ShinRa

 

Yes, energy can be stored but not for long. Eventually, the energy stored in a battery will be discharged. Beside, if we are talking about the energy in the human body. If it has not been used, it will be gone in seconds.

So fat and glycogen doesn't count?

 

The hypnagogic state can be fun to play with, but I've read some studies on concentration meditation and they seem to say the mind is going the other direction. A study on Tibetan monks reported some of the highest frequency brainwaves ever recorded.

 

EDIT: I got some links:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_wave

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43006-2005Jan2.html

Yea I think that's the product of mindfulness, which is what some consider an aspect of higher consciousness

I'd be careful with experimenting with Gamma though! For many reasons gamma is great but I believe it would be far too much for beginners to handle...heh.

Aim for Theta brainwaves or the Hypnagogic state. You can get a feel for it pretty easily by using brainwave entrainment although what Kajenx said is best for gaining the skill to do it alone.

How about using one's Jedi-mind-influence powers to become a powerful politician and make government leaders actually do their jobs and stop destroying our rights and freedoms, stop the wars and definitely stop the suppression of human capabilities...

Can someone please help me find the news reports about the scientific researcher who came out recently saying how they are paid to produce (or change the paperwork to) the specific results the funding party wants? It is only about a month old, but I can't seem to find it now.

Ah, I wish I could find it also! This type of thing is very common with companies paying for their own studies to be done...like...companies that create vaccines for example...also heard about this happening a lot in China.. :-/

Honestly, if you want power.....asking about it on TTB will do you no good. Most people here either tell you something like "You want power(s)?!? NO NO NO! You should cultivate compassion, kindness,love and a good heart!! All that other stuff is soooo not spiritual!"...

 

I started meditation when I was in juvenile hall at 15 years old...I didn't gain any real abilities trying out MANY Qi Gong systems and Yoga meditations until I started investigating things on my own,piecing together whatever knowledge I could get from many ancient systems and practices...and finally, learning from a YOUNG shaman(shaman is not the correct term but it's what most westerners call them other than witch doctors) with great CONTROL over his abilities.

 

So what does this have to do with your question? Well, to actually gain any abilities you must first gain awareness of your own energy and how it moves and functions inside of you. To do that, it requires getting into a deep meditation which means NO breath regulation or visualization (these things keep your brainwaves close to the alpha and beta ranges which obviously is not going to allow you to go deeper). Once in a trance/trance-like state (hypnagogic might be the proper term), the mind is quiet,with absolutely NO thoughts and you'll have enough clarity to really feel your energy working..you'll feel strong vibrations or what may be considered "strong" at this point at least. Another marker for being in this state is the ability to "see" through your eyelids! This is extremely common for those who actually make it to this state...

 

But anyways, in that state is when all the training truly begins. Get to that state first THEN put your awareness on your LDT or Astral projection...etc..

This meditation is in SFQ btw, Chunyi Lin calls it "going into the Emptiness" I believe. It's also in Longmen Pai but called Yin Xian Fa. It is obviously called different names in different systems but that meditation is where it all truly begins!

If you wanna know what Yin feels like then get into a very deep state...something along the lines of the lower theta or delta brainwaves, then put your awareness (if you managed to not fall asleep and maintain your awareness) on your organs..there is a subtle force squeezing or better yet "holding together" everything. I can't feel Yin directly but I can feel its effects on my body and its various parts/"forms". Maybe others might have fortunately learned methods to actually control Yin

First off, stop thinking that you fit this description of whatever Drew said and look at it as though your body is doing things to make you aware of something that needs fixing. For example, if you eat something your body can't digest properly for whatever reason, you may have a bunch of symptoms as a result....like rashes, itching, swelling of the throat...etc. to let you know it cannot handle the substance. In your case it may be an issue with your nervous system (not trying to diagnose you here). So to consider yourself something based on an opinion of someone you don't know is nowhere in your best interest.

IME, visualizations and breathing practices can create feelings/sensations but they aren't permanent nor do they leave any lasting results. What gave me a serious increase in power and understanding of what energetic cultivation is all about, was learning how to use barely any effort to get into a state of consciousness where there are absolutely no random thoughts/mental chatter but very powerful awareness and clarity..sort of like going from sunshine to laser beams.

 

-edit: forgot to write that within this state of consciousness is where your true work begins as far as internal alchemy and also realizing the effects of yin qi and yang qi and how they function within your body.

Haha, what you're talking about has actually nothing to do with Qigong or Taoists/Taoism but rather people in general. This is the internet and a forum for discussing things related to the spirit/energy/martial arts/etc. There's always going to be less people actually doing the work and far too many people (like the mo pai tards and others who believe they've "leveled up" past masters *cough cough*) just reciting crap they read on the internet and in fantasy books.

Lmao! Yeah that's true, the mo pai tards never cease to amuse me haha and maybe I'm being a bit too critical since this is only the internet and a forum for discussion like you said. The people reciting this crap and/or constantly showing their "intellectual elitism" pretty much prompted the creation of this thread hehe.

I assume you don't know this hence the reason for creating this thread...

 

But there are 5 different types of Qigong practice.

 

Religious Qigong

Scholar Qigong

Medical Qigong

Enlightenment/Spiritual Qigong

Martial Qigong

 

This means not all Taoists have to be interested in - let's say - Martial Qigong for instance. They don't want to fight, so they might pick up Religious and Enlightenment Qigong. Or maybe they're interested in all of those above but tend to dwell on one more than the other.

 

Different strokes for different folks.

Could've sworn Qigong was Qigong (energy work/discipline) and I'm aware of everything mentioned...I was talking about others getting swamped in the philosophical and theoretical aspects of Taoism to the point of not doing or barely doing Qigong in any form. Like, for example, there are those who experience phenomenon and then there are those who talk about these phenomenon but have barely or never experienced any of what they speak of.

Have you ever wondered about how Buddhist hear "oms" and see Buddhas while Taoists see Taiji symbols and Taoist Immortals?

 

What about Christians seeing Jesus during meditation experiences?

 

Do you think that it is possible that the very things we believe and practice such as direction of energy currents, energy interactions, processes, deconversions, transmutations etc. may all be subject to the same state of illusory reality, biased by the very things we study?

 

How come Taoists don't experience Ida and Pingala in the same way the Buddhists do?

 

Is it possible that many of the things during practice happen because this is the reality we have created?

 

Can a lot of these interactions simply be mental illusion?

All just form realm illusions?

 

I wonder, how objective are we really in our experiences or is everything we feel just what we have programmed ourselves to expect will happen?

 

How much of what we perceive to happen during practice is of absolute reality and how much is a formulation of the 6th consciousness?

You know what, I think all of it is an illusion but some "paths" just work better for certain individuals so they'll be subjected to whatever is included in that "path". Certain things though, IMO, are called different names and have slightly different explanations for them but represent the exact same thing..

Well, Taoism has two sides, one is philosophy and the other is religion. Taoist beliefs begin with the philosophy then religion. Thus without the basic knowledge of the philosophy, then there would be no religion. Some people only study the philosophy without involving with the religion. However, they do believe in good health, so they practice Chi Kung from the advice given from the interpretation of the philosophy. The Taoist philosophy cannot be explained in one or two words. That is why some will get caught up in those aspects and sit around arguing and debating what is what instead of actually performing the practice itself and taking something so simple and making it unnecessarily complex.

 

"To be integrated with nature is like gently floating in a river,going wherever it takes you"...was not "to overcome nature is to change the river you're floating in. (What I mean by overcoming/defying nature is very subjective!)"

 

In the Taoist philosophy, integrate with Nature means to blend in with Nature instead of overcome Nature nor change the river you're floating in. Instead, a Taoist will be assured that the river was not disturbed in any way and leave it the way it was before if ever possible. Taoists are naturalists which do not want to interfere with Nature but let Nature take its course. The philosophy was known as 無為(WU Wei). We had quite a few long discussions about Wu Wei, in order, for people not to misinterpret it. Most people interpreted by its superficial meaning which lead them 10,000 miles away in their understand and way off basis.

 

 

I understand and agree with what you're saying but to "let nature take its course" is IMO not applying the "will" or being a bit too passive. I see plenty of Christians and other religious people saying EVERYTHING was by God's will even though they obviously made these "events" happen on their own accord, and will forfeit their own "will" to become passive in life because "everything is God's will"... The reason why I oppose this idea is because of a serious illness I had earlier in life and if I would have let nature take its course and didn't oppose this "natural" illness I would have been dead by now. Maybe this doesn't make me a complete Taoist (whatever that means) but I feel like we have control over the course Nature takes...why? Because we are intelligent beings that are apart of the structure of nature just like our cells are intelligent and are apart of the structures our bodies..we have the power and every right to change its course as necessary. Love your posts btw, they give much food for thought. Thanks.

I follow the teachings of Lao Tzu because I believe they are the key to living a harmonious life. If you are in harmony with the world around you, what's the use in burning paper by touch, or holding your breath for 30 minutes? A man in harmony has everything he needs, so for me the philosophical and practical applications are far more important than the esoteric energy practices.

 

Aaron

That's something definitely worth living up to, living in harmony with the world around me is one of my major goals. Thanks for sharing

Exactly - it all boils down to that.

The only response I'll give to that - it is nothing that anyone can tell you, show you, explain, or capture in words.

It transcends the conceptual mind.

You must see it for yourself.

Lot's of methods to try and help, none are guaranteed and some have no need of method.

Good luck with your practice!

Haha, will do! Thanks!

I practice all phases of Taoist Arts because it is awesome. The impact of practice in my life has allowed me to transcend beyond normal conditioning of mind and my body has benefited beyond mortal or normal degeneration.I don't care anymore about debate and intellectual concepts I just do IT. Positive practice, positive results in all levels of existence and non existence.

Truly excellent.

"nature" has what could be called a great many scales or laws...

 

Thus the scale and law of "the One" is different from the scale and law of "the Two", "the Three" and so forth on to the scale and laws of the "ten thousand", further what can happen or is lawful and real say under the scale and law of "the three" is not the same as what can happen or is lawful and real under scale and law of the "ten thousand". Another analogy: what works or lawfully applies to a single dimensional framework does not apply to what works or lawfully applies in a 3 dimensional framework... I hope that helps logically explain how what may seem mystical is really just the working of various laws in their related dimensions. (dimensions which are not limited to just the physical realm!) Btw, the deeper or more foundational laws do not break the more convoluted iterations of laws in creation but they do have the lawful power to supersede them in certain cases since they are closer to the root. (if or when needed per deeper wisdom)

 

Also "nature" could be said to flow in two ways, out from the root and also in returning to it... and those two ways have two different flows. Thus the saying, "go with the flow" needs certain qualifications.

This is incredibly thought-provoking and helps give an understanding of why possibilities are...possible. Reminds me of mathematical formulas and programming software for example...if X=false then allowLevitation=true...awesome.

 

 

I don't really consider my self an -ist of any sort so ignore my response if you're only interested in folks who consider themselves Daoist.

 

I do practice Daoist meditation methods, qigong, and internal martial arts.

For me it started with the martial arts and qigong. Then my teacher offered to teach me meditation methods and it changed my life for the better. So now, the martial arts have become secondary to the spiritual practices.

I am doing it to improve the quality of life for myself, my family, and those around me.

I'm doing it because once exposed to even a small glimpse of truth, nothing else is quite as appealing.

The lies and ignorance that we are immersed in become more and more obvious and one prefers to be closer to truth.

 

"they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself."

I disagree with this assertion. This is a common misconception. The Daoist is looking to come closer to and assimilate with nature and her cycles and laws. Anyone looking to master nature, overcome nature laws and so forth, is not Daoist, IMO. Proper practice and application can give the appearance to the uninitiated of super powers but that is a natural side effect of the methods and no one masters, overcomes, or is outside of our true nature.

The truth is very appealing indeed..

What I mean by "master nature" is fully assimilating with nature, not master it in the way one would master a martial arts technique or become the master of an animal. I agree that alot of these powers are natural side effects and not necessarily overcoming/defying nature (which again is very subjective based on one's perception of the phrase). My question then, is what is our true nature?

Yeah. Please remember too that I am the Materialist of the board. There are lots of Mystical and Spiritual folks on the board. I'm just trying to make sure there is a little bit of balance.

All good! It's necessary to have someone bring you back to reality sometimes, I need it myself at times. Thanks for that.

haha, yep. Intuition- the deepest, truest "pulse" that I can "hear" at the moment.

 

Balance...Hmm..Yes. Balance as a verb, though. An action. Its something that I dont want to "get". its something that I do. Create. Like dancing.

 

I enjoy your question! Its important, I feel. Sometimes its easy to fall into a lull and questioning what we are really doing can help.

Like dancing..haha well put, and I'm glad you enjoy my question! To let Taoism become another mundane thing in one's life is like stripping an animal of its instincts.

 

If you think about it, we often, in our practices "defy" nature. To be more precise, its closer to Reversing Nature.

 

Our bodies do what they do. Well, we learn Cultivation Methods to CHANGE that. Nature is already doing its thing within us and we want to change HOW it does that.

 

Sure, the goals are usually to bring more harmony and such. Still we are changing natures course. We do it all the time, as humans.

 

Another way is thru "Jing" or sexual energy retention/ sublimation. For men, the natural course is for all that energy to be ejaculated into the woman, or anywhere really, for the purpose of passing genetic code/ life force onto the next generation.

 

This happens to be done at the expense of the males life force.

 

Well, we alter that! We Reverse Nature and channel that energy inwards. Instead of expending it towards the next generation, expending our life force in the process, we reverse that process to use the energy to expand our cultivation and growth.

 

Some thoughts.

 

Peace

THIS ^^^ is what prompted me to create this thread..

Ah, 3bob, so you want another discussion, do you> Hehehe.

 

There is more knowledge than your or my brain could ever come close to consuming. At some point we need to say, "Stop! That's enough."

 

Yep. That is from the TTC. Do you really believe the way it is translated? I suggest that would not be good.

 

Expose yourself to a tiger in the wild and you will likely die, especially if you try to pet some females little cubs.

 

Try to go for a ride on a wild buffalo. I promise you, you will not have a happy day.

 

Expose yourself to the enemy while in battle and I promise you that it will be the last thing you ever do.

 

There is room for death in every living thing. No exceptions. Period.

 

The way that part of Chapter 50 should be understood, IMO, is that the wise man never exposes himself to these dangers. He is totally aware of his surroundings so he does not make himself visible to these dangers. Logic dictates that we read the TTC with our logical mind first. Then, if you feel frisky go ahead and venture into the implied mysticism. But while you are doing that don't forget the logic of "reality".

 

Interpretation is everything. We are not spirit beings such that if a sword is thrust into our mid-section it will do no harm. Such and act would likely cause us to die.

 

Yes, I still watch my butterflies but I know that I cannot fly. Illusions and delusions are some tricky things. Sometimes they cause no harm, other times we venture into great danger.

 

But have you read my response and considered its validity?

 

Indeed, and it's extremely valid. There are alot of mystical writings with plenty of metaphors that actually have a solid, logical basis behind the mysticism. IMO, the mysticism provokes our inherent creative side but without logic to clarify/objectify it and provide a way to apply it in reality would be delusional(and sometimes dangerous).

Nice reply. I pretty much agree with you this time. You are wanting to go places to find your truths whereas I have been to most of those places and if I found no support for a particular thought I figured it wasn't worth investigating any further.

 

My main reason for my initial response was to speak to the concept of nature and how we all must live within its realm. Sure, we can change the course of a river, if it is a small one. The Mississippi River doen't much care what man tried to do to it. It just keeps rolling along.

 

Sure, continue your search, by all means. But I suggest that you don't accept stuff without proof. Pretend you are from Missouri, the "Show Me" state.

Thank you and I appreciate the wisdom of your words! I totally agree we all must live within nature especially knowing we're apart of it anyway. I definitely will pretend I'm from Missouri lol, proof is mandatory.

 

 

1. America. it gets in the way of reality and holds you short of gunpoint expecting you to do things its way.

 

2. we're all here on TTB because we have literally nothing better to do with ourtime than be on the forum.

 

We probably cant afford to do better than this, or lack the proper guidance to go someplace where we can accomplish better.

 

 

Maybe we just plain lack knowledge of where else we even CAN bother to spend an effort learning...

 

 

But most of all, americans are here to show off their intellectual elitism and "out philosophize" each other.

 

 

I'm here because i hope to find a pointer of the way... a sign, a marker, a person, anything or anyone that can guide me to a tribal community that i dont have to think about the outside world ever again, ever have to worry about fraud, injustice, taxation, murder, or theft. never have to immerse myself in the sickness of civility...

 

 

I am here in pursuit of a delusional hope that i could ever find contentment in this world, or a path to lead me there so i can engage myself on the proper path, rather than everything i've experienced thus far.

 

 

 

 

Edit: added "or a path to lead me there so i can engage myself on the proper path, rather than everything i've experienced thus far"

 

 

Exactly! It's this intellectual elitism that's creating complexity out of something so simple. It's like trying to explain and argue all the many different properties of lava and why it's dangerous to walk in it because of XYZ, when we all know to simply....not walk in it.

 

My friend, I wouldn't say finding contentment in this world is a delusional hope, but rather it's delusional to those who don't want to find contentment in this world.

 

Sry, I didn't find your post about how you "diving in" on the actual qi qong aspects. Where is it?

I don't have any posts about me "diving in", nor did I ever say that I "dive in" myself or that I'm somehow superior if that's what you think I'm implying by my original post. I'm just here out of interest to question why my fellow Taoists became Taoists in the first place. Also, I posted my question hoping to rekindle the fire in those that have lately been too passive in pursuing their goals.

 

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/31189-we-should-no-longer-see-aid-as-an-active-livestyle-rather-a-natural-byproduct-of-our-own-spiritual-evolution/

 

Qi gong is another way to poke the bottle

That was real interesting..thanks for the link!

 

 

Mh,

It saddens me not to know certain things,

 

Btw, knowing certain things did not sadden the author of the Tao Teh Ching:

 

"...It is said that he who knows well how to live meets

no tigers or wild buffaloes on his road, and comes out

from the battle-ground untouched by the weapons of

war. For, in him, a buffalo would find no butt for his

horns, a tiger nothing to lay his claws upon, and a

weapon of war no place to admit its point. How is this?

Because there is no room for Death in him". From Chapter 50

 

Explain away the last line above if you prefer but such can not be done without leaving a core teaching given by Lao Tzu. (or as found in the TTC)

Awesome lol, my thoughts exactly. ^^

 

 

Going for myths, miracles & powers. Not any more. Maybe its a Buddhist thing, but the longer I'm in the game, the more my goal is inner peace, some longevity, feeling oneness. For me, Taoism as being closer to true nature; following its rules. Immortality and strangeness's like psychic powers aren't on the list, though dream work..lucidity/astral travel is.. so I guess I have a little of the bug in me after all.

Who knows, achieving your goal may give you those powers as a by-product...

 

 

How can anyone know who is "diving in" or not? An online forum is inherently intellectual in its means of expression.

 

I know what you are saying, and I have asked the same question, but becoming fixated on an answer to that question tends to limit the "diving in" potential to me.

 

Just from my own experience.

 

Most of my genuine "Taoist" responses to posts on the forum, are never expressed :-)

 

That's true! The reason I asked this question though was for two reasons, which one was of course out of interest/curiosity and the other was to indirectly make others remind themselves why they were doing it in the first place.

you mention experiencing oneness in your interests list

 

my interest in powers greatly decreased (though it is still there, just not a dominating force in my life) when i experienced oneness and realized that all of the powers i was experiencing were just manifestations of that truth

 

its like a magician telling you their secrets and then suddenly you don't care about the magic show

I agree, my interest in powers decreased as well after experiencing oneness...but then that truth lead to the realization of many other things like for example, what we consider "death" or for better clarification, "cause of death", is extremely subjective...

 

 

 

Taoist mainly dwell on the theoretical and philosophical aspects of Taoism is to have a fully understanding of their beliefs. Having a better understanding, to begin with, will be more meaningful and appreciative to perform the practice.

 

Understanding nature is not to master it nor overcome it but integrated with it. There are lots of people are practicing qigong/neigong by absorbing the source of energy from the universe as part of integrating with Nature.

Of course the theoretical and philosophical aspects of Taoism allows one to have an understanding of their beliefs, IMO it's fundamental. What I'm mainly getting at is how some will get caught up in those aspects and sit around arguing and debating what is what instead of actually performing the practice itself and taking something so simple and making it unnecessarily complex...

 

To be integrated with nature is like gently floating in a river,going wherever it takes you...to overcome nature is to change the river you're floating in. (What I mean by overcoming/defying nature is very subjective!)

 

 

Yes and No. I "listen" to what is in my experience at the moment. I also "listen" to my heart. What I feel is the truest expression of who I am. I move with my "true" heart expression. I work with the environment around me.

 

So I do both. I go with the flowing river and I walk on the land.

 

Sometimes I will do what has been presented to me if it feels "right". Other times I wont. It depends on what my internal sense "feels".

 

Often times that is just to wait, to enjoy what already is here.

 

Sometimes its to move, to create.

 

Peace.

 

Awesome my friend. I guess the simplest way to describe what you're saying is with the words "intuition" and "balance"..

 

 

You, I, nor anyone else will ever defy nature. You will not become physically or spiritually immortal. That is not the way the universe works. Learning how to live within nature (all inclusive) is the true goal of Taoism. To live this physical life in a manner that is worthy of the Heavens is what adds significance to the physical life.

 

Why am I doing it? I have learned how to lessen the conflicts I have in my 'real' life. I think that's a pretty good reason.

What I meant by "defy nature" is extremely subjective and is just my way of saying to "break the cycle(s)" or Samsara as others call it. To say someone won't become physically or spiritually immortal is saying the universe is limited and that it's impossible therefore making the universe finite... IME with -oneness-, I "felt" that the universe is infinite in potential therefore infinite in possibility. Nobody knows everything about the universe, I definitely don't but I do know there is infinitely more to learn and no way anyone can say "how it works" so I must question and learn what "death" actually is and not just accept the dictionary definition for it.

 

I agree living within nature is a goal of Taoism although there are lineages out there that would say living within nature is only the beginning... Your reason for doing it is shared by many and it's a wonderful thing how Taoism has released so many from the bondage of which we call "modern living"..

 

 

shinra, while we do have alot of philosophic dialogue here that sometimes goes to a ancient greek meets tao approach,

there are also many fine cultivation threads where members have shared experiences.

you have to dig a little deeper around here to find them perhaps, how are your archeological skilz?

on the cultivation threads you will find alot of book speak there too, but you will also find posts based on personal experience.

You're absolutely right, I haven't dug deep enough here to find the treasures of personal experiences on the cultivation threads so my archeological skills must suck lol. Thanks for the reminder, I'll definitely be reading up on alot tonight!

Those are all wonderful goals/ things to experience. I do feel that they can be done.

 

Since I have little real understanding or experience in regards to them, I leave them alone.

 

My intent now is just to become healthy. With the intent to "see" what those "things" are about and how to go about them.

 

So for now, what am I doing? What I can and what seems best for my current state. Building a solid foundation, transforming the basics- breath, body, mind, eating, etc.

 

I do know what you mean, though. We are capable of so much...how often do we become that? Not often, it seems...

 

Maybe some cannot achieve it, yet their nature has its own full expression and that is what they should go for, I feel..

 

Peace

Seems like you're the type of person who goes with the flow which is respectable and I feel like that "path" has its own benefits.. It may actually work better for you than others.. It's true everyone's nature has its own full expression and we should all flow with it, although, IMO we should guide it at times too

To start off, I mean no offense to anyone,their practice(s),goals and beliefs. I'm simply interested in why so many here on TTB will practice a system but then mainly dwell on the theoretical and philosophical aspects of Taoism, while not truly "diving in" on the actual qi gong/nei gong aspects which has enormous potential for so many things. For example, I see alot of people on here speaking in riddles and cryptic language and showing how intelligent they are regarding Taoist practices but never discussing how we can achieve great "things" called myths by modern man, miracles by the religious man and spiritual power by ancient man... What I'm truly questioning is... what are you all doing it for? I'm sure the ancients didn't become Taoists to philosophy and have intellectual debates, they wanted to understand nature...master it...and then overcome it..to no longer be bound to "cycles" and natural/universal laws but instead be outside of these "cycles" and above these laws...to be immortal! To defy aging and death(biologically and consciousness-wise) is to defy nature itself.

 

So again, what are you all REALLY doing it for?