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If you mean by “Theurgia” the Theurgia-Goetia in the Lemegetaon, no, but then the Dee material was my only attempt to procure manuscript material anyway. My purpose with the Dee material was to answer certain questions which could not be answered without it. I did however remain interested in Trithemius' Steganographia, in part because of the fact that of the arguments I proposed in this 1980 piece, the one relating Trithemius with with the Theurgia-Goetia was the weakest and also because there were aspects of the text and the technique which have relevance to to higher levels of what I call magical systemics then I am about to discuss here. Some may wonder, "what is magical systemics?" Well, it is the study, analysis and comparison of magical systems with the view to understanding their form and structure. This is no idle curiosity, the aim is to learn how to create magical systems. Now creating magical systems is not to be confused with “making them up”, the creation of a magical system involves the creation of a well formed, that is coherent symbol system that so accurately reflects the structure of the cosmos that it effectively mediates the power of the cosmos. The keys to it are all in Agrippa, but I am not saying anything more on the subject. Now to get back to my 1980 piece. In the post that began this exposition, I cited counter examples to the author's thesis about the Middle Ages and Renaissance. I wanted to strengthen my position with another argument. I realized that if it could be shown that a group of Renaissance magicians valued that "demonic travesty" the Goetia so much that they would use it as part of their own system, then my point would be even more strongly reinforced. The irony is that the Lemegeton from which the author to whom I was replying had taken the Pauline Art as an example of "enlightened" Renaissance Magic, appeared to be just such a text Enochian Magic entered the picture because it can be argued that formally, that is in terms of its form and structure, it is a nearly perfect system, representing as it does every important aspect of the Cosmos as conceived of in the Renaissance. On the surface the Lemegeton seems to be a rather haphazard affair, but if I could show that there really was a reason why these texts were assembled, that each contributed to a larger whole then, I could argue that the person or persons who brought it together had a reason for including each book. So, I had to examine and if possible prove several things, at least the follwoing and maybe more: That the Lemegeton was assembled in the Renaissance That it met the criteria of a magical system, though not a well formed one such as Enochian, because the individual texts are not as coherent as Enochian or as well interrelated. Finally as I looked at what was available to me I realized that it was possible to fix a likely source for the Lemegeton, existing in its present form as centered around Cornelius Agrippa, either as a direct group of students around him or as a group inspired by his writings. I will examine these in upcoming posts, but one of them the relative lateness of the Lemegeton, is generally agreed upon with few surviving manuscripts before the late 1500s. Arguing from earliest surviving manuscripts is not proof, but this was the case when I wrote and as far as I can tell, this remains the case. More next time.

Any well formed symbol system is useful for both passive uses, like divination, in which it reflects a train of events and for active purposes like magic, where it can be used to influence a train of events. The Tarot is excellent as a magical system, the average "magician" can hardly dream of all that is concealed in Western Geomancy as a form of magic, the same goes for Yi Jing, Mah Jong, and many other systems like that. I have experience with several of them,some for decades. They are worth the time and effort investigating.

i kept hearing the word 'tosser' in my mind: I am assuming that you mean "tosser" instead of a "keeper", if this is so this person is obviously very manipulative and is toxic just to be around, whether they possess any type of psychic power or knowledge. Obviously "tosser" is part of a pattern of denigration designed to make you feel that you are lucky he is only treating you like dirt. I cannot disrecommend Jason Miller's book too heartily, and yes I do mean don't read it. He is as far as I can tell a competent enough writer and practitioner, but I have never read his books and unless someone wants to pay me to read and review them I probably never will. I don't need them, and you don't need what Protection and Hex Reversal Magick has to teach, and unless you get deeply into the study and practice of magic, probably never will. Instead get yourself: Spiritual Cleansing by Draja Mickaharic and read it with what I have to say here in mind: You need to heal and grow yourself, until you dwarf spiritual pygmies like this troll.

sinansencer, Thank you for your interest. My interest and the basic ideas actually go back to the early 70s when I was intrigued by the idea of astrological magic and meditation inspired by the accounts of astrological images which I had read about in certain books. I was working with an artist and she recommended Nikcolaides The Natural Way to Draw. I found this interesting, but could never make the transition to really drawing, based on Nicolaides alone. One of his basic techniques, contour drawing such as demonstrated here: was useful as a meditation, but that was not enough. Watch this video and bear in mind the the comment by Scott32169 on the on the YouTube page: and review the instructions at the end of OldGreen's post on "Foundations of Magical Training" in the Hermetic and Occult sub-forum on visualization. Now think about how you could combine contour drawing with those instructions and you will get an idea of what I am talking about. I actually thought about posting something about this there, but while I have more spare time right now than usual, I am still not completely at leisure, so I put off posting. However, I wanted more, I wanted to be able to draw, so the project was put on the back burner until 1980 when I returned to the subject, either because of a drawing seminar which I attended or I attended the drawing seminar because I was interested again for some reason or other. In either case, the woman was good and I learned a lot. She said that soon a book would be published which would be very good and gave me the information on it. It turned out to be Betty Edwards' book, Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain. This turned out to be pretty much what I wanted and I had no trouble working out a system based on her book which not only helps with the necessary skills, but also turns you into a good artist, a double benefit and what I wanted. So if you are interested on a practical level you should get yourself a copy of Betty Edwards' book and then adapt it to purposes like the above referenced exercises. Be forewarned that, while the neurology was accurate at the time she was developing her material it is out of date and largely misleading at this time. In particular it is influenced by a strong cultural bias that has developed since around 1800 in the West which I call the Romanticism/Reductionism dichotomy which among other things distorts the relation between between "reason" and "intuition". This dichotomy is imported wholesale into her discussions of right and left brain functions and and their other correlations and is misleading. I became aware of this when I bought the new edition, my old one having long ago fallen apart, because I am preparing to teach again, though not magic per se, and needed to review her approach. When I first read the book, based on my knowledge of brain function their was no need to critique her approach, but now there is. The exercises themselves, however, are of great value and will pay off for anyone who undertakes them with meditative or magical discipline in mind. I hope this information is useful to you and anyone else who is interested.

Good old Draja Mickaharic! I used to recommend his Spiritual Cleansing to my students. Of course my treatment of it was all within the context of the first book of Agrippa's Occult Philosophy. I've only read his early books from the 80's Spiritual Cleansing and A Century of Spells and that some time ago. Still the natural magic procedure which he recommends have more value than people would think. The natural world is full of magic.

Just a quick note to summarize, expand and correct a bit. The popularity of the concept of Guardian Angel in modern Neo-magic is due to Aleister Crowley. Crowley was dependent on his knowledge from Macregor-Mathers. Crowley's original attempt at the Abramelin operation was in 1900, not 1907 and its interruption was hardly mere organization matters with Mathers. It was in point of fact the "Great Schism" of the Golden Dawn which lead to the founding of the Stella Matutina and the continuance of the Golden Dawn as the Alpha et Omega. Delilo is using Crowley's The Vision and the Voice as a guide, the vision of the eighth "aethyr", just one of thirty, which is derived from the Golden Dawn's version of the Enochian Magic of John Dee, Edward Kelly and their Spiritual Interlocutors. Part of Crowley's experience with the 30 Aires was in London Circa 1898 and the rest was in the Sahara, circa 1909, where he and Victor Neuberg were doing odd and peculiar things. The link which provides to the Wikipedia article seems on my cursory examination to be a satisfactory introduction to the matter, however the notion of a Guardian Angel is hardly unique to Abremelin as Agrippa writes on the matter in Book III Chapters XXI and XXII of his Occult Philosophy. In the Grimoire of Armandel, also translated by Mathers, there is mention of a Spirit, Camael, who. "giveth unto you a perfect knowledge of your Genius, who will have the power to grant you everything that you shall demand of him." (P. 42). Seems a little easier than Abramelin's approach. The topic of Guadian Spirit was also an important one in Platonism, as according to Plato, Socrates professed to have one which guided him. The late middle Platonist Apulius of Madura, best know for his Metamorphoses or the Golden Ass, also wrote a work On the God of Socrates examining this in the light of Middle Platonic ideas. Porphyry in his life of Plotinus recounts the following in relation to an evocation of Plotinus' guardian spirit: "In fact Plotinus possessed by birth something more than is accorded to other men. An Egyptian priest who had arrived in Rome and, through some friend, had been presented to the philosopher, became desirous of displaying his powers to him, and he offered to evoke a visible manifestation of Plotinus' presiding spirit. Plotinus readily consented and the evocation was made in the Temple of Isis, the only place, they say, which the Egyptian could find pure in Rome. At the summons a Divinity appeared, not a being of the spirit-ranks, and the Egyptian exclaimed: 'You are singularly graced; the guiding-spirit within you is not of the lower degree but a God.' It was not possible, however, to interrogate or even to contemplate this God any further, for the priest's assistant, who had been holding the birds to prevent them flying away, strangled them, whether through jealousy or in terror. Thus Plotinus had for indwelling spirit a Being of the more divine degree, and he kept his own divine spirit unceasingly intent upon that inner presence. It was this preoccupation that led him to write his treatise upon Our Tutelary Spirit (Enneads Three, Treatise Four, ZYD), an essay in the explanation of the differences among spirit-guides." I hope these quick notes are helpful.

goldisheavy, The applicability of a formal system to life is seldom obvious and the magic square of 3 is a formal system. Among other things is has a formal analogy to the matrices used to solve linear equations, but I am sure that I am only pointing out the obvious to you. It is also unique among the families of 'magic squares' in being the only one with one member and if I recall correctly also being symmetrical in all transformations. Now symmetry is important, for example: 'Some of the most basic aspects of physics follow from looking at symmetries. The symmetry under translations in space implies the conservation of momentum, while symmetry under translation in time implies the conservation of energy. The relation between these conservation laws and the symmetry transformation is much more direct in quantum theory than it is is classical mechanics.' Peter Woit, Not Even Wrong, p. 36 and more interestingly: 'The SU(2) transformation properties of a particle have become known as a particle's spin. This term comes from the idea that one could think of a particle as a spinning particle, spinning on some axis and thus carrying some angular momentum. This idea is inherently inconsistent for a number of reasons. While the spin is a quantized version of the angular momentum, there is no well defined axis or speed of rotation. Spin is an inherently quantum-mechanical notion, one that fits in precisely with the representation theory of the symmetry group SU(2), but has no consistent interpretation terms of classical physics.' ibid. p. 46 In other words formal mathematical systems could be seen to determine such macro properties as why tops spin, and such necessary phenomena as the conservation of energy and motion. Particle spin even explains why we have 'matter' and 'energy'. The magic square of 3 could be just such a formal mathematical system whose importance was discovered 2000 plus years ago and whose area of applicability happens to be to spiritual cultivation and a description of humanity's spiritual potential. The applicability of such systems to life is determined by their 'fruitfulness' and generations of Daoist practice could be used as an argument that this system is very fruitful indeed. I leave your other questions for another time, but the most important one has been addressed.

Daoist religious meditation/ritual is all based on a simple diagram of nine squares, with the numbers 1 through 9 arranged in it so that added horizontally, vertically, or on the diagonals always add up to 15. This is the simplest of a large family of mathematical objects known as magic squares. This is the basis of the famous Ho t'u diagram, many Tao Bums may know it as the basis of Nine Star Astrology, and in the West it is known as the the magic square of Saturn, part of a family of magic squares of from 9 to 81 squares associated with each of the Planets. This square becomes a means of organizing the primary symbols of Chinese Cosmology, such as the Five Elements, the Eight Trigrams, and the Nine Stars. In Daoist ritual it is combined with the Twelve Earthly Branches to give the basic plan of the ritual Dan (Tan) and is also the basis for the Mudras that the Daoist initiate makes with his left had and uses as part of his ritual and meditation. In these meditations Heaven, Earth and Man are united, for the five elements exist not only in the world around one, but in ones body as the five yin organs, in the earth as the five Directions and the Heavens as the five Planets. These five aspects of the elements are personified by the Emperors of the Five Directions. These Emperors are given a place within each of the Five Yin Organs as well as a space in the Dan, thus indicating the fundamental relation of similarity between man and the cosmos. The Three Pure Ones are the personification of jing, qi and shen and are to be found both within the Lower, Middle and Upper Dan of the initiate, but also along the North Wall of the Dan. Even the Ling Bao True Writs which are the talismanic basis of the meditation/ritual are planted in the cross quarters of Northeast, Southeast, etc. where the four earthly branches that correspond to earth, the Ox, the Dragon, the Ram and the Dog are to be found. This is in part what I refer to as the systematic basis of Daoist rituals and it is very precise. There is more to this systematic aspect but that gives an idea. When I first read about this in Michael Saso's Taoism and the Rite of Cosmic Renewal back around 1976 I was completely fascinated by it and saw ways that it might be integrated with another similar structure to which I had been giving much thought, the Temple patterns of the Golden Dawn initiatory system. They seemed to complement each other nicely since the Golden Dawn system is based on an East/West pattern and the Daoist system a North/South one. In any case such thoughts became the basis of my efforts to integrate Chinese and Western esoteric systems. For those not familiar with it the Golden Dawn was a group formed in the late 19th century, its best know members being the Irish poet William Butler Yeats, and the occultist Aleister Crowley. In one form or another it pretty much dominated the whole of the 20th century esoteric revival in the English speaking world, though Madame Blavatsky's Theosophical Society was to have a huge influence on a more popular level, making karma and reincarnation notions practically taken for granted by the 'new age movement'. See Charles Luk Taoist Yoga, p. 4, '...the wondrous light of (essential) nature which is symbolized by a circle which Confucius called virtuous perfection (jen); the Book of Change calls it the ultimateless (wu chi), the Buddha perfect knowledge (yuan ming), and the Taoists the elixir of immortality or spiritual light; which all point to the prenatal One True Vitality.' Qabalah is a huge subject some of which is very systematic and some of it not, but I was particularly referring to the Tree of Life as understood by the occultists of the Golden Dawn, of course their version has its roots in the Sepher ha Yetzirah, the Book of Formation which goes back to Hellenistic times.

I haven't reviewed all of these posts, so I hope that by posting I am not repeating anything. The Wikipedia article on Yidams is a fair point to begin on Buddhists aspects of the practice, and yes in "self Generation" you imagine that "you are a Yidam", but there are a wide variety of practices, and the practice is not exclusive to Buddhism. Doing a search for "deity yoga", the name for the discipline as a whole, will produce a lot of information. As I said the practice of assuming divine forms, or transforming into a deity is actually common, there are Hindu forms, Daoist forms, ancient Egyptian forms, and practices in Western Theurgy that involve such procedures. I myself practice the Ritual Daoist form of "Transforming into a Deity to refine Qi". Professor Jerry Alan Johnson has several examples of Ritual Daoist procedures for doing this in his books on Daoist Magic. ZYD Edit: Slight reformatting and replaced a wordy repetition of practices with procedures.

In regard to its scientific equivalent, this is my current opinion: (Emphasis added, ZYD) The closest modern conception to qi in this sense of “primary substance” would be the “energy of the vacuum”, though I personally like to think of it as a four dimensional “substance” that underlies Space/Time, Matter/Energy and to extend it to a biological context Consciousness/Body. This is based on simple Special Relativity and doesn't even involve us with “quantum weirdness” . . . Which brings us to this for more traditional Western correspondences: Aether would be closer to the Buddhist element of space/void, or the Hindu element of Akasha: While Aether has a long pre-history in Greek, the use of Aether as “fifth” element is specifically Aristotelian, and has to do with his theory of natural motion and in particular the natural motion of the “celestial spheres” which was a circular motion, so that the notion of circular motion is essential to the definition of Aether from Hellenistic times through the Nineteenth Century, where it survived because of such demonstrations of a naturally occurring circular motion that arises in magnetic and optical experiments, as the “ether” through which Maxwell's electromagnetic waves were supposed to propagate. This circular motion was discovered by the great experimental physicist Michael Faraday and first demonstrated in his: Faraday's Homopolar motor The Faraday Effect Its association with “void” and akasha is an artifact of late Nineteenth and Early Twentieth century speculation by Occultists influenced by the Theosophical Society. It is not necessary to skip forward to the Eighteenth Century, because Patristic Christianity, the shared basis of both modern Roman and Orthodox Christianity did not stamp out Hellenistic Philosophy, but assimilated it, as I have outlined in my discussion on Agrippa and the religious views of his time here: and in subsequent posts in that thread, which is a short enough thread that people can read the whole thing in an hour or less. The notion of “spirit” is an important part of Agrippa's explanation of and defense of magic as I have dealt with here: He chose “spirit” because it was an important part of the worldview of the time and not some obscure esoteric doctrine which might inspire the suspicion, and thus possible animosity, of his readers. first Christianity, and then later, post-Enlightenment scientific materialism: It should be clear from my further posts on Agrippa cited above, that pre-Reformation Christianity was not hostile to "pagan" learning, but on the contrary maintained and preserved it. Even early Protestantism had a side of it which preserved aspects of the traditional worldview through the Seventeenth and into the early Eighteenth Century. It was the reintroduction and revival of Epicureanism into European thought, starting circa 1600, which is the root of what became "post-Elightentmant scientific materialism", which is a long story in itself. Well this is a long post, but it at least outlines the various traditional Western correspondences to qi, from the hylo-morphism of Aristotle, where qi is primordial substance and thus part of everything, to its meaning of "vital force" or bio-energy, even its related senses of emotion are somewhat covered in this "spirited" discussion and into possible modern "scientific" correspondences.

I said in my previous post that I wanted to deal with some aspects of it in my post on Chapter xvi, well it's that time. The aspects that I wished to deal with here were mostly the examples given in Chapter xivi for the operation of the property of the Soul that extends itself into other things. Now remember first of all that the agency of this extension is the Spirit of the World and that the Spirit of the World will be the agency by which the “Vertues pass from one thing to another” in the this discussion of Chapter xvi, but first let me remind you of what I said above about the example given in Chapter xiv: Just to clarify, Gilbert is not attributing to Della Porta the mistake of thinking that diamonds hinder loadstones, but rather the discovery that it is false. It is rather the false idea that one can rub iron or steel on diamonds and magnetize them that Gilbert is accusing Della Porta of doing. Della Porta is possibly confusing the static electrical attraction that can develop from rubbing certain things on stones, such as amber, with a true magnetic attraction, the differences between which, were only being clarified in the Seventeenth Century. And now on to Chapter xvi: First I wish to emphasize the principle here which is that "souls" as the forms of things manifest "Occult Virtues" by which, ". . . they not only work upon all things that are neer them, by their Vertue . . . “, but also they, “. . . infuse into them a like power, through which by the same Vertue they also work upon other things . . .". So that whereas the previous chapter had spoken about a virtue of the diamond extend through the Spirit of the World interfering with the power of a loadstone to attract iron, this one puts forward another possibility founded in the Spirit of the World, that the virtue of one thing can be communicated to and infused into another thing, so that the second one now has the same power as the first, which is primarily illustrated by, “. . . the Loadstone, which Stone indeed doth not only draw Iron Rings, but also infuseth a Vertue into the Rings themselves . . .”. A very important pricinple for the practice of magic, and on that is called the “principle of contagion”, a principle mostly used as a means of connecting with someone or something that was once connected with them, to influence them, but as seen here can also be used to create an independent object with a power like that of the originating object. This is a perfect place to remind people of what I said here: So, bearing in mind what I said about the false doctrine of the diamond hindering the loadstone, let's look at Agrippa's “outlandish” supporting illustration for this chapter: This illustration, with its recommendation of wearing a prostitutes panties, and its implications of kinky cross-dressing, is about as outlandish as it gets! And of course it is open to all sorts of modern and purely reductionist psychological interpretations. The more conservative recommendation to use the mirror of a prostitute, also has psychological interpretations, but as an illustration of something becoming charged up, albeit unconsciously by the prostitute, would be far more in line with even Nineteenth Century theories involving objects being charged with animal magnetism. However, one needs to look at all of the illustrations and ask, what do these things have in common and how are they illustrative of the principles, what does a prostitutes panties have in common with, “. . . the halter wherewith a man was hanged . . ”, which would give either of them, “. . . certain wonderfull properties . . .”? Oh, and in case you are wondering "halter" in this case means the hangman's noose, and not another stylish garment with an implication of cross-dressing. Why did Agrippa chose these as illustrations of the principle that: Which, unlike the illustration of the diamond and the loadstone, is still an accepted part of science, though given a very different interpretation. A fact which needs careful consideration of another sort, such as, while it is obvious that it is a good illustration of the principle which Agrippa is putting forth, how would it be understood in terms of the worldview that Agrippa is assuming, and within that worldview, how would other aspects of it be understood, such as, “why don't copper rings become magnetized?”, or “is the fact that modern science explains the phenomena in a certain way fundamentally incompatible with Agrippa's worldview?”. It is only by asking yourself and answering questions like this, about those oddities of ancient learning that Agrippa uses to illustrate his principles, that you will be like Agrippa's judicious bee: And can also receive "no little profit, and much pleasure".

Based on my own experience Daoist teachings about the “Inner Gods” are not metaphorical, but are real and provided a level of integration in practice that goes beyond mere “energy” into the sphere of intelligent guidance of organic function. Case in point, in a transmission ceremony of the “Three-Five Surveyors of Merit”, i.e., the Three Pure Ones and the Five Virtuous Emperors, during the transmission of the Green Emperor of the East and the Liver, among other things, a woman complained of feeling extreme heat, like being in an oven, which dissipated after a few minutes. It turned out that this woman, a licensed acupuncturist, had very difficult menses, but the menstrual period immediately afterward passed without her even noticing it. Her subsequent periods were hardly noticeable, lacking pain from cramping, emotional distress and the heavy bleeding that her skill in acupuncture had not alleviated. The woman had not mentioned her difficulties before the rite and it was not done as any type of healing, rather as a ritual transmission for initiatory purposes. In short the “healing” was a spontaneous effect of the ritual and not any intended result, and as such indicates agency on the part of the Virtuous Green Emperor of the Liver. This is just one example I could cite of what seems to be more than merely an energy transmission involved in such rites. I mention this for information sake only and will not discuss the matter beyond this. Ritual Daoism, my preferred term for “Religious Daoism”, has its own equivalent of Deity Yoga and a wide variety of internal practices related to such “Internal Deities”. The origin of the teaching is in the Microcosm/Macrocosm relationship which is fundamental to both Daoism and Confucianism. While its origin in China is not completely clear it makes an early appearance in the work of Mencius in the Fourth Century BCE. It is also essential within the Western Traditions of Mysticism and Magic, where its origin is basically epistemology worked into a supporting ontology, metaphysics and cosmology. In other words it is not just new age woo woo, nor ancient Western or Chinese metaphorical jibber jabber.

It's only my guess, but I think Nungali is objecting to the planetary associations of the two squares, the square of four in Durer's work is usually associated with Jupiter and the warm, moist sanguine humor, while the square of three is associated with Saturn and the cold, dry melancholic humor. He could be pointing out part of the antidote to melancholic humor, but since there is only one, there are no others to compare and see if he continued the theme of looking to the curing or balancing humor. Maybe the symbol of the balance has something to do with that idea, or it could simply be Saturn's exaltation in Libra. The humors do appear in a few other Durer works, but not the magic squares.

It's funny you should mention Rife, my brother was very interested in him in the 70s. Regarding the paper that you linked, I just skimmed it, but found it very interesting, with many ideas that I have been thinking about for sometime. I can't go into much detail now, but I found the mention of E. T. Whittaker in the paper interesting, as I had read his A History of the Theories of Aether and Electricity, Vol. I and II, sometime back with considerable interest. I often considered unfortunate that he did not finish his projected Volume III. All of this has a great deal to do with my research into Mathematical Magic and how the classical magical tradition of Agrippa could provide a real framework for Radionic devices as I mentioned here: It will be interesting to see what Brian has to say about the paper.

I have had the goal of synthesizing Chinese and Western Esoteric traditions since circa 1970, today I routinely practice just such a synthesis which I find powerful and effective, and the power of which has been demonstrated to some people even some here on the Dao Bums. I don't have time to go into details right now, but suffice it to say, for now at least, that between what I prefer to call Ritual Daoism and Western ceremonial magic there is a high degree of complementarity and that a satisfactory structure for such a synthesis can be achieved, it requires going back to the "pre-modern" Western tradition of the Occult Philosophy of the Renaissance Hermetic Platonist, Cornelius Agrippa, rather then the proto-new age eclecticism of Aleister Crowley, but it can be done and I have spoken of it many times on the Dao Bums, including my introductory post here, as "Cornelius Agrippa meets the Golden Dawn in Medieval China", which for convenience sake I will repost here: Many people here who have read my serious posts must wonder about this business of “stand-up”, a reference to a comedy act, I attempt to explain of some it in the root post of my personal practice section, which regrettably, non Dao Bums cannot follow: Zhongyongdaoists Limitless Mischief Machine If I have time I will elaborate on the topic of this thread and on issues raised by the above.

I could say a lot about all of this from both Western and Chinese magic, but I don't have time right now. There have been many interesting observations here, but the business about light is important: Right at the beginning is something of great general importance “Light . . . is . . . a representation of the understanding”, thus light is not the understanding itself, but rather it is an image (“imago” in Agrippa's Latin is translated as “representation”) and it is “. . . diffused from the Mind of God into all things . . .”, in other words Light is not the understanding itself, but rather an emanation of that understanding that represents that understanding to imagination and sense. In other words Light in inner sense is definitely connected with very high entities, but it is an attribute of "representation" of them and is not their essence. Unfortunately appearing as Light is not limited to them and there are "deceivers" of a certain class who can appear clothed in glory and beaming love. Differentiating them from real ones is not always easy and as I said recently to a correspondent, "You are not really a real magician until you have vanquished your first Deceiver of Light". In other words, in general I agree with Spotless, and one needs to be very cautious in dealing with these matters. I apologize that this was posted in some haste and if I can I may be able to post more.

Yes, I have to second this, more information is needed, for example in his books on Daoist magic Jerry Alan Johnson describes a technique for creating "thought forms", the more usual Western term for something which might also be called a "mental sphere", by someone writing trying to translate a Chinese term for a mental construct used for magical purposes, or Wang Liping might be talking about who knows what else. So a little clarification like a quote that describes these in more detail would be helpful.

In Religious Daoism Xuanwu, the Emperor of the North is one of the most important deities. Mount Wudang is sacred to him and his was the Patron God of the Ming Dynsasty. He serves both the function of Daoist "Dharma" protector among other things he is very important in Daoist Thunder Magic, and also the Cosmological function of the God of Water, the North and the Kidneys. That's just the quick, short story. No time for more now.

My main reason for calling this "Plato and Platonism 101" is not merely to deal with Plato, but to point out how what is usually called Neo-Platonism, but which I prefer to call Late Platonism, and its mysticism, but also its relation to Theurgy and practical magic, so, lest people get overly bored with the presentation so far. To spice things up, I am throwing in the following: Part of the reference here is to taking the Republic as a treatise on the soul and not a book of politics and I pointed out in my first post, and it questions whether Laws should be so interpreted. In the Laws it is proposed to examine three “model” constitutions, the best, the second best and the third best. A lot of opinions about Plato's “political theories” are are really descriptions of the “second best” constitution, this is how Plato describes the Best: Aside from the question what does Plato mean by "That constitution which we are now engaged upon, if it came into being, would be very near to immortality" in describing the "second best" constitution, I think a good case could be made that the above description of the "Best" state in this way: "even things naturally “private” have become in a way “communized,” —eyes, for instance, and ears and hands seem to see, hear, and act in common,— [739d] and that all men are, so far as possible, unanimous in the praise and blame they bestow, rejoicing and grieving at the same things, and that they honor with all their heart those laws which render the State as unified as possible . . . In such a State,—be it gods or sons of gods that dwell in it,—they dwell pleasantly, living such a life as this." is part of the inspiration for Plotinus' discussion here: A state which I often refer to as "the Communion of all Souls". All great for the mystics among us, but for the magicians among us, here is a possible reflection of it in the Goetia: Is the Goetic Spirit Dantalian the "infernal reflection" of Plotinus' image of the "communion of all souls"? Probably just a coincidence. This is already long enough, and may even be to some, surprising enough, so I will end this post here, but over the course of these posts I will return to the various issues raised here.

This is why I said: The Beginning of the Nineteenth Century turns out to be an important divide, because it was here that the very real campaign of aggressive materialists managed to redefine "reason" and "rationality" in terms of a materialistic "reductionism", which resulted in the Romanticist revolt against "reason", which was not really "reason" as it had been conceived of for over 2000 year, but rather a reductionist imitation based on the revival of Epicureanism beginning circa 1600 and harnessing the "Mechanical Philosophy" of the Seventeenth Century as its attack dog. I could go into considerable detail about this and its deleterious intellectual effects, but the result is the type of anti-rational thinking that is characteristic both of the revivals of Western Magic and Alchemy in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries and of the exodus from the stifling materialism that became Western thought, to Eastern traditions, such as we see here on the Dao Bums. In a sense the Dao Bums is a refugee camp for people fleeing this Western reductionism, which they mistake for reason, which is why "reason" and "rationality" and "intellect" are all pejorative terms around here, even though if seen in their original senses, not their post 1800 senses, they would not be. All of this needs to be born in mind when reading older Western works and also for understanding modern works attempting to discuss older works, whether of East or West.

the children who excelled at perceiving auras and different types of energy, were those who practiced chi kung from a young age.: The reason why they excel is not just because they have practiced since they were children, but because they started as children they take the experiences for granted and are not afraid that they are "hallucinating" and seeing something that is not real. during that qigong session was the first time I ever saw a human aura - hers. It was golden/yellow in color, like a halo around her whole body: If you saw an aura at this stage, then you have a natural aptitude and will develop quickly, once you are comfortable with your skill. perhaps was even frightened by it . . . I essentially denied myself that progress, for reasons unknown.: You say it all here, let go of your fear and own your ability. one that seems excellent (the type is Flying Phoenix Chi Kung): If you didn't know it already, Sifu Terry Dunn of Flying Phoenix posts here regularly under the name zen-bear and will answer questions on this thread: Flying Phoenix Chi Kung There are several people on the Dao Bums who have worked his system for years who can help you with it. Another system with strong orientation to Psychic development, Qi Healing and Daoist Magic, is that of Professor Jerry Alan Johnson. You can read about him here: International Institute of Medical Qigong There are too many types of qigong, many of which will help develop psychic abilities and there are several good ones that have people here on the Dao Bums who can help you understand and find resources for studying them. Welcome to the Dao Bums, and Good luck.

Going back to this part of what I quoted above: Lest anyone think that this is only something that only Tibetan Nyingma teachers can do, it is a teaching and practice of traditional Western magic as shown by this quote from Book Three of Cornelius Agrippa's Three Books of Occult Philosophy: a man only who is dignified, and elevated to this vertue by some divine gift, or sacred authority: The key being that one must really have reached a certain level of proficiency before this will work, but it does work and is amazingly useful. Now this definitely belongs in General Discussion because it deals with Daoist, Buddhist and Western magical teachings.

I have given considerable thought to the above request, as well as reviewing a few books in my library and trying to find some online references that might be good. I found this site which is a fair, quick scratching of the surface: Hen scratchings on the subject of Plotinus The links on the site go to relevant quotes from Plotinus' writings. Plotinus work, the Enneads is best considered a collection of lecture/commentaries on aspects of Plato which Plotinus, after his years of teaching, thought were most significant. I have books that have sections devoted to the “Soul”, but the “Soul” only makes sense within the context of his whole system, some are good some are fair. I chose two to recommend, one in particular after reading this: Which is Form and Transformation by Frederic M. Schroeder, I thought of this particularly in light of your experience because he deals with Plotinus' aesthetics and has created a work that is both profound, well written and even in some places, beautifully written. Google Books page on Form and Transformation Here is the summary, which is worth quoting: The other book is Nature, Contemplation and the One, by John Deck Nature, Contemplation and the One on Amazon The second review, by Brian C., is very good. At the beginning, my serious study of Plato and the Platonists, which started around 1977, was purely for historical reasons, in order to better understand the worldview of the Renaissance author on Magic, Cornelius Agrippa. During this research I read an essay by Harold Cherniss which was to open up the prospect that there might actually be some intrinsic merit to Plato, et. al., this can be read here: The Philosophical Economy of the Theory of Ideas, by Harold Cherniss on scribd And is definitely worth a read, because it shows how the Platonic doctrine of ideas can unify ontology, epistemology and ethics. I thought this idea was worth investigating and over a period of several years realized that Cherniss was correct in his assertion. This was an important part of my taking Platonism as my basic “working model” of reality. I hope this is helpful.

As a single volume introduction to magic as it was practiced in the late Twentieth Century you cannot beat: Don Kraig, Modern Magick, on Amazon.com I knew Don Kraig personally, and he was a fine person, an excellent writer, and knowledgeable about what he wrote with a good sense of personal integrity. All the internet "wunderkinds" read this and it is a good place to start in order to judge anything that they write. There has been a great renaissance in the art of Alchemy in the late Twentieth Century, largely the result of this man: Frater Albertus While his works and many other works ancient and modern are of value the best single volume introduction to Western Alchemy is probably, A Treatise on the Great Art by Pernety, freely available as a download on the link here: Thanks for posting this 'dawai', it will make it available to interested parties. This was one of the fundamental books in my understanding because it is the only one to clarify the nature of real Great Work as involving three stages, the development of the fire, the generation of the perfect sulfur and the compounding of the 'elixir' which is the actual 'medicine of metals' and is also used for treating people. This I was able to equate with the idea of three Dan in Chinese internal alchemy as part of what I have described as fruitful cross cultural comparison. This was not the only similarity, but only one of many. What is described in the second part for metals holds true for herbal working as well, it is paradigmatic of alchemical practice, which should not be confused with the outer method of making 'stones' and 'tinctures', which is sometimes called spagyrics to differentiate it from the genuine alchemical process. This is why this book is so important as a general overview, the Hermetic model of the cosmos which it describes is the model for all true alchemical operations, it is the Macrocosm of which, what is going on in the alchemists vessels must be an accurate microcosm, if it is not the operation fails. Thus the key to the book is seeing how the description of nature laid out in the first part is reflected in the paradigmatic operations of the second part I have quoted my own post to give it some context. There is unfortunately no single work that covers both fields well, and these are only a beginning to a long and complex study. Undoubtedly, other people will chime in with their own thoughts. Good Luck. Edit: Accidentally hit post while still editing this and need to complete it.

I had already decided that I was conversing with an intelligent person with at least a semi-technical background who was trying to understand these matters in as scientific a manner as possible. The questions were partly rhetorical and partly probes in the sense that how you responded would tell me more about your background. Your response to the first question on what a force is, tells me that your technical background is beyond the semi-technical stage. Your response to the one about gravity organizing information, that it "feels appealing", also tells me something about your unconscious orientation. This one in particular I left very open ended, for example I didn't intend any analogy between consciousness and gravity beyond the notion that they are forms, but I also didn't want to say something so close ended as "gravity is a form that organizes matter". While this might have been more immediately intelligible, I wanted to point beyond that, to implicitly ask what matter might be. By information I am referring to this sort of thing: But I don't want to get too involved with that now except to say that it is very Platonic and since the early 80s, I have viewed the "physical world" as something that models mathematics and not mathematics as something that models the "physical world" Now regarding "causa formalis", I started the thread to which I referred: Agrippa and Aristotle: the Aristotelian background of the Occult So that I might refer to it about formal causes and things like that, and have a discussion that was geared to examining things like magic and astrology and also the relationship of these ideas to modern science so I could refer people to it. My exposition is incomplete, but it is a good start, which is why I recommended it. I probably should have made that clear. My bad as they say. In any case if you look at it you should let me know what you think about it. So, what I am really pointing toward is something related to, but between “consciousness as a formal cause that organizes information” and “gravity as a formal cause that organizes information” and which I will explicitly formulate as “Jupiter is a formal cause that organizes information”, including of course that physical information which we call the planet Jupiter and its orbit, but a whole lot more as well. In more strictly Aristotelian terms "consciousness", "gravity" and "Jupiter" would be "formal causes", which had as their "material causes" certain types of "information". organize to what end? to what purpose? This of course would refer to the "final cause" aspect and I don't want to go there yet. I will develop these ideas as we go along, but I think you may start to see why I took an interest in this thread. I hope this attempt at clarification is helpful.