, which is obviously hard to see for some.

Actually the first chapter of the Su Wen addresses that subject.

Provide a quote where it talks about restoring Yuanqi with TCM. You fail to understand the difference.

Of course they can.

 

It's good to "stay in your lane"...if you practice a certain type of alchemy, and aren't a Chinese Medicine physician, it's best to only speak about your particular style of alchemy and not about Chinese Medicine.

I didn't mention about any specific "style" of Alchemy. It's basic Daoist principles, and what you say goes in opposite direction to the basic principles of Daoist knowledge. As was pointed out in above comment.

 

TCM is not Alchemy, you can check about it in Neijing. A TCM Scripture, not a Neidan one. Anywhere in there is there mention about returning Ming by TCM? I think you know the answer.

 

Maybe you should stay in your lane, stick to TCM and not mix it with Neidan details you have no clue about (demonstrated by your comments).

Vibrations， frequencies, divine energy.. hmmm, I really do feel like I'm on a New Age board, not a Daoist one. Ahh.. Western Daoism...

Ming is also based on non doing. Unless you practices lesser ming. 

 

Alchemy requires a-lot of 'doing' until achieved high level (when no longer normal human), then non-doing becomes possible. For human, its all about doing the hard work to get the result and transform, until then, it's a-lot of doing-youwei. 

 

Do you mind to describe 'lesser Ming' and what you mean exactly? Do you have any references from any Daoist Scriptures? As far as I see it, there is either Ming practices that return Ming-yuanqi, and practices which claim to be Ming but are not (ie false methods). Higher Ming or Lesser Ming methods I have not heard about it. If practice of Minggong exists in a School there is nothing "lower", or "lesser" about it. It's a treasure from any point of view.

 

Sure there could be levels of effectiveness across methods/Schools, but that is also very individual to the student.