Kongming

Thanks for the information and assistance, I suppose the only thing I need to do now is discover a means to get to either China or Taiwan to study Mandarin and thereafter pursue study of Taoism (and the guqin.) I've been looking into scholarships and have run across two that I may potentially be able to qualify for (or hope I can qualify for considering I am about to be 24 and am not enrolled in school.) In the meantime I suppose the best course of action will be to continue self-study of Mandarin and Taoism, incorporating the basic practices/meditations as well as the primary virtues into my life as best as possible.

It is interesting what the Sicilian Baron and esotericist Julius Evola had to say in regards to 真人 and wei-wu-wei:

Lao Tzu's notion of 'non-action' was certainly contrary to any philosophically immanent identification of subject and act, or of act and fact - an identification which I came decidedly to oppose, both in itself and in its historicist application. The (ultimately aristocratic) principle of non-involvement and impassibility is what stood at the centre of Lao Tzu's doctrine. By imitating a divine model, the 'Perfect One' - the 'true man' or 'transcendental man' of Taoism - never identifies himself with external reality. By never acting directly, by not externalizing his own ego through self-affirmation, and by, instead, actively renouncing to 'be' and to 'act' in a direct and conditioned way, the Perfect One achieves what is truly essential. Thus, he enters the Way and makes himself intangible, inexhaustible, invulnerable and insusceptible to any external attempt to subdue him or render him impotent. By virtue of such a process, the Perfect One also becomes capable of acting in a subtle, invisible and magical way: this is the meaning of the expression wei-wu-wei ('to act without acting'), which is also defined as the virtue (té) of the Way (Tao).

 

I was to discuss the principles of Taoism, as described by Lao Tzu, in a more faithful and precise manner about thirty-six years later, in 1959, when I was encouraged by a friend to write a second introduction to the Tao-té-ching. [...]

 

It is only in my later commentary on the text that I clearly emphasized how Taoism is defined by a kind of 'immanent transcendence': by the direct presence of non-being (in its positive sense of supra-ontological essentiality) within being, of the infinitely remote (the 'Sky') in what is close, and of what is beyond nature within nature. Only then did I clearly point out that Taoism is equally remote from both pantheistic immanence and transcendence, as it is founded on the direct sort of experience which underlies the specific existential structure of primeval humanity.

Sorry to keep bumping my own thread, but I had another question I was hoping someone here may be able to answer for me. Essentially it is the same as my initial inquiry about being a Taoist monk/renunciate except I was wondering what the situation is in Taiwan. Are there Taoist monks or hermits in Taiwan and would one be more likely to be successful at such an endeavor in Taiwan over Mainland China? I know foreigners have been able to become Buddhist monks in Taiwan, and from what I hear with greater ease than the Mainland, so I was wondering if the situation was similar with Taoism.

Thanks in advance to any information anyone can provide.

Consciousness is not an object in Daoist practice (Neidan). It's called 識神, "spirit of knowing". It has to be eliminated / transformed.

 

True Nature is a Xing 性, one of the objects of the practice. Another is Ming 命 - fate or life. Only by the dual cultivation of Xing and Ming a person can attain Dao. Our "limited egoic consciousness" cannot be integrated into the Dao, because by itself our consciousness is an obstacle on the Way.

Yes, egoic consciousness is something to be eliminated or transformed, I agree. I was speaking of super-consciousness or universal consciousness, beyond the limiting factors of a personal consciousness. Does such a concept exist in Daoism? Is the Dao itself a universal cosmic consciousness that is the source of the world of space-time and the myriad of things? Does the Dao have awareness or intelligence?

Like him, you'd need to learn the language. Beyond that I don't know. Have you tried to find a way to contact him?

Yea, I've been learning what I can through a mixture of Pimsleur's Mandarin, looking stuff up on the net, and watching Chinese dramas like Romance of the Three Kingdoms haha. I am currently looking for a way to contact him...I found a Facebook page belonging to him and am writing up a message to send him.

I'd really like to find a way to get to China as not only do I want to study Taoism more in depth, I also want to learn the guqin. Beyond that, I have a feeling the only way to become fluent in Mandarin is to live where it is spoken and become immersed.

I know this is an old thread of mine, but I'd like to thank everyone for their replies. Since the time I posted this thread I've grown more attracted to Taoism over Buddhism for certain technical reasons, but I was wondering if anyone could tell me about the Zhongnan mountains and the hermits there. I learned about the Zhongnan mountains through a documentary on Buddhist hermits there called "Amongst White Clouds", but I was wondering if anyone knew if any Taoist hermits are in these mountains to this day?

Since the creator of the documentary I speak of was an American who studied and lived among these hermits, I presume there is some means by which I could accomplish the same task. Does anyone have any further information about these mountains or Taoist hermits/monastics/ascetics in China today and the ability to study under them?

Thanks again!

Interesting. Here is another question I have that I feel is better to ask here than start another thread for:

What is the relation of consciousness to the Dao or how is consciousness viewed in Daoism? For example, is it the case (as in many Indic traditions) that our "true nature" is actually Dao? Are the practices in Daoism such as zuowang or internal alchemy used to integrate our limited egoic consciousness into the Dao, thereby achieving immortality/freedom/bliss, etc. etc.?

^{The traditionalist school (or perennial philosophies) of thought is making a silly claim if they think the eastern religions have much in common with the Abrahamic ones IMO except for hybrid institutions which do exist. Though such distinctions are arbitrary ,, the core reasonings around which various belief systems hover are just not the same , there is just so much bleed over from one system to another that iron clad distinctions arent there.}

^{I have known some folks whose only real attatchments to christianity was the golden rule and the ten commandments (logically) and that they thought there was some sort of god that made things . They just dont fit with much pre-suppositions about their beliefs (though they are very nice folks)}

^{Thats just my opinion . and I hope it bumps you up on the list so some other dudes who really know more on comparative religion notice your post.}

All religions have more in common with each other than with materialism, but really where the Traditionalist school posits the commonality (indeed unity) is in the esoteric or transcendent dimension. If one reads the words of Lao Tzu, Meister Eckhart, Adi Shankara, Ibn Arabi, Huang Po, Plotinus, or Longchenpa, one can see that they are speaking about the same One Truth. This isn't to say that "all religions are exactly the same" or that they have the same (or even similar) doctrinal or philosophical bases, but that they all lead to the same ultimate knowledge or experience. This image shows how they view the situation:

Really though, I just added a reference to that school to show what I am talking about. My primary question is what the ultimate goal of Taoism actually is. Attaining the Tao or returning to the Tao yes, but what does that mean? I agree with the Traditionalist perspective and that's what I've always thought Taoism was after, but I've had people telling me otherwise and that's why I asked.

To specify further, is there a transcendent goal to Taoism? A goal that is beyond living harmoniously in every day life? What is the true meaning of the Taoist "True Man/Zhenren" and "Immortal"?

Thanks for the above link by the way, I am reading now.

Thanks for the information, though in response to Harmonious Emptiness, I wasn't really concerning myself with modern music, though I suppose it could still apply. Specifically I was wondering what Taoist philosophy has to say of sacred music, meditative music, or the use of music as a tool for inner cultivation. Based on what I've read about the guqin and its relation to Taoist aesthetics and use for inner cultivation, they did indeed believe music could be used for that purpose, but really I was hoping to perhaps find a book or more detailed information on the subject.

I have a question regarding what the ultimate goal of Taoism is or even if there is a single answer to that question considering the variety of forms Taoism has taken across the expanse of time. I sometimes hear people say that the goal is to be in harmony with the Tao, often with some notion of being in harmony with nature. Still other times i hear the goal is to become an immortal via internal alchemic transformation, or simply longevity and good health.

What I want to know is whether or not Taoism has the equivalent to what various Hindu philosophies call jivanmukta, what Buddhists often call enlightenment, or what often was known in Western traditions as gnosis. Does Taoism have a notion of a transcendent liberating experience that is equivalent to the highest knowledge, the fulfillment of the meaning of human life, or an attainment of a deathless state/unity with the Absolute?

I always thought that was the case and that was what Lao Tzu and Zhuangzi were getting at with the notion of "attaining the Tao", but I've had people tell me that this is mere "Buddhist interpolation" or a misunderstanding of Taoist soteriology. Of course the way I've read the TTC/Zhuangzi and what translations I could find of other pre-Buddhist Taoist works leads me to believe that is the goal thus precluding any notion of Buddhist interpolation, but perhaps I am wrong.

Perhaps a way to clarify the question would be this--is Taoism compatible with the so-called Perennial Philosophy or the Traditionalist School of thought?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditionalist_School

Thanks in advance to any insights anyone can provide.

Forgive me if this is a question that has been asked before, but I was wondering what the Taoist views on aesthetics, particularly as a spiritual tool, are? This can be applied to natural beauty and any art really, but specifically what I am interested in is what the Taoist view is on sacred art (particularly music) as a tool for inner cultivation or spiritual development is?

Now I know historically the Taoists employed the guqin as a means of inner cultivation, but where does other music fall? For example, would Taoists find the listening of mantras, Gregorian chants, Sufi dhikrs/nasheeds/naats, or Indian ragas as a conducive aid to spiritual development? I ask because I know in some traditions, such as Sufism or various forms of Hinduism, music is seen as a valuable aid, whereas in Buddhism (at least for monastics) there is a precept against listening to music (whether that is strictly for secular music or also includes sacred music I am not sure.)

So yea, essentially how does Taoism view the aesthetic experience in relation to spirituality and what is the Taoist view on sacred art and music? Valuable aid or something to become detached from and done away with?

Any type of teaching certification will do when finding a job through a middle man company who hires you directly. Therefore you work as an employee of the company and they set up teaching contracts with a school. One, they sign a contract with you for their company, and then you sign one with the school. The company is your employer, not the school, so any problems one refers directly to their hiring company. This will get you a work visa, which allows you to live in China for a year, and can be renewed through that particular company.

 

Another way is to have a degree from Bachelors and up. This will give you a residence/foreign experts permit. You can find work individually and a school can hire you directly. Or, you can go through a middle man company as well.

 

Both options are good, first one is a bit safer, unless the second option has been worked out in full detail with the school concerning all types of living conditions and salary, etc.

 

Best position, if looking to study in a monastery, for the time being, get a job out here, be a resident/worker, connect with a monastery, and build good ties with them. Then pop the question about leaving the home life to them and how to go about doing it legally. Then you will have to go through the appropriate procedures for such things. :-)

 

I live and teach in China, and am here currently. I have a teaching cert. TEFL, and have been here since 2004. Came back to NY for 3 yrs '09-'11, and have no problems getting visas.

 

 

Another option...hahaha find a girlfriend, get married and get a family visa issued in china giving you residence for 1 yr, which can be renewed. But you can't work on a family visa, so it has to be changed to a work visa.

Thanks for the information, I will keep what you said in mind. It seems I have a lot on my plate to think about and consider; likely any action based on these ideas won't materialize for some time. Right now I am simply trying to become as informed as possible since I actually am serious about these matters.

As to the girlfriend option, I don't think that would jive very well with my ambitions to become a monk haha.

Well, if you want to start your spiritual journey and become a "monk" based on a lie with the authorities or overstaying your tourist Visa (this is what many young foreigner do in China) I would personally question your motivations in first place.

 

Sorry to be straightforward

 

Best

 

YM

I was speaking only in reference to teaching English, not becoming a monk. Based on what has been said to me both on this forum and others, I have my doubts about what China can offer me today in terms of spirituality, especially in regards to Taoism. Perhaps Chan Buddhism is worth a look, but who knows. I suppose I will only ever know for myself if I go there.

I suppose I didn't really see the issue as a lie since in practice this is how it is done, and rather than limit myself for my lack of a degree or spend 10s of thousands of dollars and years of my time obtaining a piece of paper solely for this purpose, it seemed simply a realistic choice on my part.

On a separate note, what is the situation with Tibetan Buddhism within China? I know due to recent history the political situation is probably tense, and I hear most people say forget about going to Tibet proper (hence why I brought up Dharamsala) but what about Tibetan minorities in Sichuan? Do any Han Chinese practice Vajrayana?

In China too, according to the law you need a degree to obtain a real Visa Among all the traditions you are interested in, and they are a lot (too many IMHO), I would say that Tibetan Buddhism has the greater amount of good teachers overseas. Just find one such group near to you and start to get acquainted but don't look too far, just take things easy and walk step by step. You will realize that most of the pre-conceived ideas you have might be totally wrong so, on the way, you will make HUGE adjustments to your plans Best YM

I hear officially you need a degree to obtain a visa, but in practice there are many individuals teaching there without a degree. I imagine if one were to receive the CELTA certification in China, it would be easy to go from there.

I suppose you could say that I am interested in too many traditions (really I am interested on an intellectual level in all sacred traditions), but really they could be lumped (as I did earlier) as Zen, Tantric Buddhism, and Taoism. I listed them all for the sake of discussion, at this point and based upon what I've been learning this past week or so, I'd say I am most interested in Tibetan Buddhism and Shingon in terms of actual practice. As you say, overseas and in terms of the wealth of information available, it seems Tibetan Buddhism is likely the obvious choice. Though I will continue to study and listen to my intuition.

Thanks again!

Are you white? Do you have a degree? Do you have a TEFL? YM

1. Yes, as white as they come (stereotypical Anglo-Saxon)

2. Nope

3. Plan on getting a CELTA as soon as I can save enough money

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@Walker. Thank you so much for your informative reply, it seems you've really covered most of what I was wondering about. I don't speak Mandarin aside from some basic survival level stuff, though of course I'd be willing to learn and confident in my ability to do so if the motivation is strong enough. I've worried about spiritual charlatans as I know they are out there, but I am fairly good at intuitively reading people so I hope that would help me in this regard.

Overall it sounds like finding an authentic Taoist spiritual environment is, much as I expected, not so easy and fraught with various complications. Honestly from what has been said it sounds the situation is quite bleak, especially for a foreigner like me who would have to do so much, including learning a whole language, just to have a (slim?) chance at being initiated into anything remotely authentic.

That being the case, I realize this is a Taoist forum, but would anybody have anything to say in regards to either Tibetan Buddhism or Shingon Buddhism? I know India has a 10 year visa available for Americans, so it could be quite possible to go to Dharamsala or elsewhere in India to study authentic Vajryana. Japan I imagine would be the most difficult to obtain a visa, especially since you need a degree to teach English in Japan (as far as I am aware.)

Of all my options--Taoism, Chan Buddhism, Korean Seon, Tibetan Buddhism, Japanese Zen, Shingon Buddhism--which has the most potential for actual growth and could be practical for a white Westerner to be accepted in?

To be honest, I am most interested in Tantric Buddhism, but I am not so sure I'd want to live in India (unless I am mistaken about the unpleasant nature of doing so.) I don't want to sound like the picky Westerner, truly I am quite Stoic and not afraid of lowering my current living conditions, but again I've heard plenty of horror stories about India. As to Shingon, well as I said Japan doesn't seem like the easiest place to go and I am not sure how accepting of Westerners they are.

Hopefully in time, being guided by intuition and further study, and with a bit of luck I will discover where I belong and become immersed in some serious sadhana. Any further input will be appreciated, and thanks again everyone.

Thanks for the information everyone, I will certainly take to heart what has been said. I've worried that the spiritual situation in China might not be that great in lieu of the trends of the 20th century. It seems much of the entire modern world is in a sort of spiritual decline or crisis where materialism is becoming the predominate paradigm and spirituality, especially of the higher order of esotericism and metaphysics, seems to be in decline.

As of right now, I basically have 4 primary spiritual traditions that I am interested in that can be lumped into 2 basic groups. Group 1 is Zen/Chan and Taoism, which I see in most ways to be compatible. I've long had an interest in Chinese culture and have had desires to teach English abroad, particularly in China. I figured I would use the visa from teaching English as a first step into China and go from there, seeing what I could find. I do like the idea of learning Mandarin compared to the language related to the other traditions (more in a second) and I also admit I have a particular love of the guqin which I'd like to learn, so that is yet another benefit to going to China for my interests.

The other group is Tantra, both Buddhist (be it Tibetan Buddhism or Shingon) and Hindu (Kashmir Saivist Tradition.) Now it may seem that these traditions are all quite different, but as I said I adhere to the Traditionalist school of thought and believe that each of these traditions are capable of imparting to their devoted followers the supreme realization or enlightenment. Within this second group, the main cons I see are that I'd have to go to India to study and though I've never been to India, I've heard plenty of horror stories in relation to the amount of poverty, filth, spiritual con artists, and frankly danger (malaria, rabid animals, etc.) Now one can't live one's life through the eyes of fear, but I still take that into consideration. Also learning Tibetan seems more difficult than Mandarin and also much more limited in application since really it can only be used for speaking with Tibetans and for Buddhism. Finally there is the option of Shingon, but I know Japan also has gone through heavy secularization and seems not so easy for Westerners to move to.

That is the gist of my situation and dilemma. For now I spend my time studying all I can and doing various practices in an attempt to discern a path or tradition to devote myself to entirely, but there is a lot to consider as I just explained. If anyone has any further remarks, either on the state of Taoism or these other traditions, feel free to share. I appreciate the dialogue.

Yes, there is a such Taoist Shrine for westerners to be a Taoist priest. However, one has to pay a high price for the cultivation.

 

"Are Westerners ever initiated into such teachings and do masters of such teachings still exist in mainland China today?"

You probably see nothing but westerners in the Taoist shrines in China.

Yea, this is exactly what I am trying to avoid. My inner calling is that of the yogi/ascetic/monk, thus I want to leave behind the world of money and finances to concentrate solely on cultivation and learning. I don't want to be the Western tourist seen as a source of money, I just want to incorporate the Tao into my life and learn from a master. It doesn't seem very aligned with spiritual teachings for a teacher to work for monetary profit (though I can fully understand why Chinese would want this to be the case in order to contribute to the economy.)

Is this sort of life impossible for a Taoist today? Would I be better off looking toward Chan Buddhism in such a case?

I was wondering if anyone can tell me what the situation with Taoist monasticism or asceticism in modern mainland China is like today? The reason I inquire is because for quite some time I've had the stirrings of a renunciate, and though I adhere to the so-called Traditionalist school of thought (Rene Guenon, Coomaraswamy, Frithjof Schuon, etc.) I feel most attracted to Eastern traditions. Within the Eastern traditions, I feel most attracted to Zen and Taoism, and the Tao Te Ching is my bible so to speak. Essentially I am chasing enlightenment and the normal goals of modern society such as financial success, rearing a family, or the pursuit of pleasure is of little interest to me.

So that being the case, I was wondering how alive Taoism is in China today and if it is possible for white Westerners to study Taoism or become a Taoist monk? I am not interested in the folk religion so much as I am philosophical Taoism, internal alchemy, qigong, and internal martial arts. Are Westerners ever initiated into such teachings and do masters of such teachings still exist in mainland China today? I wonder because I know China has gone through Maoism, secularization, and an anti-spiritual period, so I am curious as to how alive or efficacious the tradition is today.

Also, I am aware that this idea may seem fantastical, so please spare any practical advice like "just study where you are" or "you don't need to become a monk" etc. I have already taken these things into account, and while I cannot say that I am 100% certain I am going to become a Taoist monk in China, that is what I am primarily interested in learning more about from anyone who knows more about this subject.

I appreciate any input and thanks ahead of time.