Kongming

hmmm...no.  According to Eskildsen this quote belongs not to Qiu but to some anonymous commentator (page 94) 

 

 

Also what is described on that page above is not an exercise nor a method in our sense of the words but rather a record of of two individuals turning into dragons and other two jumping from a tower.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I was only aware that the quote was supposedly from the Dadan zhihi and hence was under the apparently mistaken impression that it was from Qiu Chuji.

Speaking of the Yijing though, I have never read it but apparently Liu Yiming has a commentary which was translated by Thomas Cleary under the title The Taoist I Ching. Has anyone ever read this work and does anyone recommend it?

I thought , strictly speaking, the Yijing was a Confucian text... and which the Yin-Yang school also used, as well as Daoist at some point.    But I've not really researched it enough to say with too much authority

I am not an expert on the Yijing, but I thought much of it predated Confucianism? In any case, it seems the lines between Daoism and Confucianism historically weren't very rigid as even in the Zhuangzi there is material which is Confucian in character. Some have tried to say that rather than being opposed that Confucianism is the Chinese "exoteric tradition" while Daoism is the Chinese "esoteric tradition." In such as case, there could be both exoteric and esoteric, i.e. Confucian and Daoist, ways of reading and interpreting the Yijing.

Actually I just tried finding it and discovered that it was on the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy that I saw the bit about Wang Bi stating Laozi's ideas were already contained in the Yijing:

Wang’s commentary on the hexagrams draws heavily from passages in the Daodejing and Zhuangzi . He uses major Daoist ideas to interpret the Yijing, culminating in his theory that change and dao are unified and his position that Laozi’s ideas are already contained in the Yijing. He appropriates the notions of being (you) and nothingness (wu) from the Daodejing and uses them in his interpretation of divination.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/wangbi/

 

its quite like saying that the electric bulb dates back to the iron age because it was then that glass and iron were first produced.

 

But i understand what you are saying, thanks.

That's only if we look at the surface and see neidan only having "influences" from the various ancient connections mentioned but accept that the core only came later.  In other words, it could be that the light of the light bulb was being produced prior to the accepted invention of the bulb, i.e. there could have been (and likely was in my opinion) an internal alchemic process of converting jing to qi to shen and thence returning to the Dao prior to the first dissemination of neidan texts during the Tang, using similar if not the same methodologies. Again, a broad study of various esoteric and spiritual traditions reveals that this is usually the case, namely that the codification in text comes later.

When contrasting the methods of neidan to other methods, such as the stillness or samadhi of various Buddhists and Daoists, Qiu Chuji seems to feel that this was the case (bold emphasis mine):

 

What is described above is “the Exercise of Refining the Spirit and Merging with the Tao, Abandoning the Shell, and Ascending to Immortality”, which arrives at self-so-ness. As for Buddhist monks who enter into samadhi and die while seated in meditation, and Taoists who enter into stillness and this send out yin spirits, these [spirits that they let out] are [nothing but] ghosts of pure vacuity and are not pure yang immortals. They are distantly faint with no appearance and in the end have no place to go to. Why do people who study [the way to immortality] make these mistakes? They especially do not understand that pure yang qi is born after the essence is refined and made into an elixir. After you refine the qi and complete the Spirit, the Realized Numinous Divine Immortal transcends the ordinary and enters into sacredness. You abandon your shell and ascend to immortality, and this is called “transcending and escaping”. This is the method of divine immortals that has not changed for a hundred million years!

I dont know what has Yijing to do with daoism at all but thats just me;)

Well I've heard some ancient Daoists (can't recall which, but might have been one of the Xuanxue folks like Wang Bi) claim that what is in Laozi is already present in the Yijing. Furthermore, scholars like Kohn and others note that the Yijing had immense influence on Daoism over its history, most obviously being used in alchemy and in relation to yin-yang. Other admittedly non-specialist authors but generally knowledgeable figures, such as Rene Guenon and others of the Traditionalist school, point out a relationship between Daoism and the Yijing.

why?

Judging by how esoteric and spiritual traditions work more generally. Often specific esoteric techniques, such as the case of neidan, have long secret histories before ever being written down, even if that writing is in a coded language. Furthermore it is known and accepted that many of the elements of mature neidan have much earlier origins, dating back to Ge Hong, Shangqing texts such as the Huang ting jing, etc.

Yijing is fairly new rather than primordial since its text can not be earlier than  f"ounding of the Shang dynastyvary from about 1760 to 1520 bce,"

That is true, which is what I tried to emphasize by stating it was a root of Daoism rather than the root of Daoism, perhaps a codification of earlier traditions. This fits in with my general opinion that many of the practices or currents which are dated to a certain period due to extant written or archaeological material likely have much older oral roots, such as neidan often being given a Tang Dynasty origin at earliest by some scholars but likely having more ancient origins.

In any case, does anyone have a source for the concept of the so-called 'Sons of Reflected Light'? I never heard of this while reading Daoist texts or scholarly works and only came across it on the internet.

Edit: As to those saying Daoism has its origins in the Dao, well that's a given considering everything has its origins in the Dao, and if the tradition associated with the Huahujing can be trusted, then the Dao is also the source of other wisdom/esoteric traditions such as Buddhism, Manichaeism, or even Hermeticism, etc.

Giving the Dao as the origin would likely make Daoism's origins fall into category 3 of my original post.

What are your thoughts on the origins of Daoism? I've seen three primary views, among some others, that people tend to put forth:

1) Daoism originating with Laozi/the Daodejing and later with Zhuangzi and other classical material (like the Huainanzi, etc.)

2) Daoism originating with Zhang Daoling and Tianshi Dao/Way of Celestial Masters.

3) Daoism being the primordial Chinese spiritual tradition, having its ultimate roots in prehistory and later among legendary sage-rulers like Fuxi, Huangdi, etc. In this scenario the Yijing is considered as a root of Daoism.

It seems different groups tend to emphasize one of these views over the others, with academics, esotericists, practitioners, and others having different views on the matter.

Of course, there's other more esoteric or questionable theories, such as Daoism being related to the Atlantean (or Hyperborean) tradition that spread into East Asia, some notions concerning the so-called 'Sons of Reflected Light', and the possibility of Daoism having some relation to Indo-European spiritual traditions, transmitting to the Chinese and their native shamans through the Tocharians/Da Yuezhi (I think Victor H. Mair may have conjectured something along those lines.)

I'm personally partial to number 3, which could possibly be related to some of the more esoteric or questionable theories above. This view would fit in with what appears in Thomas Cleary's translation of The Book of Balance and Harmony introduction:

Ironically, one of the most comprehensive descriptions of Taoism as it is understood in advanced Taoist circles can be found in a Buddhist text, the Avatamsaka-sutra or Flower Ornament Scripture, which is held to contain the totality of all religion:

 

The various methods and techniques if the enlightened adapt to worldly conditions in order to liberate people. The enlightened provoke deep faith by being in the world yet unaffected by it, just as the lotus grows in water yet water does not adhere to the lotus.

 

With extraordinary thoughts and profound talent, as cultural leaders, like magicians the enlightened manifest all the various arts and crafts if the world, like song and dance, and conversation admired by the people.

 

Some become grandees, city elders; some become merchants, caravan leaders. Some become physicians and scientists, some become kings and officials.

 

This Buddhist scripture uses the same idea to explain one of the most ancient associations of Taoism, that of the originators of civilization itself as people of higher knowledge attained through extradimensional awareness: "If they see a world just come into being, where the people do not yet have the tools for livelihood, the enlightened become craftsmen and teach them various skills." From this point of view, the Taoist vision of ancient Chinese culture heroes as esoteric adepts is more than a pleasant myth. In essence it means that Taoism is not, as usually thought, a product of Chinese civilization. Rather it is the other way about--Chinese civilization was originally a product of Taoism in the sense that like all successful original cultures it was initiated and guided by people in contact with the Tao or universal law.

 

Extravagant as this idea may seem to modems who conceive of ancient humans as semiconscious primitives who somehow slowly evolved by fits and starts into civilized nations, it nevertheless explains something about the concentration of knowledge for which neither written history nor conventional psychology can account. It also means that the fundamental nature and mission of Taoism is not Chinese; again, as the Flower Ornament Scripture says, "All-sided goodness abides by reality, not in a country. "

Your thoughts?

I was reminded of this verse from the DDJ while watching that video (Johnathan Star translation):

 

Verse 50

 

Again and again

Men come in with birth and go out with death

One in three are followers of life

One in three are followers of death

And those just passing from life to death also number one in three

But they all die in the end

Why is this so?

Because they clutch to life and cling to this passing world

I hear that one who lives by his own truth is not like this

He walks without making footprints in this world

Going about, he does not fear the rhinoceros or tiger

Entering a battlefield, he does not fear sharp weapons

For in him the rhino can find no place to pitch its horn

The tiger no place to fix its claw

The soldier no place to thrust his blade

Why is this so?

Because he dwells in that place where death cannot enter

I think there is a childlike quality (or perhaps infant-like) quality to the Daoist sage, insofar as their minds are empty, pure, and immaculate like a newborn's, unconditioned and without judgement. Then again, the reality is children are mostly without self-control, emotional, demanding, lack independence, etc. whereas these qualities would be absent in a Daoist sage.

When I experienced my Kundalini energy rising some 20 years ago, I had a vision dream.  It was nothing Buddhist or Hindu.  I saw myself as a Han dynasty scholar and warrior dressed in the traditional Han clothing.  I did a MCO in the dream literally using my own body.  I woke up with a kundalini energy rising experience.  I am ethnic Han Chinese.  I studied neither Taoism or Buddhism prior to my Kundalini energy rising experience.  During the past years, I have  been having countless of dream visions about various sambhogakaya beings...from a Quan Yin like figure, to an Ayran/Hindu looking abbot monk, to a Han Chinese Taoist immortal with a glowing white chest.  

That's interesting that you mention dream visions, because I had one that pointed me in the direction of China (and I believe Daoism) despite the fact that I am an ethnic Westerner. Essentially in the dream I was in an all golden hall with golden flowers as the decorations on the walls (which I later interpreted as connections to the "Yellow Court" and "The Secret of the Golden Flower") and then I picked up a music playing device in which a Chinese woman sang lines or instructions to me which said something along the lines of "Dive deep within and learn to know yourself; silence your mind and keep it silent and you will divinize your mind and become like a god." (Later interpreting the "god" aspect more along the lines of a  真人 or a 仙人.) There was a sense of awe both in dream and upon waking.

So while I was already studying various esoteric topics and had an interest in both Chan and Daoism, it wasn't until this powerful dream vision that I decided to begin learning Mandarin and focus my efforts in that direction.

Not to go off topic, but has anyone else had any dreams or dream visions that helped or guided them?

Thanks for all the replies in this thread. For me the question has been a tough one. While it isn't essential to pick one and discard the other and while many have emphasized the unity of the three teachings, for those who are actually interested in ordination and priesthood/monkhood, one would obviously have to choose one or the other.

I personally love the wisdom found in both, particularly in Chan Buddhism on Buddhism's side. As to practices, I suppose neidan interests me most, but I am also interested in mijiao, i.e. mantra practice.

I can say that I plan on continuing to study both throughout my life, but I've long been attracted to the idea of becoming a priest/monk someday and thereby devoting my entire life to a particular path. Perhaps what matters most is meeting a true master.

I've long wondered about this myself. It seems Chan and Daoism have some relationship, though different scholars view the matter in different ways, i.e. Ray Grigg in his The Tao of Zen and Mu Soeng in his Trust in Mind: The Rebellion of Chinese Zen seem to argue for a strong Daoist influence on the formulation of Chan/Zen, the former going so far as to say Zen is essentially Daoism in disguise. Others seem to disagree and state that Chan stands on its own, especially at the core, and was merely influenced by Daosim via the geyi or concept matching that occurred when Buddhism first started entering China. 

In any case, from what I've read it appears Quanzhen and hence neidan must have some Chan influences, both for Wang Chongyang and Zhang Boduan.

What I wonder is what the relationship between neidan and mijiao or Tangmi or East Asian esoteric Buddhism, i.e. mantra practice, "proto-tantra", etc. would be and if the two would benefit or mutually support each other. For example, the Cundi sadhana has remained popular in Chinese esoteric Buddhism down the centuries. Could such a practice be used in conjunction with neidan? Would it assist at all or would it hinder?

This brings in the more broad question of to what degree each path, the Buddhist and the Daoist, can be traveled at the same time without confusion. The whole tradition of "unity of the three teachings" that many great masters endorsed makes it seem like this would be so, but are there any famous examples of masters who essentially practiced both?

Of course it is. The Dao is the Divine, the Absolute, the transcendent source of all reality which simultaneously interpenetrates all of reality. Everything or the cosmos, which is "all things", doesn't exhaust the Dao therefore since it also transcends and is the fount of all things, i.e. the Dao is no-thingness as well as all things.

One could therefore say everything is sacred, but the quality of everything or the Dao being sacred isn't just an intellectual attribution we give to it, nor is it an emotional quality. Rather, those with direct knowledge or experience of the Divine, which in the case of Daoism would be the "zhenren" or "true/perfect/realized man", the sage, the immortal, understand at an intuitive and primordial level this quality of sacredness. In other words, unless one obtains an experience, knowledge, or union with the Dao, calling it sacred will be just a name (even if it is true), whereas direct knowledge or experience of the Divine is what lends true meaning to words like "sacred" or "holy" or "numinous" and is the origin of those words in the first place.

Plato and Aristotle argued for a type of Natural Law based on eugenics and slavery of the non-whites - using the wrong music theory to enforce it.

 

This is also based on the caste system of the Brahmins as Professor Bruce Lincoln has pointed out.

 

Obviously you're being sarcastic - the white culture has spread around the planet as the monocultural farming system - Earth has about 20 years left of freshwater due to the monocultural wheat farming and intensive water use from cattle ranching - big concentrated herds, etc. - that is wiping out the planet's life support ecological balance.

 

Of course there is huge denial about this from all the racist mainstream corporate news that blames the victims of slavery, etc.

 

Like when I posted about chocolate farmers using child slavery and another poster said the farmers should be punished.

 

But that slave labor system was set up by white colonialism creating export monocultural farms - not the traditional polyculture of Africa.

 

So rather it's the fault of the whites - who should pay enough money to the farmers so they don't have to use slave labor.

 

Originally the slave labor was enforced by white colonialism.

 

Instead a typical racist taobums poster wants to blame the victims - why? Due to mass mind control.

 

Taoism is not in line with this white monocultural "Oneness"

Yeah yeah, white people are uniquely evil and the cause of all the problems on this Earth...yawn. Such a tired meme at this point.

And I wasn't being sarcastic. I'd agree that modern civilization is destructive but not solar, patriarchal, or Indo-European civilizations of the ancient and medieval worlds (or other non-Indo-European civilizations of the same, like ancient Egypt, traditional China and Japan, etc.) In any case, certainly a discussion for a different thread and time.

What does any of this have to do with Daoism and Neoplatonism? Perhaps the mods should split your conversation on race and skin color into another thread.

In any case, patriarchal solar traditions and civilizations (such as the various Indo-European civilizations of history) are the best bruh.

Some observations:

Sex is discussed as part of human nature, which it certainly is, and yet overcoming the sexual drive, lust, and loss of jing or vital essence in order to cultivate spiritual power and eventually attain liberation has been emphasize by Daoists (many classical Daoists, Shangqing Daoists, Quanzhen Daoists), Hindu yogis, Buddhists, Christian mystics and monks, Neoplatonists, various alchemists, etc. One wonders why this trans-cultural and trans-religious phenomena would be so widespread if not for the very reason that these various seekers discovered through first hand experience the negative and dissipating effects of sexual intercourse and lust in general.

Furthermore, if one is following the spiritual path, the goal isn't to be a good human and therefore follow human nature, but rather to transcend the human state, to become more-than-human, and hence the elimination of various "human" elements such as emotionality or lust.

As to the specific political use of stimulating the human passions for control, the video I posted earlier speaks of some examples of such a use. Whether there is some Illuminati behind this process or just various governments, or whether there is no nefarious plot at all but its just the condition of our age, it is still something that should be recognized for those seeking to attain self-mastery and spiritual attainment.

I think the biggest problem in this area is delusion and self-deception. Sex is among the most powerful drives and perhaps the greatest intoxicant--as a Hindu text the "Avadhuta Gita" states: 

 

 

15.  There are three kinds of wine, produced from syrup, grain and honey.  But the forth, the dark wine of sex has intoxicated the whole world.

Hence most people, especially those pursuing some spiritual path, when confronted with the fact that the might have to conquer and control their sexual drive rather than being at its mercy, and when the idea that they might have to forgo this pleasure for the greater bliss of the Absolute, often become defensive and try to rationalize any way they can why this isn't the case and why they should continue down the normal human path.

Now of course this doesn't mean no one should ever have sex, but specifically for those who consider themselves spiritual seekers and are serious about the matter, it might be worth investigating why all those yogis and masters of the past emphasized the need for abstinence.

Thanks for this, its pretty fascinating and I was completely unaware of the topic you are discussing prior to encountering it here. 

That said, I was mostly thinking about the relationship and compatibility of Neoplatonic and Daoist metaphysics, ontology, soteriology, cosmology, mystical practices, etc. In short, their core mystical or esoteric view in relation to man, the Absolute, man's ultimate destiny and goal, how to approach the ultimate, etc. Are you aware (or is anyone else) of any information relating to this material?

Is anyone sufficiently versed in both traditions and their doctrines to speak on the compatibility or harmony possible between Neoplatonism (especially of Plotinus but also in general) and Daoism? How close to each other do both traditions seem to be? Do you think a Daoist would benefit from studying Plotinus and Neoplatonic material?

Is anyone aware of any articles or books which compares, contrasts, or speaks of the relation between Daoism and Neoplatonism?

Discussing Daoism in relation to the Western traditions most influenced or closely related to Neoplatonism, such as Hermeticism and Western alchemy, is also welcome.

I agree with you, though there is just as much to do with the spiritual aspects of our age as the promotion of such behavior in order to control people:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga#Attributes_of_Kali_Yuga

Some more:

The scriptures like SB 12.2 teach that during the age of Kali, humanity deteriorates and falls into barbarism. Humans begin to kill animals for food. They fall under the spell of intoxication. They lose all sexual restraint. Families break up. Women and children are abused and abandoned.

 

Increasingly degraded generations, conceived accidentally in lust and growing up wild, swarm all over the world.

 

Marriage ceases to exist as a holy union - men and women simply live together on the basis of bodily attraction and verbal agreement, and only for sexual pleasure.

 

When women become difficult of control, heartless and quarrelsome, and calumniators of their husbands, then know that the Kali Age has become strong. When men become subject to women and slaves of lust, oppressors of their friends and Gurus, then know that the Kali Age has become strong. 

Of course the Kali Yuga as conceived of in Hinduism has its exact parallel in other traditions, like the Dharma Ending Age of Buddhism, Hesiod's Iron Age, the notion of Ragnarokkr as the "Twilight of the Gods" in Norse traditions, and among Daoists as well who posited a primordial Golden Age of the past to which humanity has and continues to decline from. All the various notions of a final avatar (Kalki, Second Coming of Christ, the Mahdi, Maitreya, the Saoshyant, the King in the Mountain/sleeping hero, Daoist Millenarianism, etc.) are related to this notion.

Regarding the use of lust and the passions as a form of control as per the OP, people may be interested in this talk, though the author is coming from a Catholic rather than Daoist or Eastern perspective on the issue:

Thanks for the further suggestions. Another inquiry came to mind--is it feasible or contradictory to practice mikkyo or Shugendo in conjunction with Daoism or with one primarily following Daoism? I know historically Daoists have, at various times, used Sanskrit mantras and mudras, and I know that Michael Saso is involved with both Daoism and Tendai. Shugendo apparently has those affiliated with either Buddhism or Shinto, and as mentioned has Daoist elements as far as I am aware (I believe Yin-Yang, Wuxing, etc.), so a Daoist venturing into Shugendo seems feasible based on these grounds.

The reason I ask is because while I am attracted to both (Quanzhen/Neidan and Mikkyo), I also don't want to fall into some weird New Age mishmash that is counterproductive rather than truly transformative. What are your thoughts on the compatibility and mutual application of Daoism, particularly Quanzhen, with mikkyo and/or Shugendo?

Thanks for the replies fellas, I will have to look further into the resources you mentioned. 

As to Francois Lepine, I don't get the best vibe from the man, seems very "New Agey" and not very legitimate, traditional, or profound based upon my limited observations, but who am I to judge whether he is authentic or presenting authentic teachings or not? Ultimately his teachings or particular system don't interest me, I was just curious whether anyone knew if the visualizations that he has described for the mantras/mudras of kuji-in were the real deal or not.

Definitely seems more esoteric than Buddhist oriented...so if that's your thing, that might be a worthwhile life goal.

Yes, I've been interested in Shugendo since I first became aware of it, though my primary interest is Daoism, and of the living traditions of the latter, Quanzhen/Neidan. That said, I am also highly interested in Mijiao/Mikkyo/East Asian "tantra"/esotericism and thus the combination of that element with Daoist principles and practices via Onmyodo into Shugendo makes Shugendo an area of interest for me. Unfortunately all of the aforementioned interests are esoteric and likely require initiation, lineage, a teacher, etc. and I don't have one, so I just do what I can on my own in preparation for if and when I do find that.

For those interested in Shugendo as well, here's an interesting video I came across a while back dealing with the topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCrbE2eEt64

Anyone know where to find any information on authentic kuji-in and related Shugendo/mikkyo practices? I ask because this seems to be a fairly obscure subject area, at least the material available digitally and in English, and some of the source material I've encountered seems questionable. 

For example, for those who know about this topic, is kuji-in really an authentic mode of spiritual practice employed by Shugendo practitioners? I know from my limited readings that these practices are differentiated from the esoteric practices within Tendai and Shingon, though related. It seems kuji-in is popularly associated with ninjutsu, but this doesn't really interest me so much as its traditional association with and use by Daoists, the Onmyodo in Japan, and Shugendo practitioners.

I've come across information dealing with the mantras, mudras, etc. but am unsure about some of the accompanying visualization I've happened upon on the net. Namely, one Francois Lepine who calls himself "Maha Vajra" has many visualizations attending the mantra/mudras for kuji-in described on websites, books and even youtube videos, and yet there seems to be no way to know if this is authentic to Shugendo/mikkyo or not.

In any case, if anyone has any relevant information, input, experiences, reading recommendations on the aforementioned subject matter, namely kuji-in and Shugendo, I'd be glad to hear whatever you can share.

I am a tea lover, but am uninitiated into high mountain oolongs. What is the particular benefit of these teas over any other? I ask because my experience is mostly limited to greens, which is what I predominately drink.

Drinking tea, I find I am attracted to the relaxed and calm state of mind tea produces, and I will often drink my tea after a meditation session. Since I've read that theanine is what is responsible for this relaxed state, I sought out which green teas contained the most theanine. Gyokuro was often cited, but this is quite expensive for daily drinking, so I discovered kukicha or Japanese twig tea which was a cheaper source of high-theanine tea (also apparently has many health benefits.) Hence this has become my primary tea, but being a tea lover am curious to explore more. Any recommendations?

Finally, know of any further reading on tea as a spiritual cultivation?

Interesting discussion to say the least. What would happen if we narrowed the discussion down a bit and compared Daoism and Ch'an/Zen? Are these two more intimately linked than Daoism is with other sects of Buddhism? Are they after the same goal? How compatible are they?

For those Zennists on board or Daoists interested in Zen, why did you choose to focus on one over the other?

Different lineages go after different things. Some Taoist lineages pursue trying to preserve some sense of individual identity after death by creating a subtle body or preserving some individualised consciousness in the soul or astral bodies, which can then remain in other dimensions after death, so in that sense a separate individual immortality is aimed at, (even though those sorts of bodies have to perish in the end so they aren't really immortal they just last a really long time).

 

Some Buddhist lineages also create bodies such as light bodies, but getting to the heart of it that sort of pursuit would still be regarded as limited by Buddhists because essentially you are trying to preserve an element of separate ego, so the sense of identity even in those subtle bodies and realms can be awakened out of and transcended into a place of greater freedom. So it can be considered that being at one with existence is the place of true immortality because as long as anything exists you exist, yet it is not an individual immortality it is shared with everything, which is why the ego doesn't like it.

 

Whether true Taoism is about individual preservation or individual immortality or it is about transcending all individualism i'm not sure. Chan masters come out on the transcending individual side but not all Taoist paths do.

This is something I've been contemplating myself lately. It appears that, as you say, Daoists associated with neidan and Quanzhen wish to create some sort of subtle body that will survive death, and it seems highly individualized. This does seem quite a bit different than Chan's intuiting of our primordial original nature or "Pure Mind", Buddha Nature, the Absolute, etc.

Then again, I am still not sure if the neidan ideals are different or not. They claim an association with Chan for starters. Second, you often hear them speak of our "primordial nature" or "original nature" much in the same manner. Figures like Liu Yiming and others even go so far as to quote Bodhidharma in a manner by saying "xin (mind, heart-mind, etc.) is the Dao and the Dao is the xin." Then there's the whole famous idea of transmuting jing to qi to shen and then to emptiness--the final stage being described as emptiness sounds quite a bit different than some highly individualized or egoic subtle body. Thomas Cleary's book Vitality, Energy, and Spirit contains this excerpt from a text attributed to Lu Dongbin:

"Whenever I see those whom the vulgar call devotees of the Tao, I find that all of them seek to be taken in by spirits and immortals, or they seek lasting life and preservation of wealth by the practice of material alchemy or sexual yoga. When it comes to the great Tao of true eternity, pure and open, tranquil and dispassionate, there are few who are interested in it."

Perhaps someone with more knowledge of neidan and its goals can elucidate these points and possible differences further.

With all that said, is it the case that Daoism (specifically neidan/Quanzhen but also in general) aims for the same end state or goal as Buddhism (namely Chan, but also in general) does in your opinion?

In other words, when reading Chan masters like Huineng, Huangbo, Linji, or texts like the Xinxin Ming and Song of Enlightenment, how much of this material is applicable to Daoism as well?

Some questions I have about Neigong. I realize these are a lot of questions, so feel free to answer as many or as little as you wish. If you can recommend any good books or other sources that I can read to answer these questions myself, that would also be appreciated.

1) What is the origin of Neigong and its relation to Daoyin? Were these practices used by Daoists for health purposes or for spiritual purposes or both?

2) Is Neigong part of the practices used in Quanzhen Daoism, Longmen pai or otherwise?

3) What is the relationship between Neigong and spiritual practice, be it sitting in meditation or neidan?

4) Is Neigong associated with Wudang? Is Wudang primarily martial arts oriented or are there Wudang practices or aims that are of a purely spiritual or esoteric purpose?

5) What are some of the best resources (books, videos, etc.) to learn about authentic Neigong?