Kongming

I can't be arsed to debate your shotgun argumentation ramblings voidisyinyang and so I won't.

I will say in conclusion that due to a wish to disprove the National Socialists many have tried to argue that the Proto-Indo-Europeans and Indo-Europeans as they spread across Eurasia weren't of a Northern European racial type, but its most certainly the case. That the Nazis used the term Aryan is, again, irrelevant because it was in use in the sense in which they used it prior to the Nazis, after the Nazis, and by people who held no political sentiments similar to the Nazis. The way these older scholars used the term "Aryan" is equivalent to how we now use the term "Indo-European" and "Proto-Indo-European", but now the emphasis is entirely linguistic rather than carrying an ethnic element which again stems entirely from the stigma associated with the Nazis.

To sum up:

--Celts, Germanics, Slavs, Balts--the current day Northern European peoples--possess the features I am discussing. It also so happens that the most commonly proposed Indo-European urheimat, the Steppes of Ukraine/Russia and or around the Caucasus, are homes to modern populations that display these features in large part.

--Of all the various phenotypes associated with Indo-Europeans today, the only one which has a historical presence in all groups to varying degrees is the Nordic one discussed whereas other types (Mediterranean, Near Eastern, Indian, etc.) are not found in other groups. Therefore it is the only pan-Indo-European type.

--We have the Tocharian/Indo-European mummies of the Tarimm basin preserved which shows the most Easterly Aryan group looked similar to modern day Europeans. There are also isolated population groups in the Near East/Central Asia who possess these features in decent number today, such as the Pamiris, Kalash, various Pashtuns, Nuristani, etc. Further to the West, various Kurds also possess these features in fair number. Punch these tribes into Google Images along with "light hair" or "light eyes" and see the evidence for yourself.

--In India R1 genetics are highest in the North and among the upper two castes, which also happens to be the part of the population that have higher incidences of fair skin, light eyes,. etc. Compare Nakul Mehta to your average Indian today to take one example.

--One of the major pan-Indo-European gods, the Thunderer Thor/Indra/Taranis, etc., is almost always described as a red bearded masculine man. Almost always historically people modeled the gods in their own image.

--Always fascinating to note these ancient Etruscan tomb paintings which shows the ethnic difference between the native, Mediterranean, non-Indo-European Etruscan dancer and the Latin/Indo-European dancer:

10 hours ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans

 

So I think you wanting to claim Aryan for Proto-Indo-Europeans is blatantly racist.

It's not about "claiming" anything and the term "Aryan" is as valid as the more politically correct and updated "Indo-European" and "Proto-Indo-European." The term "Aryan" was used by a wide variety of scholars with no connection with the National Socialists and, as I've shown, actually has cognates and connections with the various Indo-European cultures unlike the term "Indo-European."

In the end you can call them what you wish. Indo-European is the preferred term today primarily due to the controversy surrounding the employment of the term "Aryan" by NS Germany. That said I find that shaping my choice of words or language or life based around what the Nazis may or may not have said or done to be a bore and therefore I do not.

10 hours ago, Nungali said:

 

I have posted here  elsewhere    " how the Aryans were not to be defined by race or ethnicity " . 

 

 

 

After they had spread across Eurasia and mixed with various other non-Indo-European people, they could be said to be no longer defined by a particular ethnic type or appearance, such as the situation is today where Irishmen, Greeks, Iranians, and Indians all look very different. Though you can see this even in ancient times where some Persians, who had mixed with the more Mesopotamian/Near Eastern peoples of the area, looked different to the various Iranic speaking people of the steppe such as the Scythians, Sarmatians, Alans, who were often noted to have blonde hair and confused with the Celts and other northern barbarians by the ancient Greeks.

The point is that the Indo-Europeans or Aryans come from one root people who were of a particular ethnic type, namely Caucasoids with more Northern European associated features. The evidence is what I discussed earlier and it boggles my mind how anyone could really deny it after reviewing the evidence. The main sources of denial in this regard are political and emotional first and foremost: "Well the Nazis believed that therefore it's bad and we must believe something else" and because it irritates some Indian Hindu nationalist types who don't like the idea that their religious tradition and culture has roots in a people with a European phenotype, especially since the British had just left.

1 hour ago, Ryan94 said:

 

Didn't everyone, then and now (including the Indians), believe that the Aryans originated from the Caucasus mountains? They began to expand around the Amu Darya and then invaded Iran, India and Western China from there.

 

In fact, the nordics don't even have the R1 (Indo-European/Aryan) genotype that is common in nations descended from the 'Aryans'.

It's not about Nordics as in the people of Scandinavia, although the Germanic culture was spread there with R1 genetics which do exist in substantial number across Scandinavia. Its about what me may perhaps describe as "Nordish" or "Northern European" features, namely being Caucasoids with fair skin, hair ranging in colors but possessing red and blonde hair, and light eyes. Of course not every single Indo-European to the man would look like this, but it is interesting to note for further confirmation of the reality of this type that the upper castes of Northern India where there is higher concentration of R1 genetics also happens to be where you find higher incidences of light eyes, fairer skin, etc. 

That said the Proto-Indo-European homeland is still a matter of debate, though most favor the Caucasus or steppes of Ukraine/Russia.

1 hour ago, Ryan94 said:

 

What sources?

I don't recall which sources offhand, though a quick search on Google Books for "Bodhidharma red hair" turns up some results to pursue.

Aryan is just a term that various pre-Second World War scholars gave to the wider Indo-European family. That the National Socialists may have used the term is irrelevant to the validity of the term. Some retort that Aryan specifically refers to the Indo-Aryans of Persia and India, and this in part is true, but it also has a cross cultural referent and cognate in other Indo-European cultures. One example of this is the pan-Indo-European or pan-Aryan god Aryaman, who in the Avestan is Airyaman, appears as the legendary king Eremon in the Irish, and likely is related to the Irmin of the Germanic tribes. The freemen and nobles of Irelend were bóaire or "cattle lords" and the same cognate is connected to the Greek "aristos" as in "aristocracy."

That these ancient Aryans  prior to admixture with other population groups were of a Nordic European type is really undeniable to anyone who studies the matter without bias....the main source of controversy and denial in this area is due to Second World War. Prior to this it was accepted by most scholars including often Indian scholars and they were working with less evidence than we now possess.

One of the most solid pieces of evidence is the Tarimm mummies, showing the Far Eastern Indo-Europeans had a similar appearance to those in Europe. The frequency of this phenotype among various isolated people such as the Pamiris, Kalash, various Afghans, various Kurds, etc. lends further confirmation to this fact. Further evidence is the presence of this Northern European racial type among all the various Indo-European peoples to varying degrees (various ancient Greeks, Romans, Armenians, Kurds, Persians, Indians, Thracians, Celts, Germanics, Slavs, Balts, etc.) but the absence of other types, such as the more normative Indian type, the Mediterranean and Near Eastern types, etc. in other groups...in other words, it is the only pan-Indo-European type, even if it is now a minority among non-Europeans.

That these people had an impact on Chinese religion seems quite likely in regards to early Daoism and certain in relation to Buddhism of course (earliest sources describe Bodhidharma as a "red haired blue eyed barbarian.") Victor H. Mair proposes an Indo-European origin of the word "Dao" itself and Kunlun, a concept matching Mt. Olympus or Sumeru, likely has Tocharian etymological origins. The myth of Pangu which matches that of Purusa and Ymir in the Norse (as well as medieval Irish myths regarding Adam) is another example. Finally, while perhaps not the result of direct influence but rather dealing with the same objective realities, it is interesting to note how similar the cosmology of the Norse myths is to that of Daosim as this man explains (albeit there are different interpretations given and terms used than those he uses):

So are there any particular sets that come to mind which would fit into the category I mentioned initially, namely qigong/neigong with a specifically Daoist spiritual orientation rather than martial or medical?

Has anyone read the book "Qigong Empowerment" which has a section devoted to supposedly Daoist qigong? If so is this book worth purchasing?

How about the whole Kunlun/Jenny Lamb's "Yigong" exercise? What is the goal of these sorts of practices and how do they relate, if at all, to the higher goals of neidan?

How about Feng Zhiqiang's "Hunyuan Qigong"? I know he is mostly known for martial arts, but I've been practicing this set for 2 or 3 years now and have had some powerful experiences with it. Is this known to have purely spiritual aims or any relation to the goals of neidan, even if in a preparatory capacity? 

Thanks. It seems to me that Daoism and qigong, things like Taijiquan, etc. tend to emphasize softness, fluidity, flexibility, lightness, etc. whereas things like weight lifting and boxing seem a bit "harder" or perhaps more violent. Therefore not only does the whole aura seem contrasted, but I also was curious if lifting weights could be detrimental to the goals of qigong and neidan. 

An example you often see is of the ideal Daoist or even Daoist inspired warrior....usually a more gracile, gentlemanly type who wields a jian sword, etc. One just wonders if one could simultaneously be a muscular Conan the Barbarian type while also fully engaged in the Daoist path.

Another factor of interest: how about social life? Serious Daoists often are associated with hermits, mountain ascetics, monks, wanderers, etc. To what degree does a social life become harmful or an obstacle?

To what degree are the path and practices of Daoism, whether meditation or qigong/neigong or neidan, compatible with other pursuits and activities?

In particular I was curious if things like lifting weights (not necessarily for either serious strength training or trying to be like Arnold Schwarzenegger) or boxing/Muay Thai/other non-qi based or traditional martial arts could possibly get in the way of serious Daoist praxis. So for example, would lifting weights be bad for qigong practitioners? Would having a vested interested in working out and/or martial arts such as those mentioned get in the way of someone committed to neidan or is a balance possible?

In short, when one is truly dedicated to the Daoist path and seeing it through, is there enough time/energy left over to be dedicated to other pursuits?

Was reminded of a few other differences between Buddhism and Daoism earlier today:

--Astrology has been much more vital to the Daoist tradition than the Buddhist one, both in its normal sense and in astrological imagery playing a large role, traditions of ingesting light/qi from the heavenly bodies, astrological (and seasonal) attunement, etc. As far as I am aware Buddhism has had an astrological tradition but relatively minor in importance and especially compared to Daoism where it has played a large role.

--Daoism has, thanks to its connection with and use of the the Yijing/Book of Changes (despite often being seen as a Confucian work), a much larger use and acceptance of divination of various sorts. I believe the Buddha spoke against the use of divination.

--Returning to the topic of the body, not only has there been more emphasis and positive perspective of the body in Daoism compared to Buddhism where it is seen as an illusion and suffering, Daoism also has, in line with its view of the body as a microcosm, viewed the body as containing various divine landscapes and reflections of the cosmos, such as the two eyes being the sun and moon, the dantian's being the microcosm of various heavens, containing bodily deities in the same way there are heavenly deities, etc.

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

In fact it's another quote of Stephen Little from the same book! haha. So again he's an art curator. Not exactly qigong or neidan training.

 

 

Whether he is an art curator or not doesn't prevent him from having sound understanding of what the source texts say. Are you ignoring where the Xuanlan renniao shan jingtu states that yuanqi issued, i.e. emanated, from the Dao or earlier in the thread where Cheng Xuanying states that the original qi is born from the Dao?

Either way, it is the case that Daoism is a diverse tradition with diverse perspectives on various topics without central dogmas in the way of Christianity or Islam and thus there may be different views on cosmogensis and the relation of hundun or yuanqi or the universe to the Dao. Hence differing opinions among Daoists themselves on Wuji/Taiji, Dao and Yuanqi, etc.

Furthermore what I've been saying doesn't make the yuanqi or the One or the universe not the Dao due to being an emanation of the Dao in its Absolute aspect. They are two facets of one unified reality, like sun and sunlight or ocean and ocean wave. Though it is quite clear that Daoism has dealt with metaphysics or 性而上学 "xingershang xue" and the metaphysical is precisely what is beyond the physical, namely beyond space-time. Or as AK Coomaraswamy once had it,

"To say, for example, that “I am a pantheist” is merely to confess that “I am not a metaphysician,” just as to say that “two and two make five” would be to confess “I am not a mathematician.”

Just now, voidisyinyang said:

 

That quote you give is a claim that cites John Henderson's book.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=c9-fVey0bP0C&pg=PA149&lpg=PA149&dq=Henderson,+John.+The+Development+and+Decline+of+Chinese+Cosmology&source=bl&ots=if1wtWt0DK&sig=o6eAXbR-Ome7xh_s5ynlO0kI03s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjXsLS0wOHUAhXmxVQKHd1ODPA4ChDoAQgnMAA#v=onepage&q=Henderson%2C John. The Development and Decline of Chinese Cosmology&f=false

 

The book is not based on real Taoist training -

And? It is well known that those numbers are sacred in Daoism and that they therefore match various sacred numbers in Western esotericism, whatever the ultimate reasoning or origin of the two sets. That they are related is secondary to the primary point, which is that Daoism's numbers and emphasis on numbers differs from Buddhism.

Just now, voidisyinyang said:

You claim that the qi "emanates" from the Dao but you have absolutely no evidence for this.

Sigh....why are you so insistent to debate? I'd like not to derail, but for amusement here we go...a brief search turns up:

Komjathy:

"Introduction to World Religions: Communities and Cultures":

"Taoism and the Arts of China":

From http://www.goldenelixir.com/taoism/ill_yuanqi.html:

"The Original Breath (yuanqi) issued from the Dao." 

From the thesis "DAOIST ELEMENTS IN CAI GUO-QIANG’S INOPPORTUNE AND HEAD ON" (http://www.mhsl.uab.edu/dt/2011m/wockenfuss.pdf):

"Translated as meaning “the way,” Dao is believed to have begun as an empty stillness out of which the primal energy yuan qi emerged. “For many cosmic eons,” this energy swirled in a state of chaos called hundun, eventually forming into the corresponding forces of yin and yang. From this energy the universe was formed, encompassing the force of qi. Described as energy, qi permeates all matter, thus matter and energy are interchangeable, as expressed in the basic principles of nuclear physics.

Though Daoism is a diverse tradition with many viewpoints throughout its long history, so perhaps there have been some that shared the perspective you are arguing for.

1 hour ago, Michael Sternbach said:

 

Yes, there are definitely many parallels. Probably you know the short treatise Evola wrote on the The Secret of the Golden Flower in comparison to Western spiritual Alchemy?

 

While even in the West, the internal aspect of Alchemy has been the emphasis of many traditional texts (although by no means of all of them, as Jung and, arguably, Evola believed), and the Alchemical symbolism readily lends itself to psychospiritual interpretation, we don't find the detailed explanations, much less practical applications, of subtle anatomy that we see in Chinese texts.

 

Comparisons of the commonalities that we do find are interesting, but not too easy a topic.

 

Personally, I work with both approaches, but I keep them separate from each other for the most part, while remaining open to acknowledging equivalents as they present themselves.

I had not read that treatise by Evola you mentioned, I will have to seek it out so I thank you for sharing.

As to subtle anatomy, it seems it wasn't as prominent or detailed in the Western tradition, though perhaps this is due to the different religious conditions in the West where dogmatic orthodoxy and suspicion of non-Christian material were prevalent. In such a case perhaps the knowledge was truly esoteric, as in secret and hidden. Gichtel is interesting in this regard:

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Do you have any evidence for this claim?

 

I have detailed precisely why Daoism in now way "closely mirrors" western esotericism as Plato is based on symmetric math from irrational magnitude.

 

 

Just posted this in another thread actually:

Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve.

From: 

http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

Though while they match on 3, 9, 12 (these were also sacred in non-Platonic influenced cultures such as that of the pre-Christian Celts and Norsemen), Daoists have placed more emphasis on 5 (due to Wuxing.)

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

You now claim that is "off topic." Hilarious!

 

Censorship is your only way of even acknowledging the information I have posted in this thread.

 

Nice "thread" dude!

Your viewpoint on the matter is on topic and I am glad you shared it, an in depth debate on the nature of emptiness and time in Daoism is not related to the topic. Aside from not being related to the topic, I am not interested in continuing the debate as I've already shared and argued my perspective and remain convinced of it.  If you feel that my view is incorrect that's fine, but again we'll have to agree to disagree.

So does anyone here engage in a mutual study and practice of Western alchemy/Hermeticism and Neidan/Daoism? Would such a dual study or cultivation be useful or merely confusing? Are they complementary and working toward the same goal or are they essentially different?

This article tends to see some strong similarities:

Quote

 

 The Five Agents are a product of the deeper Yin-Yang dynamics which originated as a relationship between Yang (light, breath, movement, male heaven) and Yin (darkness, bodily stillness, female earth) in the midst of which emerged the Human (jen) realm of mediation and synthesis. This tripart division of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth each have their correspondent rulers, spirits, and powers. The interactive dynamics of Yin-Yang integration emerges from the Primordial Breath (yuanqi or taiji), the creative energy of Being, which is itself is born of wuqi (Highest Non-Energy). These correlations, which are many and highly diverse within various Daoist systems, were further correlated with the eight trigrams and the sixty four hexagrams of the Yijing, accompanied by multiple Daoist commentaries, associated with many diverse deities, and strong emphasis on astral influences of the Big Dipper constellation (Thunder Magic). All of these associations were tied to ritual and magical practices carried out by trained Daoist masters who were experts in the esoteric lore and visualization techniques of Daoist alchemy and ceremonial invocation. [32]This correlative approach is highly congruent with the western Hermetic tradition rooted in a similar correlative cosmology based in early Greco-Roman alchemy, based on five elements (earth, water, air, fire and aether) transmitted through Islamic alchemical traditions in the form of alchemical and Hermetic cosmological texts which were translated into European languages during the Italian Renaissance. The Hermetic texts were primary sources for western esoteric theories of the prisca theologia and the philosophia perennis and were clearly an early, comparative resource for the esoteric reading of translated Daoist texts. [33]

 

Renaissance correlative cosmology was highly visual (graphic arts) and imagistic in mapping the body, for example Robert Fludd’s microcosmic “atmospheric” depiction of the body or various Kabbalistic theories of the body, in ways more detailed and elaborate but similar to Daoist theories of the “landscape of the body” which contains a multitude of sacred beings, astrological energies, and a tripart division of upper, middle and lower chambers, each with its ruling spirits and cosmological correlations. [34] Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve. Western esotericism has many hierarchical systems in organizing its cosmology as do the many Daoist schools where various planes correspond to specific orders or powers or deities, linked through correlative relationships forming a “chain of being” between the different orders, as illustrated in ~Cornelius Agrippa’s De Occulta Philosophia (1533) and similar to many Yuan dynasty Daoist texts.[35]   However, Daoists have tended toward a less rigidly structured hierarchy and have been tolerant of diversity among the various Daoist esoteric schools. [36]

 

Many texts on Daoist alchemy share resonances with Western esoteric, hermetic practices including the refinement of material substances through various stages of transformation, a search for an immortal elixir or “cinnabar pill”, use of an hermetic vessel or cauldron, occult animal and talismanic (fu) symbolism including special magical scripts, the use of mineral, vegetable and pharmacological substances, secret or orally transmitted instructions (later written down), the use of esoteric visualization (tsun), breath and movement techniques,  reclusive withdrawal from the world, fasting and asceticism, the significance of dreams and a general visionary epistemology, as well as the elusive search for varying degrees of immortality, a particular goal of Daoist practice. Magical practices, with invocations, sacred circles, geomantic inscriptions, carried out with magical implements like the staff or sword, with incense, bells, and chanting are also common aspects of both Daoist and Western esoteric techniques. [37] It was the religious and magical techniques of Daoism that strongly attracted the interests of certain western esotericists, much more than the strictly philosophical texts of early classical Daoism. Mythical stories and imagery, dragon bones and water fairies, the golden peaches of immortality from the gardens of Hsi Wang Mu (Queen of Heaven), as well as the reputed occult powers and abilities of the Daoist masters or “immortals” (xien), both embodied and disembodied, resonate well with the imaginative worlds of western esoteric, magical thought. The Daoist emphasis on “internal” (neidan) alchemy or the distillation of the "Golden Elixir" (jindan) based on ritual, meditation and breath techniques for personal spiritual transformation, as compared to the more “external” (waidan) laboratory practices, also resonated well with late 19th century magical society practices that emphasized personal transformation while the mingling of both alchemical aspects was common in western esoteric traditions. [38] 

 

Source: http://www.esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeVI/Dao.htm

Perhaps you should start a new thread on the topic on the nature of the Dao, yinyang, time, etc. since it is off topic here. That said I remain convinced of my own position outlined yesterday, so as far as me personally we will have to settle on agreeing to disagree.

Returning to the topic, it also seems that Daoism and Buddhism share differences regarding sacred numbers. In Daoism sacred numerology plays a large role whereas in Buddhism it plays a considerably lesser role as far as I've studied it. Not only is sacred numerology more important in Daoism, the two traditions are different in what numbers they consider sacred. Daoism closely mirrors Western esotericism in this regard, with emphasis on 3, 5, 7, 9, 12, whereas in Buddhism it seems 8 and 10 received greater emphasis.

18 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

These "intellectual" debates are tawdry.

Well I am of the opinion that intellectualism and debate won't bring anyone any closer to enlightenment, but the Buddha himself debated various critics and rivals and India has had a long tradition of debate which they considered important, and this has passed over into Tibetan Buddhism.

That said, the goal of this thread is to highlight what differences exist between Daoism and Buddhism. Whether one feels the differences are unimportant or not is a personal sentiment unrelated to the thread.

Well returning to the topic matter, one other difference between Daoism and Buddhism is on whether there is an enduring subject of any sort across moments of time or not. Buddhism famously declares that there is no connecting subject between each succession of moments and the belief in such is illusory. As far as I am aware Daoism, aside from the possibility of individual Daoists heavily influenced by Buddhist thought later in history, would be more in agreement with the following perspective of Kashmir Shaivism vis a vis Buddhism:

Quote

However, Monistic Kashmiri Shaivism seems to make a stunning comeback with its analysis of memory. Buddhists and Shaivas agree that memory has access to the past by means of impressions from original experiences (78). The Shaivas also agree with the Buddhists that impressions can account for the similarity between a memory with the original experience (124). For example, the full process of rememberence can be explained like this: first one sees a pot. The perception of the pot is an impression the now exists as a memory. Later on, one sees a pot. Finally one immediately thinks "ah, this (the present pot) is that (the memory of the first experience of the pot)." One main aspect of the remembering of the (past-experienced) pot is the similarity that exists between the present pot and the memory of the earlier pot. There is another crucial aspect of the process of remembering that the Shaivite point out:

• ...there is more in memory to be explained than its mere similarity to an orignal experience of an object. If memory were only a sort of copy of the original experience of an object, it [remembering of the earlier pot] would still have the expression typified as "this." "This" is an ascription having the signficance of something that is present to perception. The memory of the object however has the typical expression "that." That is, it is qualified as previously experienced. Now, according to the Saivas, such a qualification requires that there is some sort of awareness in memory of the previous experience itself as well as its [the previous experience’s] object. (124)

The remembrance of an object is coupled with a rememberance of the experience, the previous cognition of the object. In other words, when someone remembers an object, the object alone is not just brought to mind, but gets tagged with the "trait" as "having been experienced in the past." This aspect of memory relates to an awareness of awareness of an object. One would usually call such "self-awareness," but this is, of course, a designation that Buddhism considers false. Buddhism does hold that each particular cognition of an object has its own temporary cognition of cognition, or "self"-luminosity of each experience, with the "self" here meaning only that episode of perceptual experience or memory, not an enduring self. In other words, Buddhism holds that one fleeting episode of awareness can include awareness of awareness.

 

However, the Shaivas argue that this Buddhist theory does not account for the cross-episodic awareness aspect of memory (124). As described earlier, the experience of remembering includes an awareness of not only of similarity between the present object and a previously experienced object. Remembering also includes an awareness of having a previously experienced the object. "This is that," the object designated as that is qualifed as being experienced before.

 

Now how could this present temporary fleeting unique episode of remembering awareness have an awareness of previously experiencing something? If the previous episode is a unique particular awareness, and the remembering episode is a unique particular awareness, then the remembering episode could not be qualified as previously experiencing anything. Each cognitive episode, according to Buddhism, is distinct and unique, and no number of episodes have any authentic connection or unity amongst them. If this were true, how could one episode, all by itself, have the ability recall or connect itself to a previous episode in memory? Yet one knows and Buddhism does not deny that such occurs.

 

Thus The Shaiva asserts that the Buddhist theory of cognition cannot account for previous awarenesses of awareness. The Shaiva response is finally that there must be a continuing enduring self that is involved with awareness of previous awarnesses (125). An enduring self can of course be aware of its own, united, collection of awarenesses across time. 

This is further confirmed by another difference between some sects of Daoism and Buddhism, namely Daoism's emphasis on ancestral connections and even the ability to liberate some of your ancestors via your own liberation (as well as inheriting the negative "karma" or guilt of your ancestors, etc.) From Robinet's book "Taoist Mediation":

Thus it is said that an adept's faults are wiped away; that all the germs of death in him have disappeared; that sometime after his purification in the fire within the Southern Palace, he will be reborn within an immortal embryo; and that after his name is inscribed in the heavens, he will be called to assume divine functions and converse with the deities. As especially noted in the Great Purity texts, he will rescue his parents and all of his ancestors up to the seventh generation.

Death is not a separation. The merits of the dead either acquired during their lifetime or gained after their passing can fall upon their descendants. Thus T'ao Hung-ching explains that one may be moved to practice the "liberation from the corpse" because of the merits of one's ancestors (he stipulates, however, that purification is not complete in this case and a leg must be donated as an offering to the ancestors). The Pa-su ching, one of the basic works of the Mao-shan movement, says that: "the kuei (souls of the dead who are in the hells) can practice achieving immortality (hsien) like human beings; they can practice in the direction of the Tao and, after seven generations (of ancestors) are established in virtue, their merits fall upon their descendants which leads them toward the divine (shen) and immortal condition."

It is therefore the case that salvation is not an individual matter. The adept, after all, cannot be saved by himself. It is a matter that involves the adept together with his family down through seven or nine generations. We must note, however, that this familial solidarity primarily applies to a single individual and his ancestors. The link with one's descendants appears to be less strong and the texts only rarely mention such a connection. On the other hand, the adept's task seems to be concerned simultaneously with his own and his ancestors' salvation. And this seems to imply that he could also expect that his salvation, or the aggravation of his sufferings, will be effected by his descendants. This emphasis on a linkage with preceding rather than posterior generations seems to be particularly Chinese. As an interaction oriented to past generations, this appears to be a characteristic clearly distinguished from the concept of karma since, in Buddhism, the believer by his own faults does not aggravate the sufferings undergone by his ancestors in the other-world.

Perhaps we can get a thread going discussing various aspects of Western/Hermetic alchemy or post anything insightful in relation to the topic you are aware of. Perhaps we can touch on its relation to Daoist neidan or Indian Siddha alchemical traditions or its own interrelation with Kabbalah, the Hermetic philosophy, and Western esotericism in general?

There's a pinned thread on practical alchemy books, but it may be interesting to explore general thoughts on Western alchemy and Hermeticism here.

To start, here's a fascinating and illuminating section from the beginning of Julius Evola's book on Hermeticism:

I can't waste time going in circles with you or addressing all the extraneous material you post. That said its really quite simple:

1) Laozi, Huainanzi, Liezi, and other texts, as well as most academics I've read, describe the Dao as the unchanging origin of the cosmos
2) The cosmos is space and time, thus that which produces space-time cannot be space-time, hence it is timeless

3) Change is the result of yin-yang interacting, yet as per DDJ 42 the Dao precedes or gives birth to yin-yang and thus is prior to change

For further confirmation, read this from the Dao Companion to Daoist Philosophy:

Perhaps the most influential typological approach was that of FENG Youlan 馮友蘭 (1895–1990), whose “A Preliminary Draft of New Essays on the History of Chinese Philosophy” 中國哲學史新編試稿 distinguishes between several senses of the term "Dao": (1) the origin of the myriad phenomena (e.g., chapter 4, “as if it were the founding ancestor of the myriad things,” si wanwu zhi zong 似萬物之宗), (2) the origin of all transformations (e.g., chapter 42, “Dao gives birth to one, one to two, two to three, three to the myriad things,” Dao sheng yi, yi sheng er, er sheng san, san sheng wanwu 道生一,一生二,二生三,三生萬物), and (3) the imperceptible transcendent, that is, the one thing that does not transform (e.g., chapter 25, “it proceeds in a cycle without ever tiring,” zhou xing er budai 周行而不殆, see Hu 2006: 64–65). Of the first sense, in this early work from the 1960s, Feng writes that phenomena must be produced according to a “basic principle” (yuan li 原理), and that is Dao. Here, the examples Feng chooses tend to relate Dao to the phenomenal world in a temporal or developmental sequence (e.g., chapter 25, “Something came forth chaotic and complete, born prior to Heaven and Earth,” you wu huncheng, xian tiandi sheng 有物混成, 先天地生). Yet other sections of the Laozi promote a second, more abstract sense of Dao that is distinct from both the concrete world of phenomena and the world (presence, you 有) that gives birth to them in the manner of the first sense. Instead, this second sense of the term is the realm of absence (wu 無) that gives birth to that world (e.g., chapter 40, “the myriad things in the universe are born from presence, and presence is born from absence” tianxia wanwu sheng yu you, you sheng yu wu 天下萬物生 於有, 有生於無) and therefore lies outside time and space. Finally, the last sense defines Dao through negation, expressing its meaning not by its relationship to the phenomenal world, but rather by denying basic contrasts, such as between this (ci 此) and that (bi 彼). Indeed, the first two senses of the Dao—as an originating principle for the creation of the phenomenal world and as an entity outside of both principle and phenomena and so responsible for their creation—are both, in this third view, things that can be named and therefore are not Dao (cf. chapter 32, Dao chang wu ming 道常無名, Hu 2006: 70–71).

This is my perspective and I believe it is correct, if you feel otherwise we will have to agree to disagree.

 What you've posted is about wuwei, not the unchanging origin of the cosmos (remember the cosmos is space-time, thus what "births it", namely the Dao giving birth to the One, etc.. is necessarily beyond time.) These are two different topics.

12 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

So then you refer to Fabrizio Pregadio making "comments."

The references you are quoting from Pregadio is not the same one I am referencing, which is a clear reference to the timeless immortality goal of neidan via reversing the cosmogonic process. Again two different topics. Another note from Pregadio from "Transforming the Void: Embryological Discourse and Reproductive Imagery in East Asian Religions":

"From this perspective, the relative domain, define by space and time, does not even exist." This is the attainment of the Absolute perspective, the becoming a "zhenren" or "xian" I've been mentioning and is the perspective of one rooted in that which is timeless and transcendent while still being in the world as also noted (the metaphor of the lotus flower, with its roots in the water/mud, i.e. the physical world of space-time but with its flower above the water, i.e. transcendence, is referencing the same thing.)

Veering off topic a bit but figured I'd share while its on my mind, but really the "immanent transcendence" that I've been mentioning is the philosophical or sacred quality behind Chinese 山水画 or shan shui painting. The world (the colored or defined parts) emerges out of the void (the Dao) which also remains present, interfused with, and contains the world, represented by the white or empty parts of the painting:

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

What doesn't change is the process of change.

 

So it's another order of logical type.

 

Are you getting it yet?

You're ignoring where the Liezi states:

The Unborn can give birth to the born, the Unchanging can change the changing.
Therefore that which gives birth to things is unborn, that which changes things is unchanging.

That which is born and changing is the world, which is another facet (or rather the function or power of) of the Dao  but not its Absolute aspect, whereas the latter is that which is unborn and unchanging. A rough metaphor would be the sun and sunlight...they are one, but the sun in and of itself (the Dao as Absolute) is what emits the light (the Dao as being, change, the world, etc.)

Again change itself is the result of the interaction of yin and yang. Yin and yang's polarization is "the Two" and their interaction is "the Three." The Dao precedes the One, let alone the Two or Three, and thus precedes change.
 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

No he doesn't say that! Show me where he says that.

First he refers to it as another dimension, referencing transcendence. Then he speaks of "crossing the barrier" by attaining that which has "no beginning and no ending", a reference to eternity. He then states that there is no point in that "other dimension" which can differentiate "no beginning" and "no ending" due to the fact that there is "no time gap and no space gap", referencing the timeless and spaceless qualities of transcendence.
 

1 hour ago, voidisyinyang said:

So it is easy to see how Wu Chi can then be changed to Zero and then you get this Western projection of a static transcendent absolute that is somehow different from change.

 

So there is no transcendent "escape" - the immortal is a Yang Shen but as the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality details - the Yang Shen still "vaporizes" back into Yuan Qi.

Did you miss the part where I stated that the unchanging Absolute contains the world of change and thus is not separate from it? That how we perceive reality, whether we are mere men or immortals, is based on our ontological state and wisdom, with the relative state being that of mortals and the Absolute state that of immortals? This is what is being discussed in what I quoted earlier:

As Fabrizio Pregadio comments, the alchemist rises through the hierarchy of the constituents of being by accelerating the rhythms of Nature. Bringing time to its end, or tracing it back to its beginning, is equivalent. In either case time is transcended, and the alchemist gains access to timelessness, or “immortality.” (Pregadio, 2 Doctrines) One becomes what Zhuangzi calls a zhenren 真人 or True Man.

Also did you miss where I stated the immortal brings transcendence within immanence, being within the temporal world while having his inner nature being rooted in timelessness? That isn't an escape to some other world. Here's Julius Evola discussing this point from his "Path of the Cinnabar":

"It is only in my later commentary on the text that I clearly emphasized how Taoism is defined by a kind of 'immanent transcendence': by the direct presence of non-being (in its positive sense of supra-ontological essentiality) within being, of the infinitely remote (the 'Sky') in what is close, and of what is beyond nature within nature. Only then did I clearly point out that Taoism is equally remote from both pantheistic immanence and transcendence, as it is founded on the direct sort of experience which underlies the specific existential structure of primeval humanity."

Similarly from Hans-Georg Moeller's "Daoism Explained" (brackets mine):

The timeless Daoist sage does not take anything away from the authenticity of the temporal. Unlike [most] Western conceptions of eternity, which tend to devaluate all that is merely temporal, the Daoist concept of timelessness affirms the realm of temporality and of passing time. Just as the sage affirms both life and death, the sage also affirms the course of time. While he is without presence, without beginning and end, he still always "goes in accord with the course of things." He is the nonpresence that always accompanies the sequence of presence. While the Daoist sage is timeless within time, he is well aware of change. 

Eva Wong from her "Harmonizing Yin and Yang":

Taoist alchemy is also concerned with spiritual transformation. This transformation involves changing the body and mind from a mundane state to one that mirrors the timeless and permanent reality of the Tao. 

32 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

 

So you quote one phrase and try to ignore the following phrase.

I don't try to ignore that bit or I would have left it out of the quotation altogether. The "ever present and in motion" bit is about Dao in activity, the Dao as the world process, whereas the "standing alone and unchanging" bit is about the Dao in its Absolute aspect, as the source and ground of all reality, which is what I've been discussing. Changes themselves are the result of the interaction of yin and yang, and yet the polarization into yin and yang is "the Two" of the cosmogony we've been referencing. In other words the Dao as Absolute is prior to change.

Did you ignore the Liezi which is even more straightforward?

32 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

So I watched the video. I totally agree with the video.

 

He says there is "no gap in time."

 

Can you quote him saying there is "timeless immortality"?

 

 

He's saying that there is no difference between "no beginning and no ending" because there is no time gap, namely no temporal process at all, no change. He is referencing the state of the 仙 "xian",  to be immortal, namely to attain eternity which is not endless change alone but that which is unchanging and timeless.

Interestingly another connotation and translation of 仙 "xian" is "transcendent"....what have they transcended exactly that makes them immortal? Time and change, which is why they are like the Dao in its Absolute aspect, namely unborn and unchanging. Yet similarly to the Dao, the immortal can also "enter" and participate in temporality while having his inner state remain rooted in transcendent timelessness. This is called bringing transcendence into immanence, or immanent transcendence.

41 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

Exactly we totally disagree and I want to make that clear.

 

I made the same error as you after my "enlightenment experience" - I thought the Emptiness was some static transcendence beyond time - due to my Western bias of monism or nondualism.

 

So I know exactly what error you are making. The qigong master said my mind was still confused.

 

So I kept studying and discovered - no - the Dao is eternal change - there is no "center" of the universe - there is no timeless transcendence.

 

So when the light or shen is "turned around" then time is zero for  light - but during that timeless spirit the Emptiness as Qi then continues creating change as information healing that is reverse spacetime creating new matter as yin matter or yuan jing.

 

This is the "golden key" - of how there is "doing" in "non-movement."

 

Please review the quotes and links I gave you so you can do deeper study to correct your error.

 

thanks.

 

 

That which is timeless is beyond change and hence unchanging. Thus:

The Daodejing 25:

Something mysteriously formed,
Born before heaven and earth.
In the silence and the void,
Standing alone and unchanging,
Ever present and in motion.

From the Liezi, wherein the Dao in its Absolute aspect is what is being referred to as "Unborn" and "Unchanging":

"There are the born and the Unborn, the changing and the Unchanging. The Unborn can give birth to the born , the Unchanging can change the changing. The born cannot escape birth, the changing cannot escape change; therefore birth and change are the norm. Things for which birth and change are the norm are at all times being born and changing. They simply follow the alternations of the Yin and Yang and the four seasons.

The Unborn is by our side yet alone,
The Unchanging goes forth and returns.
Going forth and returning, its successions are endless;
By our side and alone, its Way is boundless.

Therefore that which gives birth to things is unborn, that which changes things is unchanging.'"

From: http://www.corespirit.com/neidan-traditional-meditative-practice/

While Alchemy creates the production of a specific substance of elixir through the chemical process in a laboratory setting, the Inner Alchemy pursues an inner elixir, or an internal “substance of qi” through controlling mind, breath, and body posture in the human body in order to prolong life, thus, man can transcend time and space. As Fabrizio Pregadio comments, the alchemist rises through the hierarchy of the constituents of being by accelerating the rhythms of Nature. Bringing time to its end, or tracing it back to its beginning, is equivalent. In either case time is transcended, and the alchemist gains access to timelessness, or “immortality.” (Pregadio, 2 Doctrines) One becomes what Zhuangzi calls a zhenren 真人 or True Man.

The process of emanation is based on Laozi’s cosmogony: “Tao gives birth to one. One gives birth to two. Two gives birth to three. Three gives birth to ten thousand things.” In alchemical terms, Tao is xu 虛, or the void, the void emanates shen 神, or spirit, the spirit emanates qi, the qi emanates jing 精, or essence, the essence emanates xing 形, or body, the body emanates ren 人, or human. In order to gain longevity, or to access to timelessness, inner alchemist has to rise through the hierarchy of the constituents of being by reversing the rhythms of Nature, tracking time to its beginning. Thus, alchemical process aims at bringing three to two, two to one, and one to void. When one returns to the void of Tao, the ultimate enlightenment is attained.

Daoist Dong Yang mentioning timeless immortality:

11 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

 

 

This is wrong - time is eternal change - this is how precognition happens.

 

So as Paul S. Wesson documented - there is a 5th dimension as noncommutative phase - that is "time-like" - it is phase but not space.

 

So you can LISTEN to the Dao but you can not see the Dao - that is why it's formless.

 

So you have reverse time - as reverse quantum relativity - reverse entropy as negentropy.

 

Linear time is from left brain dominance as entropy. It is real but can be reversed.

 

 

You're talking about something different than me. I am stating that the cosmogony of DDJ 43 isn't entirely a temporal process...the Dao (that which births the One) as timeless origin is eternally present in each succession of moments at the level of the relative world of time and change. Thus in a higher sense there is an identity between the different levels, or in Mahayana terminology "samsara is nirvana." How reality is perceived is based on our own ontological status and wisdom. Thus a regular human experiences the world from the relative perspective, the sage or immortal or "zhenren" from the Absolute perspective, namely unity with the Dao.

This isn't a denial of time, but rather stating that time is "contained' in the timeless which is metaphysically prior to it.

14 minutes ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

Tao means both existence and non exsistance two sides of the coin.

This indeed is true, but that is because often the term "the Dao" means both the Absolute and its function, or the Dao as origin/source/ and the Dao as the world. When I've been talking about the Dao in its Absolute aspect, I've been taking about the first sense of the term. This ultimate aspect of the Dao is equated with 无 "wu" or non-being in much of Daoist discourse, especially since the time of Wang Bi.

1 hour ago, Sudhamma said:

One day a man called Malunkyaputta approached the Master and demanded that He explain the origin of the Universe to him. He even threatened to cease to be His follow if the Buddha's answer was not satisfactory. The Buddha calmly retorted that it was of no consequence to Him whether or not Malunkyaputta followed Him, because the Truth did not need anyone's support. Then the Buddha said that He would not go into a discussion of the origin of the Universe. To Him, gaining knowledge about such matters was a waste of time because a man's task was to liberate himself from the present, not the past or the future. To illustrate this, the Enlightened One related the parable of a man who was shot by a poisoned arrow. This foolish man refused to have the arrow removed until he found out all about the person who shot the arrow. By the time his attendants discovered these unnecessary details, the man was dead. Similarly, our immediate task is to attain Nibbana, not to worry about our beginnings.

Yes, this essentially what I was referencing in an earlier post about Buddha wishing to avoid speculation and to focus on attaining nirvana. That silence on the issue and wish to avoid conceptual constructions seems later to have given rise to actual denials of a source or origin to the world, denial of anything similar to the Atman, a wish to contrast Buddhism to various Hindu traditions, etc.

Obviously this thread is about Daoism and Buddhism's differences and in this area Daoism is different than Buddhism because not only is a cosmogony rooted in an Absolute proposed, this very cosmogony has remained vital to Daoist understandings of the spiritual path, namely via man's personal reversal of the cosmogonic process to attain the Dao, hence the neidan theory of refining jing to qi to shen to Dao, the alchemical vision of the reversal of the cosmogonic process mentioned.

1 hour ago, Wu Ming Jen said:

In the West, the philosophical discussion of ultimate reality is focused on the conception of God, which has been formed under the influences of the Judaeo-Christian tradition and Greek philosophy. There are many basic assumptions in the Western conception of God that are not shared in Lao Tzu's thought. Three important ones may be mentioned here. First, God is conceived as a Being or some "substantial" existence. Second, He is believed to be ontologically different from the nature of the universe. Third, He is said to be in some important sense "personal" in essence. On these basic assumptions, there are many philosophical problems that are peculiar to the Western discussion of philosophy of religion.

  
These are indeed the general trends but of course there are many exceptions in Western tradition, whether among Plotinus and the Neoplatonists (many works highlight the near equivalence of much of Neoplatonism to Vedantic conceptions) and those later Christians that derive from that tradition (Dionysius, Eriugena, Eckhart, Nicholas Cusanus, Boehme, etc.), and among various Hermeticists, alchemists, Kabbalists, etc.
 

A problem also has to do with terminology and what words refer to. Non-being in Daoism is a translation of 无 "wu" meaning "without" and being a translation of 有 "you" or "having." The non-being of the Dao in its ultimate aspect doesn't mean it is a nihilistic nothingness or absence but rather that it is metaphysically prior to and higher than the world of being, which is the world that eventually differentiates into  objects and things.

As far as I understand it, being in much of pre-Christian Western discourse is that which contrasts with becoming, the world of change. Thus this sense of being is more closely approaching the Daoist conception of non-being. Of course with Christianity and the personalization of the Divine things became more confused, which is why you have figures like Eckhart putting forth the notion of the "Gottheit" or "Godhead" which is empty and prior to the highest being, namely the triune God, much in the same way Brahman is prior to Ishvara.

47 minutes ago, voidisyinyang said:

prior to the emanation of qi

 

emanates creation which is of the substance of qi

 

spontaneously "give birth to" or emanate the One.

 

Kongming - you have made the above errors.

 

You have no claims that the Dao "emanates" qi as the "one."

 

I gave you very specific math as to why you have erred.

 

You quote an academic - Louis Komjathy - and yet no where does he state that the  Dao is prior to Qi.

 

I have given you very specific quotes that states Yuan Qi is formless - and "original" is the meaning of Yuan.

 

Yuan Qi does not "emanate" from something that you have constructed or reified as an error.

 

Now - the person you quote states this:

 

 

So qi=Dao.

Qi is the Dao, but that's due to the Dao being the All, nothing can possibly not be "part of" or outside the Dao. This is why I kept stating Dao in its Absolute aspect, which could at best be said to be qi in potential prior to manifestation. Of course this emanation or manifestation isn't a temporal process, as though there was once the Dao alone and then out of it physically sprang a mass of qi in creation.

That said it most certainly was understood that the empty Dao is what "birthed" the One, equated with primordial qi. From Giradot's "Myth and Meaning in Early Taoism":

From "Taoism" edited by Zhongjian Mou describing the Tang Dynasty Daoist Cheng Xuanying's thought on the topic: