LaoZiDao

On 1/27/2017 at 6:55 PM, Orion said:

Yes, yes... there are always secret tales reserved for secret circles and special people who jump through enough hoops to be worthy of them. Those circles are always convinced that there are immortal humans out there walking the earth, and if you're privileged enough you'll get to see them some day.

 

You're already immortal. No special koolaid is required.

 

All the texts and secret teachings about attaining immortality are not taught by people who are hundreds of years old. Your only rebuttal is that immortals exist but they are so far removed from society that they have no use for us, thus we will never meet them. How convenient.

 

You're talking to someone who has seen and believes in many esoteric things that the mediocre world readily dismisses, but I do not believe immortals exist as a physical embodiment. At least not human ones. The fact that we live and then die is a gift.

Thanks for sharing your opinion though it's not the stance from Daoist point of view.. and seems to make Daoism approach devoid of self cultivation.

You see, again when you faced with contradiction you try to play funny games.Fallacy is that you choose from 8 Immortals who is folkore who is real again only to suit your twisted agenda.If Lu Dong Bin exsisted why Iron Li didnt?You fall in your contradition and now you try to rescue yourself with double standard trick.I am sure people here on the forum are to recognise this.

http://pages.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/chin/bashian/bs0Intro.html

Btw, I said "the story about him has no practical sense in Alchemy"

Meaning the folklore stories in the 8 immortals, which are clearly not factual events.

It may be based on real person who existed once in history, but does not mean all tales including his name are factual.... what are you arguing for?

Btw it's a bit off topic now. Better to open a new thread about "8 immortals" if you wanted to continue.

Religious Daoism is older then Nei Dan some 1000+ years.Look when Tian Shi Pai and Shang Qing Pai are formed and look that first nei dan school Nanzong Pai is formed in XI-XII century.So I dont know how your calculation goes.

 

Can you provide source about when these schools were formed?

As far as I see it, and not just talking about Daosim.. religion seems to be degradation of Spiritual practices, and losing the original purpose, focused all on ritual and or worship.

Thanks for Ge Hong source, I'll check it when I have time.

......remember founder of your Yu Xian Pai, Immortal Master Ma Danyang was bald and grey.

 

Any proof about it? Or just based on paintings from artists imagination?

If Iron Crutch Li is folklore then all 8 famous Immortals are folklore and among them are Zhongli Quan and Lu Dong Bin.

 

Really? Locgical fallacy..

I can write story about Ormus with all beautiful tales and fantasies, but are they factual or just tales...

I said the stories of 8 immortals are folklore. Not that Ludongbin and others never existed.

LaoZiDao,

 

please remember that Immortals can change not only name but also how they look.According to signs you mention Immortal Master Lao Tze(Tai Shang Lao Jun) is not Immortal as he is all gray and bald.

 

Please read hagiografies of Immortals by master Ge Hong to see how Immortals can look and what are real signs.On some privous topic I mention one secret indication which canont be faked.

 

Iron Cruch Lee is interesting case.....

 

Ormus

A few things.. Iron Crutch Li is folklore and the story about him has no practical sense in Alchemy - ie it's a fairytale. 8 immortals stories are just fairytales.. of course they can contain some basic lessons and some essence of Daoism, but it's nothing to go by for talking about Alchemy in a serious scientific way.

About Ge Hong, do you have any links to translations of these texts, or any excerpts you can share?

About Laozi, they're not photo's by the way, they are paintings, and only the artists interpretation. I've asked about this long ago to Teacher(s) of mine and have been told it's basically because of people's misconceptions and lack of understanding / lack of deep connection to the Tradition. And not just this but it could be a thing of respect to the name "old Master" etc.

Also, referring to him as Tai Shang Lao Jun, is connecting to religious Daoism which was formed later and has not much in common with Neidan (Traditional Daoism) as I understand.

Hi Ormus, see below in bold: 
 

Dear LaoZiDao,

 

1.According to which classic source he dont look like Immortal?
 

It's my own opinion according to what I have learnt being a student of a few Masters and so on. You can check about 'not having grey hair' and also 'no requirement for food and water' at high levels in Alchemy, especially if you're talking about Dixian and above level (Shenxian / Tianxian etc). But there is clear signs on his face which show bad health condition IMO, maybe you can sense it or maybe you cannot..

I saw a few photos of this so called Liuhuayang eating food as usual man, has grey hairs, health condition does not look to great as mentioned above.  I also saw pictures of his Master - who looks old and withered. So there is a quite a few things as far as I see it, that give many hints about his achievements.

 

Can you show us some other photo of real Immortal?
 

No I cannot provide a photo, I doubt there is many (if any) photos leaked of Xian's. Usually they are hidden and private. If you saw some you're lucky Its not really something that is spread around the internet.

 

2.As I know you are Longmen Pai who started to study under WLP-YXP.But If I am wrong I am sorry.

Right, I am studying Yuxianpai, but I am not a WLP student at all. If what you mean by 'WLP member' is actually student of "Daode Center' then sure. No need for apologies  

 

3.I dont know Chinese,can you write on English what is his real name?

I don't know Chinese either, but it's not hard to get Pinyin from 普光 - please see here

 

Are you sure that he is not Master Liu?

I am quite positive about it personally, and really, for me it makes no difference to anything if it is or is not.

Did you hear that Immortals change names for several times?

 

Sure

 

I didnt have fantasy I just think about website posted here and there is this info.

 

Can you provide link from which you bring photos?

Literally put this in google "普光" and go to images, and you will see plenty of images. ^ check link above

 

Ormus

Dear Lao ZiDao,

 

thank you in advance.

 

I mention WLP members because you are the one and you express scepticism that this person can be Master Liu Huayang.

 

I am not member of WLP but respect the school and its doctrine about Immortality.So if we belive that Master Liu Huayang realised Yang Shen then it is not strange that he can materialise his body and agree that others make photos with him.On this photos we see him in Chan Buddhistic robes and among Chan monks which is also in accordance with his past.The same website show other Chan Masters and text describe their inner cultivation.

 

Ormus

#1 The signs on this man's face shows nothing similar of what a genuine Master who has achieved any decent level in Daoist cultivation. 

#2 I am not a WLP member, you're mistaken.

#3 I don't have skepticism, I know the persons real name. Here is the name: 普光 (普光老和) (sorry to spoil the fantasy's of it being Liuhuayang  )

Ok maybe it is bs.But please provide the link from which you post the photos.

 

I belive in Immortals and dont know why Wu Liu Pai members are so sceptical?

 

He cant be proclaimed impostor or bs until it is proven to be guilty of fraud.

 

Ormus

 

p.s.Can someone other find the link from which this photos are taken?

It's google images.

I'll get a link for you shortly.

What about wlp members..?

So Alexey or anybody here related to WLP and others. Do I practice ming or not? My stages or manifestations.

 

1) Starting ming practices, after couple seconds to one minute. Deep and great heat and warming but not attacking fire. Sweating a lot like I would run a miles, everything wet. (This can be consider supernatural as it no way you can sweat that much and be "hot" without burning yourself)

2) When fire will settle up, then emptiness no thought without effort appear. Mind clear.

3) After sometime flicking white lights appears when closed eyes. It's suppose to be yuan qi in action, yes? (from what I understand)

 

That's where manifestations stops and I close my "ming session" as it takes some time to get the "ming" rolling.

This is all common post heaven things...

Dear LaoZiDao,

 

can you provide source link for photos you posted?

It looks like Liu Huayang from privous website.

 

Ormus

It's not liuhuayang.... lol. The site is bs. Obviously.

Is this website realy somehow related to Wu Liu Pai in China?

 

http://www.dycndg.com/

 

I see they show photos of Masters Liu Huayang and Wu Shouyang.

 

Looks like the owner of website visited all mayor Nei Dan schools in China and have photos with many famous Masters.

 

There is no name of owner nor his e-mail but all is highly interesting!

 

Ormus

Is this website realy somehow related to Wu Liu Pai in China?

 

http://www.dycndg.com/

 

I see they show photos of Masters Liu Huayang and Wu Shouyang.

 

Looks like the owner of website visited all mayor Nei Dan schools in China and have photos with many famous Masters.

 

There is no name of owner nor his e-mail but all is highly interesting!

 

Ormus

Photo's of Liuhuayang, you honestly believe this is photo of Liuhuayang?

http://www.dycndg.com/?page_no=43〈=0&show_case=

I saw that you were typing and then stopped.

Is this person supposed to have the knowledge to replenish his yuanqi or even is supposed to have created the Elixir of Life?

And is he the source of the knowledge you claim to have about these things?

 

Because I investigated the uploaded photos of him on your website very carefully,

especially the last two photos in his gallery,

and I encourage the other thedaobums members to do the same,

especially those people who believed your claims!

Link:

http://www.laoziacademy.com/about/master-dong-yang/

It's not my website. I was a previous student of him, yes. But quite sometime ago.

Typing then stopped? Not sure what you are talking about

It's not my duty to prove your claims,

it's yours.

And so far, no proof or evidence was given that people after birth receive yuanqi through some obscure continuous transmission from som obscure source until they are 17 years old! I call BS!

It's your fate not mine. I'm not here to prove you anything. If you want to study Daoism you will check such sources and gain something useful, grow your knowledge and so on. If not, then it seems you're just interested in useless arguments and internet trolling.. You obviously don't want to learn anything by your tone.

Obscure source, right... lol.

So, in your opinion the fact that he doesn't believe in human immortals proves that he is a bad person?

Who said anything about a bad person?

Your misinterpretation of what does De mean.. I guess.

We all have things to work through, develop, improve and so on, some more than others, it's nothing about good or bad.

It is not logical at all, you are trying to save a theory with an incomplete understanding by making up empty claims, but not by giving logical explanations and arguments.

Where is the yuanqi coming from that the person allegedly receives continuously after birth until he is 13-17 years old and how exactly does this prolonged receiving of yuanqi take place?

It's you who is demonstrating lack of understanding..

Firstly you can look at how does the human grow from child to teenager, what changes in physiology happen, why they happen, at which point is the height of Yang reached, and when does this Yang start to decline, and why.

There are no immortal humans walking around, aside from some tales that they exist. So we can safely conclude that it's not possible to replenish yuanqi in a meaningful way.

 

Life extension/maximization is possible but that's it. There are no secret techniques. Anyone who claims there are is lying.

 

IMO people should use all the esoteric methods they can to prepare themselves for what comes after death, kind of like soul planning. I wouldn't bother focusing all my efforts on preserving this specific body.

There are more than tales that exist, reserved for people within Daoists circles. Obviously you're not in such circles and so you have narrow point of view because of your lack of opportunities, lack of De, dirt in heart, blocks, and so on. Just because you didn't have such a chance, does not mean that you can claim someone is lying.

But you're right, Xians are generally not walking around amongst society, they cultivated years to be able to finally leave it and have no reliance on it.

Last thing, goal is not about preserving body, it's _a stage_ in the process of transformation from human to Xian. Later, even for immortals..the body is transformed or "discarded" in final stages.

Obviously Wu Liu Pai and Yu Xian Pai understanding about 9 years of sitting and other symbology is totaly diferent from Longmen Pai and Zhong Pai.

 

You knew Longmenpai is ancestor of Wuliupai, right?

You mentioned "meditation", which words in Chinese do you mean here? (That can be checked in classics about Neidan).

Leading questions:

My opinions:

 

 

1. Is yuanqi finite?

Yes

 

2. And especially in mothers when this energy is passed to the foetus, will the mother suffers a loss of her yuanqi?

Yes, nothing is free (everything costs Yuanqi, as in every human activity). The bigger the task, the more Yuanqi is spent.. so to speak.

 

 

3. From the perspective of TCM, is yuanqi irreplaceable and therefore unlikely to be replenished? There are qi-tonic herbal formulations specifically for mothers after child-birth and what qi is being tonified if it is not yuanqi? However, if it is yuanqi that is tonified and strengthened, then it can also be replenished.

As I understand, TCM can replenish and/or tonify houtian (post-heaven) Qi only.

Yuanqi cannot be replenished by TCM / Qigong or any other post-heaven methods. Though, Qigong and TCM (good health) can reduce the spending of Yuanqi (sick body spends more Yuanqi).

What is being tonified by such tonics would be houtian Yangqi, not Yuanqi.

Yuanqi can be replenished, but it cannot be understood by ordinary man, it's why classics stress the need for a True Teacher to guide student through the process, stage by stage.

In addition to LaoZiDao's recomendation, here's an interesting documentary looking at it from TCM point of view:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yaflvJngxBM&t=38s

Nice video about houtian energies. Thanks.

You can get further clarification here about Qigong vs Alchemy: http://all-dao.com/heavenly-circle.html

As I understand that 'yuanqi' is the energy for want of an English term that is passed from mother to foetus. And that this energy (primordial?) is stored in the kidneys. As the child grows, this yuanqi diminished unitl it expired and death occurs. In Chinese culture, one of the ways to prolong life is to enhance this yuanqi. At this point, I was given to understand that this yuanqi cannot be enhanced nor replenished and so, systems of qigong are invented and institutionalised to nurture the alternative system of neigong (which later was renamed as qigong).with the sole purpose of improving health and hence, longivity. What prompted this post is the readings I had in this TDB about replenishing yuanqi, about nei and wei dan systems which I find fascinating. I'm still learning guys, so be kind.

If you have not read these, I recommend to:

http://all-dao.com/essence-taoist-alchemy.html

http://all-dao.com/difference-qigong-alchemy.html

Is it the Taoist concept that the spirit remains after death of the body? I thought it is more to Buddism. And again, it seems like MCO does not help significantly to become an immortal...

Agree, Yin spirit remaining after death is definitely popular in Buddhism. But even then, many people didn't even achieve achieve such things like "astral travel" etc, but they think they have. Travelling in their fantasies.