Kongming

Would that be the case there would not be 3 names

Well I can't recall the exact source, but I believe I read Liu Yiming in some Fabrizio Pregadio article (or perhaps Pregadio himself) stating that they three are actually different aspects of one "thing", I'll have to see if I can find the citation.

Anyway, what spurred my question was contemplating how various traditions, specifically Pratyabhijna or Kashmir Shaivist philosophy, but also Chan depending on how you read it (concepts of One Mind, etc.) claim that all of reality is consciousness or exists within consciousness/awareness. The Daoist tradition of course tends to say that all of manifest reality is qi, with the most purified and subtle qi being heavens, deities, etc. and the coarsest being matter, but all qi nonetheless. This got me thinking about the relationship between the two views and how Daoist's view consciousness/awareness. 

I've seen some Daoists speak of the Dao mind (道心) and even say a variation of Bodhidharma's famous statement with, "The Dao is the Mind and the Mind is the Dao", but I am still unsure on how Daoists view the topic, specifically consciousness or Mind's relation to qi.

Precelestial Shen is not a consciousness.

What is it described as then? Non-consciousness or unconsciousness? Of course when speaking of consciousness in these contexts, sometimes regular or human consciousness, such as the consciousness skandha in Buddhism, is seen as being "anatta" or not myself, of a lower and corruptible sort, but then there's also a higher consciousness or Mind too, so it gets confusing.

What is the relationship between qi/chi and consciousness or Mind? It's often said that jing, qi, and shen (which is seen as consciousness, spirit, or mind) are actually one. Does this mean that qi is related to, possesses, or actually is identical to consciousness?

On the topic of qi, is anyone aware of a good study of the topic from a Daoist perspective which perhaps might go in greater depth than is typically found, i.e. an entire article or book devoted to the topic?

Thanks.

Another interesting finding I figured I'd share, from an old book on Yoga in its various forms across the world by William Joseph Flagg discussing the impersonal trinities in Daoism and in Plotinus:

As for the Celtic, Germanic, etc.. traditions: they are as exotic to the modern West as the Chinese or Indian ones are. Because it is the Greek philosophy that evolved into the logic, science, technology, that shaped our world; not them. So what has been said earlier applies to them too.

First let me say I appreciate your reply and agree with the content of your post, and the portion about Western spiritual exile is part of but not the only reason I created this thread. I've noticed a lot of Westerners interested in Eastern traditions sometimes also want to become Easterners and strip themselves of everything Western, but I somehow I feel this is a mistake. It's interesting that when the Chinese and Japanese, for example, received Buddhism, they made this Indian religion Chinese and Japanese respectively, whereas it seems there is none of this occurring with the transmission of Eastern traditions into the West in modern times. Perhaps the general nihilistic and materialist atmosphere that pervades in the West today is preventing this, but ideally what should happen would be for the introduction of these Eastern traditions to be able to provide a means of awakening the spirit that animated the ancient and to lesser extent medieval Western world, whether Greek, Roman, Germanic, or Celtic.

As to the point about the Celtic traditions being exotic, I suppose I would agree in part. From what little can be gleamed about the ancient Druidic lore, it seems they were roughly the equivalents to the Brahmins and also shared similar beliefs (indestructibility of the spirit, transmigration, etc.) When one considers the similarities between the Neoplatonic tradition and the Vedic/Upanishadic tradition, one then can assume that the Celts likely also fit into that general schema and therefore wouldn't be entirely exotic.

The Germanic traditions largely find their expression in a modified Christian form in medievalism and the heroic tradition therein, perhaps also the German mystical tradition of Eckhart, Tauler, Suso, Cusanus, Boehme, and Angelus Silesius, being as different from mainline Western Christian material as it is, could be a continuation of the old Germanic mystical tradition, which later found expression in a purely philosophical form within German idealism.

My thought is that all of these things we can look at today are really just remnants and reconstitutions of something much older.

Yes, this could all be fragmented remains of a the Primordial Wisdom as it were, or as per the philosophy of the Sophia Perennis, the similarities among the traditions of diverse people can be the results of mystics, yogis, occultists, and sages of different groups encountering the same objective structures of reality; likely it is a case of both of these factors.

That said, what I wonder is for a Westerner interested in Daoism or an Easterner interested in Western traditions how useful and fruitful such comparisons can be for ones own spiritual quest and whether they can be made in earnest without too much of it being a rough approximation or guessing. Say for example a modern Westerner interested in or studying/practicing Daoism who encounters the examples I mentioned earlier of the Jade Emperor or Kunlun could think, "Yes, this is also what my own ancestors understood as Zeus/Odin and Olympus/Asgard" and thereby not only reinvigorate and give greater meaning to those old but largely dead traditions, but also maintain a sense of history and Western-ness while doing so (or vice versa for the Easterner interested in Western traditions.)

On more correlations, how could I forget this one:

Many say that the concept of chi/qi is roughly equivalent to the ancient Greek concept of pneuma, but I never investigated the latter in enough detail to say whether it is or not.

I wonder also if the Anglo-Saxon concept of "wyrd" has a Daoist equivalent:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wyrd

For those Westerners who are interested in or consider themselves Daoists (or Easterners interested in Western traditions), have you ever done a comparison of Daoism with the various Western traditions such as European (Greco-Roman, Germanic, Celtic, etc.) paganism, Platonism/Neoplatonism, Hermeticism, Western alchemy, or Christian mysticism? If so, what did you uncover? Did you find such a comparison useful to your own quest?

For example, do you think one could see chief deities such as Zeus or Odin as rough equivalents to the Jade Emperor? Mountains like Olympus as rough equivalents to Kunlun?

Perhaps we could use this thread to not only discuss the usefulness or ones thoughts on the matter, but also ones findings.

I haven't done extensive research into this area, but here are some interesting things to consider that I've mulled over the past few days:

--In Germanic mythology, cosmology begins with the Ginnungagap or Great Yawning Void, which is similar to how the Dao was conceived in its Absolute aspect (Wu.) Later, with the meeting of two opposite but complementary forces or "realms" of Muspelheim and Niflheim or fire and ice, the world begins to form. This concept of course is quite similar to yin and yang. Finally, the myths of the giant Ymir and Chinese Pangu are roughly equivalents.

--It has been noted that the philosophy and metaphysics of Plotinus and Neoplatonism are markedly similar to Daoism (as well as Vedic/Upanishadic lore), both being a species of monism/panentheism and emanationism  with similar mystical concepts regarding the One.

--Hermeticism and the Western esoteric tradition in general place a strong emphasis on the importance of the macrocosm-microcosm, just like Daoism. Furthermore, Hermetic alchemy and Daoist neidan are considered quite similar to each other, such as both seeking the elixir of life and transmutation of the human condition. From Daoist Alchemy in the West: The Esoteric Paradigms by Lee Erwin:

 

The Five Agents are a product of the deeper Yin-Yang dynamics which originated as a relationship between Yang (light, breath, movement, male heaven) and Yin (darkness, bodily stillness, female earth) in the midst of which emerged the Human (jen) realm of mediation and synthesis. This tripart division of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth each have their correspondent rulers, spirits, and powers. The interactive dynamics of Yin-Yang integration emerges from the Primordial Breath (yuanqi or taiji), the creative energy of Being, which is itself is born of wuqi (Highest Non-Energy). These correlations, which are many and highly diverse within various Daoist systems, were further correlated with the eight trigrams and the sixty four hexagrams of the Yijing, accompanied by multiple Daoist commentaries, associated with many diverse deities, and strong emphasis on astral influences of the Big Dipper constellation (Thunder Magic). All of these associations were tied to ritual and magical practices carried out by trained Daoist masters who were experts in the esoteric lore and visualization techniques of Daoist alchemy and ceremonial invocation. [32] This correlative approach is highly congruent with the western Hermetic tradition rooted in a similar correlative cosmology based in early Greco-Roman alchemy, based on five elements (earth, water, air, fire and aether) transmitted through Islamic alchemical traditions in the form of alchemical and Hermetic cosmological texts which were translated into European languages during the Italian Renaissance. The Hermetic texts were primary sources for western esoteric theories of the prisca theologia and the philosophia perennis and were clearly an early, comparative resource for the esoteric reading of translated Daoist texts. [33]

 

Renaissance correlative cosmology was highly visual (graphic arts) and imagistic in mapping the body, for example Robert Fludd’s microcosmic “atmospheric” depiction of the body or various Kabbalistic theories of the body, in ways more detailed and elaborate but similar to Daoist theories of the “landscape of the body” which contains a multitude of sacred beings, astrological energies, and a tripart division of upper, middle and lower chambers, each with its ruling spirits and cosmological correlations. [34] Renaissance esotericists also used number schemas to elaborate their cosmological symbolism encoded in archetypal patterns of three, seven, nine and twelve, as do many of the Daoist masters, particularly using schemas of three, five, nine, and twelve. Western esotericism has many hierarchical systems in organizing its cosmology as do the many Daoist schools where various planes correspond to specific orders or powers or deities, linked through correlative relationships forming a “chain of being” between the different orders, as illustrated in ~Cornelius Agrippa’s De Occulta Philosophia (1533) and similar to many Yuan dynasty Daoist texts. [35]   However, Daoists have tended toward a less rigidly structured hierarchy and have been tolerant of diversity among the various Daoist esoteric schools. [36]

 

Many texts on Daoist alchemy share resonances with Western esoteric, hermetic practices including the refinement of material substances through various stages of transformation, a search for an immortal elixir or “cinnabar pill”, use of an hermetic vessel or cauldron, occult animal and talismanic (fu) symbolism including special magical scripts, the use of mineral, vegetable and pharmacological substances, secret or orally transmitted instructions (later written down), the use of esoteric visualization (tsun), breath and movement techniques,  reclusive withdrawal from the world, fasting and asceticism, the significance of dreams and a general visionary epistemology, as well as the elusive search for varying degrees of immortality, a particular goal of Daoist practice. Magical practices, with invocations, sacred circles, geomantic inscriptions, carried out with magical implements like the staff or sword, with incense, bells, and chanting are also common aspects of both Daoist and Western esoteric techniques. [37] It was the religious and magical techniques of Daoism that strongly attracted the interests of certain western esotericists, much more than the strictly philosophical texts of early classical Daoism. Mythical stories and imagery, dragon bones and water fairies, the golden peaches of immortality from the gardens of Hsi Wang Mu (Queen of Heaven), as well as the reputed occult powers and abilities of the Daoist masters or “immortals” (xien), both embodied and disembodied, resonate well with the imaginative worlds of western esoteric, magical thought. The Daoist emphasis on “internal” (neidan) alchemy or the distillation of the "Golden Elixir" (jindan) based on ritual, meditation and breath techniques for personal spiritual transformation, as compared to the more “external” (waidan) laboratory practices, also resonated well with late 19th century magical society practices that emphasized personal transformation while the mingling of both alchemical aspects was common in western esoteric traditions. [38] 

Also, some snippets from Girardot's Myth and Meaning in Early Daoism: The Theme of Chaos:

Please do share your own thoughts or findings in these areas.

So perhaps the real question is: What can we do right now to help that change come about?

In my opinion the best way to bring about real change in the outward world is to change ourselves, namely to produce more enlightened sages. The influence of the sage is what brings about real positive change and a restoration of the true order, but modern secular culture doesn't consider this an important goal at all generally, and certainly doesn't see this goal as having the possibility to bring about positive changes on a social and political level rather than just on an individual spiritual level.

Beyond that, if we take what the ancients said about human decline seriously that I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, we can see that the disorder of modern society is due, beyond just a loss of a sense of the sacred, to the loss of the previous hierarchical structure that existed in the ancient world and traditional societies in general. What is missing in our society is the two upper castes of traditional societies or variations on same, i.e. a true sacred caste (Brahmins, Druids, Priests, etc.) and warrior-nobility caste (Kshatriya, Knights, Samurai, etc) or, in a slightly different model, something similar to the literati nobility of old China. In other words, we just have a mercantile caste ruling us (corporations, banks) who treat man as a mere economic unit and thereby man's sacred and noble nature is suppressed, and certainly has no real presence in the mechanisms of government or society.

While coming from a specifically Hindu perspective, Prabhupada discusses this point here in this video (ignore the silly title of the video) starting around 3:10 in:

According to neidan literature, Quanzhen, etc. what exactly is the relationship between the Yangshen or immortal body and the Dao as Absolute? Does the practitioner "merge" into the Dao, does his sense of self get annihilated? Or is it that something remains, a sort of "fusion without confusion"?

Furthermore, what is the relationship between what is variously termed Mind or Atman, awareness, etc. pure consciousness and the Yangshen? We know that in Zen, other forms of Buddhism, and Vedanta, liberation is a matter of realization or awakening, of dispersing ignorance through enlightened wisdom of our true nature. How does this compare with neidan conceptions?

It is known that reverting shen to the Dao or Void is part of the neidan process, but what does this entail? Quanzhen, discussing the difference of their path with that of Buddhism, emphasized the ability to manifest the yangshen, with a famous story being of Lu Dongbin (I believe) and a Buddhist monk manifesting and Lu Dongbin being able to eat and drink while the Buddhist was only able to gulp air or something like that. What is the significance of this? 

According to Daoism and other traditional teachings, this happened to humanity:

See also:

Kali Yuga:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali_Yuga#Attributes_of_Kali_Yuga

Dharma Ending Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ages_of_Buddhism#Latter_Day_of_the_Law

Hesiod's Iron Age:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man#Hesiod.27s_Five_Ages

The Norse notion of Ragnarok, beyond just meaning the end-times, also has the connotations of "twilight of the gods" or the decline of the gods in the life of men. Also the Abrahamic notion of the fall from paradise is a related notion of the decline of the spiritual state of mankind.

I've heard from some that the jian sword is important to Daoism: it features in liturgical rituals, Lu Dongbin carries a jian, Zhang Daoling also has a jian, and of course there's martial forms some connect to Daoism such as Taijijian. Baolin Wu has a book entitled "The Eight Immortals' Sword of Pure Yang" which apparently deals with the jian as a tool for spiritual development, though I've heard some say the book is filled with much fiction.

In any case, is anyone aware of the position of the sword in Daoism and where one might be able to read more?

Also, did I accidentally post this topic in the Daoist Textual Studies subforum or did a mod move it here? I just ask because my original intention was to post it in the Daoist discussion forum.

Anyway it seems to me that you have asked a question in your OP but not really - a "trick" question for which you think you already have the answer.

 

It seems you want to debate your position. haha. That is very funny indeed.

My original question (the relation between mystical experiences and the spiritual path, how they are viewed and what they are called) and what we are discussing (the nature of time and becoming in relation to the end or ultimate goal of the spiritual path) are two different things, so I couldn't have wanted to debate under the guise of asking questions.

In any case, I offered those statements and inquiries not out of debate or wanting to assert my position, but merely to better understand what you were trying to tell me. I will give your material a further read when time permits.

That said, perhaps we come from different modes of understanding because you seem to rely on or place value on science, quantum or otherwise, in your way of approaching and understanding metaphysics, spirituality, esotericism, mysticism, etc. whereas I tend to avoid science all together when approaching these areas.

none.

With aversion, disgust and sadness.

I somehow doubt with a religious tradition spanning anywhere from 2000-5000 years or more (depending on how you view the origins of Daoism) with such varied currents that the answer can be this simple. One glaring example otherwise would be the Yellow Turban movement which was related to the Tianshi Dao and based around the Taiping jing that certainly engaged in warfare, and I believe Zhang Lu, supposed grandson of Zhang Daoling, killed a rival in order to establish his theocratic Daoist state in Sichuan during the Three Kingdoms period.

While I am sure that Daoism, like all sophisticated religious and philosophical traditions, prefers and emphasizes peace and non-violence, I somehow doubt that they had absolutely no connection with any martial, warrior, or heroic traditions and viewed all of them with aversion and disgust always.

As far as I know, the DDJ is also against weapons and war, but it also states that when their use is unavoidable that the best way is use them with detachment (rather than hatred or anger) and to not celebrate victory.

What is the relationship between Daoism and the warrior ideal? Is there a true Daoist equivalent to the Zen-inspired (and to a lesser degree, Shingon-inspired) samurai ideal outside of the popular image of various wuxia novels and films? How has Daoism treated the warrior and battle historically and how has Daoism viewed a warriors death in battle?

As mentioned, in popular wuxia material like Legend of Condor Heroes, Daoist figures like the Quanzhen Perfected Seven were transformed into great martial arts heroes, and this precedent of Daoist warrior heroes goes back even further, say like Gongsun Sheng from the Water Margin. However, does anyone know how historic Daoism, such as Huang-Lao, Tianshi, Shangqing, Lingbao, and Quanzhen viewed the position of the warrior and the hero?

Is there any connection in the Daoist viewpoint between the warrior, or his implements such as the sword, and spiritual growth/practice?

Obviously many martial art traditions, especially Neijing, are connected with Daoism, but I've heard claims that this connection is tenuous and not a true historic reality.

In short, please discuss anything and everything regarding Daoism's relation with the warrior spirit and its relation, if any, to the spiritual path.

Just a few points to address or make comments on:

So, for example, if you study the book "Measuring Meditation" by Bodri and Nan it's clear that to empty out the various levels of consciousness actually also includes the consciousness of the universe as well.

Well I suppose this depends on how you define "universe." Typically when one says universe they mean the cosmos, namely space-time, whereas the experience I am speaking of is that which transcends space-time, yet also encompasses it as well.

At the end of the Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality book the final state, after countless physical bodies and miracles are obtained, is that the golden immortal body vaporizes into pure qi that scatters into the formless universe - but that qi can later manifest into whatever physical form the universe wants it to take.

So the end of all that hard work is a dispersion of this pure qi into formlessness and then still being dependent on an external will or process (manifesting into what the universe wants)? Isn't this a lack of freedom, being dependent on the flux of changes and manifestations the universe wants to take? Also where does awareness or Mind or Atman fall into this notion?

For example the OP says - the "obvious truth that 2 plus 2 equals 4" - but this is not so obvious when you take into account music perception - for example in the natural resonance the octaves actually expand as a spiral so that an octave as 2 does not have quite the double value as 1 nor does 4 quite have the double value of 2.

I was just using this example as a way to illustrate the seal of certitude or reality of the experience, i.e. it was so real that everything else in the mundane world, even mathematical truths, could be seen as less real or possibly called into question in comparison.

That means there's no center to the Universe - there is no End or final Emptiness to enlightenment - the energy is constantly transforming.

What you seem to be saying here sounds like pantheism to me, or that the universe, again space-time, is all there is, especially since to transform requires before and after, or in other words depends on time. It seems various other mystics and sages from all traditions (including Daoism) have spoken of entering timelessness, a transcendent level or state where all time and hence the flux of becoming has ended. The energy still does constantly transform, but this occurs at the lower level of the immanent universe and in the personal experience of the non-sage, whereas the inner state of the sage even while in this lifetime on Earth brings transcendence into immanence. Meister Eckhart described this state here:

"There exists only the present instant… a Now which always and without end is itself new. There is no yesterday nor any tomorrow, but only Now, as it was a thousand years ago and as it will be a thousand years hence."

This Daoist teacher here also describes this situation which he refers to at one point as "another dimension":

easy. The thing is it was not the ultimate, at all but a mere illusion. maybe a spectacular illusion, but still..

Excellent point. Any such percieved experience is not the primordial, but more the (local) mind translating an overwhelming flow into something that the mind can handle/comprehend. If one "sees" it or "hears" it, then one is not "being" it.

I can agree that such an experience might not be the ultimate, but I don't know if one could call it an illusion entirely either. I didn't want to put too much of my own personal experience into this question to keep it more neutral and based on generalities, but I had such an experience in the past which prompted me to devote my life to these matters. And yet I am no sage, no Buddha, not enlightened, not liberated, etc., indeed I have plenty of faults and struggle to attain self-mastery.

That said, on reality vs. illusion, the experience I had was so powerful (the most meaningful thing to occur in my life) and so real that I've often described it to friends in the past like it was as if everything could be called into question, even obvious truths like 2+2=4, but never the truth and reality of this experience, which had a seal of certitude to it that is quite beyond description. So if it was illusion, then I could only conclude that all is illusion, which indeed does seem to be the position held by some traditions or figures.

If it were my lone experience that would be one thing, but it seems that many others have had descriptively identical experiences, and furthermore after the experience suddenly metaphysical or sacred texts suddenly made sense. So it seems there is a commonality involved here. Furthermore it involved conceptions or experiences that I was previously unaware even existed or were possible, namely the experience of timelessness/changelessness and transcendence of space, etc.

That said, again I remain an unenlightened mortal with plenty of faults and weaknesses and don't see myself as much more either. So is there any explanation for these experiences other than it was all a grand illusion? If it was illusion, does it lose its meaningfulness or importance? If all is illusion, doesn't even things like beauty or sacred scriptures or the teachings of the sages and all else also lose their meaning? 

I know one shouldn't be overly attached to experiences, however grand, and in general I am not, but my main confusion lies on how to understand it.

Thanks for the help and if anyone else has had similar experiences or questions about these experiences, do share.

It's interesting that, at least in Hindu systems and perhaps for Buddhists too, samsara is becoming, and so liberation is the end of becoming, i.e. entering timelessness/changelessness. Similarly for Daoism, neidan or otherwise, transcending space and time is seen as the ultimate end or goal. Christian mystics, Sufis, Neoplatonists, Hermeticists, etc. have also mentioned these things.

So it seems this is seen as the peak or ultimate of many traditions. How then is it possible that some people directly experience or see this, and yet do not right then and there become liberated, Buddhas, Daoist perfected/celestial immortals, etc.? Could it be that people who have experienced this have had an initial awakening as per the Chan/Zen tradition that needs to be followed up with gradual cultivation? Do people who have had such experiences belong to a new ontological status as it were, perhaps something akin to the so-called "stream enterer" in Buddhism and/or being an ariya rather than a puthujjana?

I suppose what confuses me is how one could have a glimpse at the ultimate as is reported by these mystical experiences people have had and yet remain mere mortals or unenlightened, non-liberated, subject to fear and delusion, still able to commit moral faults, etc.

How should one understand a mystical experience that doesn't lead to enlightenment? In the context of the various Eastern traditions (Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism), how would such an experience be understood in relation to the spiritual path in general and what are some possible names for these experiences?

Here of course I am talking about spontaneous mystical experiences which occur to some people that make them take the spiritual path more seriously and which can alter their entire perception of reality. These experiences often aren't the result of any particular practice and sometimes can even happen to non-believers/materialists/atheists, etc.

An important concept in many traditions and especially in Eastern traditions is transcendence, here of space and time, but also individuated consciousness or ego. Let's say someone had an experience of complete transcendence of time, space, ego, etc. which is sometimes how samadhi is described, but also did not become permanently enlightened, still committed moral offences, etc. How should this be understood? What is the significance of such an experience?

Has anyone here had a mystical experience such as this, spontaneous or otherwise?

In short, can we have a general discussion of mystical experiences and their relationship to enlightenment or spiritual perfection? Please share any thoughts on the topic.

I also love Chinese landscape paintings. Here's some interesting quotes on them I figured would be worth sharing since it relates them to Daoism.

From John Blofeld's book on Daoism:

 

Into these dragon veins pours down yang ch'i

(cosmic vitality) to mingle with the yin ch'i (vitality of earth).

Invisible to the ordinary eye, these veins can be detected by men

learned in the science of yin and yang. This concept is clearly

reflected in Chinese landscape painting, in which the veins are

delineated as great sweeping curves marked at their source by the

contours of the clouds, then by the undulations of mountains and

hills, and finally by the meanderings of rivers or some other landscape

features. Gazing at these paintings or at actual views in the

more scenic parts of the globe, one can almost feel the power

streaming downwards and impregnating the surroundings with

vibrant energy.

 

There are other ways in which paintings convey Taoist concepts

more directly than verbal description, especially the idea that the

entire cosmos is formed of spirit. The voidness of the· non-void is

hinted at by vague expanses of ocean, snow, cloud and mist, and by

solid objects which seem just on the point of emerging from or

melting into the void. Man's triviality in relation to heaven's vastness

is suggested by rolling landscapes in which mortals and their

dwellings appear insignificant against the grandeur of their surroundings.

Mountains appear cloud-like; clouds resemble mountains;

rocks and tree trunks seem strangely animated, as though

peering at the viewer or smiling; or the contours of men and animals

are so united with those of natural objects that they appear to be of a

single substance. Apparently trivial objects- say, a dragon-fly

perching on a twig - arouse a sudden intuition that each tiny

creature is a particularisation of a vast and holy universality, an embodiment of the inconceivable immensity of the Tao.

 

Everything seems imbued with a portentious mystery on the very point of being

unveiled; an eerie feeling is aroused that everything in nature is

vibrantly alive. From all of this one is led to understand that the

cosmic vitality sweeping down through the dragon veins spreads out

and interfuses the entire creation.

 

The Taoist artist deliberately leaves his work unfinished, that the

viewer may complete it from his own intuition. Just as, in Ch'an

(Zen), an apparently nonsensical set of words or sudden action may

bring about an extraordinary communication from mind to mind, so

do paintings of this kind sometimes cause an illuminating blaze of

intuition to leap into the beholder's mind and he is conscious of

being touched by the flow of cosmic energy communicated by the

painting.

From Julius Evola's introduction to the Daodejing, which was published in English as a sort of pamphlet or stand alone 'mini book':

 

This is the first   characteristic of the 'Far Eastern Weltanschauung; it has a superhuman purity and traits which are essentially metaphysical.
Therefore a Westerner must realize that  what he may be inclinced to see as "naturalism," is rather a Weltanschauung proper to a humanity which was somehow still connected to the origins, or to "supernature" in a direct and existential fashion, and not through theories, revelations, or religions strictly speaking (religio from religare, namely to reconnect what was already, separated), as it was the case in later stages or cycles of civilization.' . This is the key to understand the true nature of Far Eastern spirituality as well  as its specific expressions such as the artistic ones (e.g., painting, in which "nature"  is portrayed in an evanescent way, hinting to an ethereal, metaphysical "emptiness").

And on a similar note, from another Traditionalist, Frithjof Schuon:

 

As for the Taoist landscapes, they exteriorize a metaphysic and a contemplative state: they spring, not from space, but from the "void"; their theme is essentially "mountain and water" and with this they combine cosmological and metaphysical aims.  It is one of the most powerfully original forms of sacred art.

Finally, to share a few examples:

I can't follow you here. If the East was so steadfast in its spiritual/traditional world view, why was it swayed by Western innovation at a much faster pace eventually?

 

Also, the Catholic Church lost some of its fierceness in its fight against occult tradition after the Renaissance, with the awakening of modern science which is the child of Hermeticism (although a "rebellious" one).

When I said the East was steadfast, I wouldn't imply that the traditional or sacred mode of perception was completely intact, just much better than in the West where over the past few centuries a complete loss of the sense of the sacred has taken place. In other words, the concept of the sage (rather than mere saint) wasn't completely lost like in the West outside some esoteric orders. Liu Yiming and other Daoists, as well as various Chan Buddhists, were known to complain about the perceived degeneration of their respective spiritual traditions when compared to the heights of the Tang (for Chan) or early Song (for neidan.) In other words, the same roots were in place both East and West, but the West was first to manifest the outward symptoms over a longer period whereas in the East they lay dormant.

Reading Guenon or the other Traditionalists would give one a much better insight into these matters than I can provide. Specifically this book may be of interest:

http://www.amazon.com/East-West-Rene-Guenon/dp/0900588349

In a sense the Dao Bums is a refugee camp for people fleeing this Western reductionism, which they mistake for reason, which is why "reason" and "rationality" and "intellect" are all pejorative terms around here, even though if seen in their original senses, not their post 1800 senses, they would not be.

Interesting you say this, especially regarding the intellect. Frithjof Schuon mentions some interesting insights on the intellect (and metaphysics vs philosophy) in this short citation:

In order to define clearly the difference between the two modes in question, it may be said that philosophy proceeds from reason (which is a purely individual faculty), whereas metaphysic proceeds exclusively from the Intellect.

 

The latter faculty has been defined by Meister Eckhardt—who fully understood the import of his words—as follows: ‘There is something in the soul which is uncreated and uncreatable; if the whole soul were this it would be uncreated and uncreatable; and this is the Intellect.’

 

An analogous definition, which is still more concise and even richer in symbolic value, is to be found in Moslem esotericism: ‘The Sufi (that is to say man identified with the Intellect) is uncreated.’ Since purely intellectual knowledge is by definition beyond the reach of the individual, being in its essence supra-individual, universal or divine, and since it proceeds from pure Intelligence, which is direct and not discursive, it follows that this knowledge not only goes infinitely farther than reasoning, but even goes farther than faith in the ordinary sense of this term.

 

In other words, intellectual knowledge also transcends the specifically religious point of view, which is itself incomparably superior to the philosophic point of view, since, like metaphysical knowledge, it emanates from God and not from man; but whereas metaphysic proceeds wholly from intellectual intuition, religion proceeds from revelation.

 

The latter is the Word of God spoken to His creatures, whereas intellectual intuition is a direct and active participation in divine Knowledge and not an indirect and passive participation, as is faith. In other words, in the case of intellectual intuition, knowledge is not possessed by the individual in so far as he is an individual, but in so far as in his innermost essence he is not distinct from his divine Principle.

http://www.sophia-perennis.com/philosophy/meta_philo.htm

Thank you. Being ignorant of any sources to that effect i have to subscribe to the theory of  radical differences between the oriental and the western psyche, the latter evolving from an ancient one that made yoga unnecessary or impossible, to the modern one that while craving the oriental fads is unable to digest them.

I'd say the perceived difference between Western and Eastern psyche isn't so much geographical, racial, or cultural so much as a difference between a modern and traditional psyche. The origins of the divergence can be traced in various lines to various points in history, but until the High Middle Ages the Western and Eastern psyches weren't so different. It was through the trajectory of the rise of nominalism, the rise of secular humanism, the Renaissance, the Protestant revolution, and thereafter the scientific revolution, the so-called 'Enlightenment era', the industrial revolution, and thereafter the rise of Marxism, Darwinism, Freudianism, relativism, and materialistic atheism that the Western and Eastern minds diverged, the latter remaining rooted in ancient, spiritual, and sacred conceptualizations with the former transforming from the same mindset to the modern one. In other words, this was a process of centuries involving many factors and spiritual and intellectual movements. While the divergence begins in the Middle Ages, from my perspective the 18th century and onward the divergence becomes especially pronounced and accelerates.

I (and others, like Rene Guenon, Ananda Coomaraswamy, etc.) attribute this trajectory not to something inherent within Western culture or people or mindset so much as the progress of spiritual forces at work in history, namely the so-called Kali Yuga/Dharma-Ending Age/Iron Age of Hesiod, etc. This is why these trends have ceased to be a merely Western phenomena and have spread across the globe with such ease.

So, as noted at the start of my post, the difference isn't East vs West so much as traditional vs modern. It is interesting that what took the West centuries has happened in the East at a much faster during the past century or two, which shows that the same roots or spiritual decline that took place in the West were also present in the East, albeit to a lesser degree, probably due to the East focusing on the production of sages whereas Christianity only reserved this area for a small elite of mystics (often treated with suspicion) and with the increasing anti-Hermetic/alchemic/occult stance of the Catholic Church after the Renaissance, forcing those Western sages underground.

To my mind yoga is not about the body or its postures or movements. Yoga is what you do with your mind. A formal exercise. Indians have it. Greeks dont. Instead of a formal exercise regimen the Greeks offer righteous conduct, some asceticism, some meditations (as in thinking things over). No exercise.

I wouldn't say this is necessarily the case. The Neoplatonists had exercises, primarily of an apophatic or emptying nature, and later Neoplatonic theurgy and ancient Greek alchemists had exercises of one might call a 'yogic' type, or at least esoteric/occult. The ancient Greeks also had various 'direct introduction' initiations within the various mystery traditions, such as the Eleusinian mysteries. Later the Greeks, after converting to Christianity, had a variety of exercises that one can read about in the Philokalia and other texts (some of which likely had antecedents in ancient Platonic exercises), with the primary focus being on hesychasm, a repetitive prayer akin to Sufi dhikr and Hindu/Buddhist mantras.

Take this example from Evagrius Ponticus speaking on prayer:

The way of prayer is twofold; it comprises the practice of the virtues and contemplation.

 

When the soul has been purified through the keeping of all the commandments, it makes the intellect (nous) able to receive the state needed for prayer.

 

Prayer is the communion of the intellect with God. If you wish to behold and commune with Him who is beyond sense-perception and beyond concepts, you must free yourself from every impassioned thought.

 

Prayer is the flower of gentleness and of freedom from anger.

 

Prayer is the ascent of the intellect to God. If you long for prayer, renounce all to gain all.

 

The state of prayer is one of dispassion, which by virtue of the most intense love transports to the noetic realm the intellect that longs for wisdom.

 

If the intellect has not risen above the contemplation of the created world, it has not yet beheld the realm of God perfectly. For it may be occupied with the knowledge of intelligible things, and so involved in their multiplicity.

 

When you are praying, do not shape within yourself any image of the Deity, and do not let your intellect be stamped with the impress of any form; but approach the Immaterial in an immaterial manner, and then you will understand.

 

You cannot attain pure prayer while entangled in material things and agitated by constant cares. For prayer means the shedding of thoughts.

 

Psalmody calms the passions and curbs the uncontrolled impulses in the body; and prayer enables the intellect to activate its own energy.

 

Prayer is the energy which accords with the dignity of the intellect; it is intellect's true and highest activity.

 

Psalmody appertains to the wisdom of the world of multiplicity; prayer is the prelude to the immaterial knowledge of the One.

 

Spiritual knowledge has great beauty; it is the helpmate of prayer, awakening the noetic power of the intellect to contemplation of divine knowledge.

 

Blessed is the intellect that, undistracted in its prayer, acquires an ever greater longing for God.

 

Blessed is the intellect that during prayer is free from materiality and stripped of all possessions.

 

Blessed is the intellect that has acquired complete freedom from sensations during prayer.

Edit: The works of Algis Uzdavinys are worth investigating for those interested in these matters.

Despite the reputation of the European middle ages as a dark epoch, there was a "small renaissance" occurring with the influx of that kind of knowledge as passed on by the Arabs via Spain and Sicily, and revolving around minds like Roger Bacon, Raymond Lull and Albertus Magnus.

I am personally of the opinion that the European Middle Ages' reputation for being a dark epoch is unfounded and that an influx of knowledge from the Islamic world isn't the only bright light or even the primary source of light or 'renaissance' during the period. A good book in this regard is Those Terrible Middle Ages: Debunking the Myths by Regine Pernoud. 

After all, the Middle Ages produced Gothic architecture, Gregorian chant, European polyphony, various advances in technology, great literature and poetry, and a variety of great philosophers and mystics, such as John Scotus Eriugena, the Victorines, the author of the Cloud of Unknowing, Dante, Meister Eckhart, Johannes Tauler, Nicholas of Cusa, etc. along with esotericism surrounding the Knights Templar, the Grail cycle, and medieval alchemy/Hermeticism.  All and all a great era, and as once Juan Donoso Cortes praised that civilization:

Place people in sight of the pyramids of Egypt, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a grand and barbarous civilisation.” Place them in sight of the Grecian statues and temples, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a graceful, ephemeral, and brilliant civilisation.” Place them in sight of a Roman monument, and they will tell you, “Here has passed a great people.” Place them in sight of a cathedral, and on beholding such majesty united to such beauty, such grandeur to such taste, such grace to such delicacy, such severe unity to such rich variety, such measure to such boldness, such heaviness in the stones, with such suavity in their outlines, and such wonderful harmony between silence and light, shade and colour, they will tell you,

 

Here has passed the greatest people of history, and the most astounding of human civilisations: that people must have taken grandeur from the Egyptian, brilliancy from the Greek, strength from the Roman, and, beyond the strength, the brilliancy, and grandeur, something more valuable than grandeur, strength, and brilliancy — immortality and perfection.

In any case, regarding the original topic, I doubt Daoism is an offshoot of earliest Buddhism, but it could have had contacts with some Indo-European spiritual tradition via the Tocharians that may have influenced it and hence would have been related to the spiritual family that gave birth to Buddhism, but even that is conjecture. Often when people encounter similarities in spiritual or esoteric traditions, they ask "Did this influence this?" when it might not be a matter of influence but rather different traditions and people encountering the same truths, the same obstacles on the way to that truth, the same intuitions about reality, etc. Hence to so-called Sophia Perrenis and the striking similarities between the heights of truth found in Daoism, Buddhism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christian mysticism, etc.

Paradises of various sorts are all memories of both celestial states of being and the so-called Golden Age (Hesiod) or Satya Yuga of Hinduism, and in turn memories of when men 'walked with the gods', i.e. when humanity had a stronger connection with the Divine (or Dao, etc.) during the primordial past (antediluvian periods, etc.) The Edenic paradise is another variation on this theme, as are memories of Atlantis, Hyperborea, etc. or memories of the ancient sages of Daoism. Mountains like Kunlun, Olympus, and Meru, as well as paradisal lands such as Avalon, Elysium, Tir na Nog, Annwn, Atzlan, Airyanem Vaejah, Asgard, and Penglai are also related to this, albeit often associated with postmortem states, reflecting the non-earthly or transcendent nature of these paradises.

Henry Corbin, in his book Cyclical Time and Ismaili Gnosis touches upon this situation from a Mazdean/Zoroastrian perspective and is worth quoting here:

A little manual of Mazdean doctrine, written in Pahlavi and dating from the fourth century of our era, contains a number of questions the answers to which everyone over the age of fifteen is supposed to know. The first questions are : "Who am I and to whom do I belong? Whence have I come and whither am I returning? What is my lineage and what is my race ? What is my proper calling in earthly existence? Did I come from the celestial world, or is it in the earthly world that I began to be? Do I belong to Ohrmazd or to Ahriman? To the angels or the demons?"

And here are the answers :

I came from the celestial world (menok), it is not in the terrestrial world (getik) that I began to be. I was originally manifested in the spiritual state, my original state is not the terrestrial state. I belong to Ohrmazd (Ahura Mazda, the Lord Wisdom), not to Ahriman (the Spirit of Evil and of Darkness); I belong to the angels, not to the demons. I am the creature of Ohrmazd, not the creature of Ahriman. I hold my lineage and my race from Gayomart (primordial Man, Anthropos). My mother is Spandarmat (Angel of the Earth), my father is Ohrmazd. The accomplishment of my vocation consists in this: to think of Ohrmazd as present Existence (hastih), which has always existed (ham e-butih), and will always exist (hame-bavetih). To think of him as immortal sovereignty, as Unlimitation and Purity. To think of Ahriman as pure negativity (nestih), exhausting himself in nothingness (avinbutlh), as the Evil Spirit who formerly did not exist in this Creation, and who one day will cease to exist in Ohrmazd's Creation and who will collapse at the final time. To consider my true self as belonging to Ohrmazd and the Archangels (Amahraspandan).

Hence paradise is at once an ontological state that can be reintegrated into (apocatastasis, enlightenment, etc.) and a collective memory of the deep ancient past when men's spiritual faculties were much greater, strongly contrasted with our own time, namely the Kali Yuga.

And the second:

 

In order to make sense of the doctrine of immortality, which is shared by Taoism and by other Eastern and Western initiatory schools, it will be useful to compare it with the religious views expressed by Christianity as a way of example, According to Christianity every soul is immortal; immortality is the soul's substance and it is taken for granted. The issue, in Christianity, is not whether the soul survives death, but only the way in which it will survive, namely whether it will obtain bliss in Heaven or suffer the eternal punishments of hell. Thus, the believer's main concern is not to escape death, but to avoid the fate of hell, and obtain the-rewards of Heaven for his immortal soul. Thus capsules the Christian conception of "salvation."

 

The initiatory doctrine views the matter in quite a different way: the problem is not how the soul survives, but whether it survives. The real alternative is between survival and nonsurvival, since survival and immortality are not taken for granted, but are seen as a simple and unusual outcome. According to Taoism, almost everybody is inscribed in the Book of Death. In some exceptional eases the Ruler of Destiny cancels a person's name from this book and inscribes it instead in the Book of Life, which contains the names of the Immortals. It would be easy to indicate the correspondences of this anti-democratic view of immortality with other traditions which express it in the inner content of their own myths. It suffices to mention the idea found in ancient Hellas of the double fate-incurred by the "heroes" who are destined to attain the almost Olympian seats of the immortal gods and by the oi polloi. But in-esoteric Taoism, besides this doctrine, there is a body of techniques which has to be applied in order to obtain the privilege of immortality, by inducing a change of state, namely the previously mentioned "transformation."

 

A second difference between initiatory doctrine and religious exotericism is that while according to the latter the soul enjoys immortality upon becoming detached from the body, Taoism upholds the seemingly bizarre idea that immortality should be "constructed" in the body and through the transformation of the body'. This idea, which is also found in other initiatory and mystery teachings, finds a favorable context in the metaphysics of the Far East. This metaphysics, beginning with the comments found in the I-Ching, has ignored the dualism of body and soul, of spirit and matter. In this context, birth has been conceived as the passage of a being from the invisible and formless state to the visible and formal state. Corporeality has likewise been conceived merely as existence in a form, or as an exteriorized existence. The latter has been explained as the coalescence, or bonding, of the spiritual element. In order to explain the ensuing change of state, some symbolic and corporeal images have been provided, such as that of the fixing of spirits or "breath" or the coagulation of the subtle and ethereal substance (khi). In its deepest meaning, the fixing consists in the identification of being with a formal existence. The formal, exteriorized existence is then caught up in the current of transformations, and thus becomes subject to the crises proper to every change of state, as well as to the process of exiting a state (dying) in order to enter a new one (being born). It seems natural that this crisis can have destructive consequences for those who have become fixed in a form, that is, in the bodily state. Having failed to preserve and having "dissipated" the sense of the One or the Essence, such a being cannot survive, but will repeatedly "enter -and "exit" the life stream, though nothing permanent will survive. According to Taoism, his being, as an individual, will disintegrate. At the moment of death, since the metaphysical principle is clouded, the various forces (portrayed as many entities residing in the body) kept together in the bodily organism, and in general, in the human personality, become free and cease to supply a foundation to consciousness and to the sense of continuity of the individual Ego.

 

This is an extremely realistic, and the digressive background on which the esoteric doctrine of immortality is articulated. According to this doctrine, immortality must be elaborated in the body while one is alive (dying before one's time is thus considered a disgraceful circumstance), on the basis of an ontological and existential transformation taking place in the condition of the formal existence. Immortality does not mean physically escaping death, but rather avoiding altogether the crisis which, in the case of ordinary people, is connected to the transformation or change of state (hua).